I’ll take a story lifted from a Scientology front with a grain of salt.
Etaco I think scientology is a load of crap. I don’t know what that guys relationship to the scientologists if any is.
What I do know is I grew up and went to school in an adjacent school district and I have freinds who went to that school district or adjacent ones. I do know that the practice of coercion by the schools in that area is or was commonplace because I know people who have been through it.
That’s why I’m raising this issue now. Because I’ve seen it in action and I am thoroughly disgusted by it.
Make no mistake what the school did to that kid was not legal. The school official who was not a doctor had no business demanding that kid be put on drugs, she was practicing medicine without a license, which is illegal.
The supreme court has established that a public education is a civil right. When schools tell parents that their kid can’t attend school, unless they are drugged, they are denying people their civil rights.
An even bigger issue is the court (which in that area is heavily biased in favor of the schools) taking sides with the school and helping them violate that kids civil rights. An independent judiciary is the entire basis of a fair legal system and in Oakland county they are not independent.
Oh, boy…
There is ALWAYS “something” missing with an emotional (albeit warranted, because of the death of a child) presentation like this.
I was left with the following questions:
This child had to be more than just “gifted”.
He most likely was highly disruptive.
He was on a high dose of medication, and was obviously disruptive enough that the School system used its resources to assure that he could at least function.
-
Why would a School System “want” a child to take medication if they were just “gifted”? They would do all they could to put him into advanced classes or suggest alternatives to Public Schooling.
-
Since 2000, a LOT has changed. I simply don’t think that a School System “forces” anyone to give their child meds (I question if that was even the case in 2000). However, if that “gifted” child is highly disruptive to the education of other children, the parents may be asked to either Home School the child or look at other options.
(Note: There are THOUSANDS of School Systems, so I will not get into any arguments about what YOU have seen. This is MY experience with the systems I’ve dealt with).
- Related to #2, why didn’t the parents take him out of a System that just wanted to a)“drug” their child and b)didn’t recognize his “gifts”?
Put him in a Private Setting. Home School him. Do ANYTHING to protect your child that you feel is being “killed” and/or are forcing you to “kill” your child.
This is the point that I simply can’t rectify in my mind.
There is a lot about this case we are NOT hearing, most likely because the School System and various individuals can’t speak because of a) privacy issues and/or b) litigation.
Welcome to America…
Mufasa
Related to the “Spike Shooters”…
Unless this works out to be one of the most unusual cases in Modern American History, 7-11, “Biotest”, (and most likely Tim and others), have been served or will be served, with Lawyers already lying out their case of “it all being about protecting the Children”.
For which I call “BullShit”…
“Show me the Money”…
Mufasa
Damn kids! There is NO WAY that Spike will make it through the border now! I was just talking about ordering a new bunch. Mine lasted quite awhile too because I would only take it on a day I felt lethargic to boost my motivation. Worked like a charm too.
I found the effects to be quite mild though. I did, however; feel focused. The other energy drinks don’t do that and are loaded with sugar…no thanks. I drink a pot of coffee in the morning so perhaps that is why I don’t get the major kick that others do.
[quote]Bittabit wrote:
Damn kids! There is NO WAY that Spike will make it through the border now! [/quote]
I’ll PM you with my address so you can put a second address on the box if it doesnt get through customs…
If he was taking ADD meds caffeine could give him some serious trouble. But that’s something that people taking medication should know about.
Mufasa I can understand where you are coming from. Living in America we have it drilled into our heads right from childhood that there are civil rights laws that place strict limits on what the government can get do. If I didn’t know people who have been through the things I am writing about I would be a bit incredulous also.
Having known people who have been through this has been real eye opener. While it is amazing the things that schools will try and even more amazing the things that they can and do get away with. It should be no surprise.
America’s schools have been a civil rights battle ground for a long time. With school administrators trying all manner of immoral acts. This is a historical fact.
