SPF Elite Total?

[quote]trivium wrote:
I was thinking about this while I was lifting tonight. Here are my own proposed standards if we are not going to use the current ones based off of 2%.

This is just me playing with a few ideas in my head/having fun, so be easy haha.

Here are my proposed standards if we do not want to do 2%. These are to be updated every 4 years.

WR x .9 = Elite
WR x .8 = Candidate for Elite
WR x .75 = Master

Lets do one for 198 without wraps just for a comparison to the actual charts in question.

WR = 1899
Elite = 1709
CfE = 1519
Master = 1424
Everyone Else = 1423 and below

This however does not take into account any sample sizes or any real statistics.

I’ve done these for a few weight classes (181 and 220) and they seem to work out pretty well.[/quote] Those numbers look pretty good to me.

[quote]grettiron wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
My own standard is binary

A. Top 5 IPF World Classics Raw (or singleply IPF) in your weight class
B. Shit otherwise

Done.[/quote]

Except that IPF is shit, treats the lifters like subjects, and is trying desperately to crush all competition (other feds). It is a top-down organization that tells the lifters what they want, rather than the other way around.

So, anything but IPF. rawunitymeet.com/Rule-14.9.html[/quote]

(1) I meant the totals needed to be there - take the average or whatever. Don’t have to actually be there competing. No other fed or event has the same depth of quality lifters so far - maybe RAW unity will have that at some point in the future - but then again they will have the problem of not testing for PEDs at all.

(2) Only problem with the IPF benchmark is for lifters like you who prefer to squat with wraps.

Norris and bumpus are both beasts

1471 is wo wraps??

I think that one major problem with powerlifting standards is the lack of participation by many top athletes makes