One of the smartest people I know is a judge who is in his eighty’s, here is something interesting I learned from him. A persons IQ does not change from childhood to adulthood. If a person has a high IQ it will be present as a child.
Because of this it is possible for a child to have a higher IQ than their teachers. This is why it is very common for gifted students to be labled learning disabled by their teachers. It can be very boring for a gifted student to sit and listen to a lecture from someone with a much lower IQ.
I’ll give you an example, Einstein as a child was considered to be retarded by his teachers. If Einstein were to grow up in America today he most likely would be placed in special ed. They might even have fed him ritalin causing him to lose ten percent of his brain mass. An interesting point to ponder is could he have come up with special relativity or E=mc2 with ten percent less brain mass.
For an adult with an average IQ it can be a real blow to their ego to encounter a child who has a significantly higher IQ as their student. It is much easier for that adult to say the reason why that kid isn’t paying attention in class is because they have some kind of brain deficiency rather than admit they are outclassed by their student. In such circumstances it becomes an easy cop out to say the kid has add and needs a pill to make them pay attention.
For a child with a really high IQ to interact and socialize with their peers can also be awkward. Because at an intellectual level their peers really aren’t their peers. If you add in the lower maturity level of children this can be a volatile situation.
This can easily result in a gifted child being taken to a psychiatrist or a psychologist who might be another adult of average intelligence. So what happens here is the kid doesn’t want to interact with the shrink much because they can tell this guys another idiot or at least that is how it appears to the kid.
So the shrink looks at the syptoms: kid doesn’t get along well with other kids, doesn’t want to make small talk with him or play with the stupid toy he’s dangling in front of him, but ask the kid about a subject he’s interested in and he dissertates like a college professor. So the shrink says Eureka! this kid has high functioning autism.
Which is a lot easier to tell a parent than, your kid has nothing wrong with him. But compared to your kid I have the IQ of a head of lettuce you have the IQ of a banana and compared to him normal kids his age are borderline retarded which is making it difficult to fit in.
Sifu:
My first read of your post had me saying “Did he really mean to say what I just read”?
However, I respect a person for giving something some thought, which you have done.
I need to ponder your post and give it some more thought before I respond.
Mufasa
Has anyone else seen the new warning label. I guess that will capture everyones attention.
New warning on Spike shooters
NEVER EXCEED ONE CAN DAILY.
I think they may have combined the Spike with something. In high school, guys would take crap load of ritalin, redbull, anything. I used to suck back redbull like nothing. Then I found Spike and was essentially addictied to that stuff for a little bit. I use the caff free version now.
It easier for them to blmae it on Spike than to look into a drug problem. And if they did just drink Spike then fuck em.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Mufasa I can understand where you are coming from. Living in America we have it drilled into our heads right from childhood that there are civil rights laws that place strict limits on what the government can get do. If I didn’t know people who have been through the things I am writing about I would be a bit incredulous also.
Having known people who have been through this has been real eye opener. While it is amazing the things that schools will try and even more amazing the things that they can and do get away with. It should be no surprise.
America’s schools have been a civil rights battle ground for a long time. With school administrators trying all manner of immoral acts. This is a historical fact.
One of the smartest people I know is a judge who is in his eighty’s, here is something interesting I learned from him. A persons IQ does not change from childhood to adulthood. If a person has a high IQ it will be present as a child.
Because of this it is possible for a child to have a higher IQ than their teachers. This is why it is very common for gifted students to be labled learning disabled by their teachers. It can be very boring for a gifted student to sit and listen to a lecture from someone with a much lower IQ.
I’ll give you an example, Einstein as a child was considered to be retarded by his teachers. If Einstein were to grow up in America today he most likely would be placed in special ed. They might even have fed him ritalin causing him to lose ten percent of his brain mass. An interesting point to ponder is could he have come up with special relativity or E=mc2 with ten percent less brain mass.
For an adult with an average IQ it can be a real blow to their ego to encounter a child who has a significantly higher IQ as their student. It is much easier for that adult to say the reason why that kid isn’t paying attention in class is because they have some kind of brain deficiency rather than admit they are outclassed by their student. In such circumstances it becomes an easy cop out to say the kid has add and needs a pill to make them pay attention.
For a child with a really high IQ to interact and socialize with their peers can also be awkward. Because at an intellectual level their peers really aren’t their peers. If you add in the lower maturity level of children this can be a volatile situation.
This can easily result in a gifted child being taken to a psychiatrist or a psychologist who might be another adult of average intelligence. So what happens here is the kid doesn’t want to interact with the shrink much because they can tell this guys another idiot or at least that is how it appears to the kid.
So the shrink looks at the syptoms: kid doesn’t get along well with other kids, doesn’t want to make small talk with him or play with the stupid toy he’s dangling in front of him, but ask the kid about a subject he’s interested in and he dissertates like a college professor. So the shrink says Eureka! this kid has high functioning autism.
Which is a lot easier to tell a parent than, your kid has nothing wrong with him. But compared to your kid I have the IQ of a head of lettuce you have the IQ of a banana and compared to him normal kids his age are borderline retarded which is making it difficult to fit in. [/quote]
Yes, I am sure this happens quite often. Most students are gifted and the teachers are retarded.
D
[quote]Sifu wrote:
We are coming to a point in our history where children have been taking these drugs for some time. Now the information is starting to come out.
[/quote]
I can’t imagine the agony of losing a child as you did! My heartfelt condolences to you and your family.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Some stuff about IQ and children.
[/quote]
While I cannot say that this scenario is entirely impossible, I think it is highly unlikely.
If your child has a high IQ, you are more likely to have a higher than normal IQ. As such, you ought to be able to notice that your child is intelligent, rather than learning disabled.
In your scenario, there would have to be complete failure from every link in the chain. No single person involved could arbitrarily give out medication. I have tutored and worked with kids who are on Ritalin and other drugs; many of them really do have a hard time concentrating without the medication. It isn’t because of a transcendent intellect - they oftentimes have trouble grasping even the basics because they can’t focus on them long enough.
I am not a fan of medication for children, and I think many parents do use it as a cop-out to avoid real parenting. But I don’t think that most kids who are medicated are anything other than normal, active kids who don’t have enough physical exercise and outlets for their energies.
I was very upset when I learned a student of mine (a 15 year old girl) was on anti-depressants. Aren’t all 15 year olds depressed? While I realize that there might be more to the story, it was very disturbing to me.
EDIT: A bit of clarification…
I have a friend who is very intelligent, though dyslexic, and was thought to be dumb by his parents and teachers.
What I am specifically referring to is Sifu’s implication that ADHD and high intelligence are somehow the same thing, and that medication is some sort of institutional backlash against the superiority of the student.
It is of course possible to be both intelligent and learning disabled, or to have ADHD or some other problem. My argument is only with the conflation of the two.
Further, there is a huge difference between a student being disruptive because he is bored (able to grasp the material quickly and easily) and because he has some sort of difficulty focusing, paying attention, or making sense of the material presented. While the child of the latter case may indeed be intelligent, his difficulties are not due to his intelligence, and they must be overcome by some means, whether or not those means may be medicinal.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
Aren’t all 15 year olds depressed? [/quote]
My 15 year old tackles me and laughs the whole time. He is 260 lbs and strong as hell. He makes straight A’s, is working on Eagle Scout and wants to go to The USNA and be a Marine Corps Officer (‘to blow shit up’).
If he’s depressed he sure as hell hides it well! 
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If he’s depressed he sure as hell hides it well!
[/quote]
Well, good! I meant it more as a joke, but depression/angst is rather common amongst teenagers. Although it may be that this is a particularly American problem; teenagers in Italy, for example, tend to be both extroverted and well-adjusted with their families compared to American teens.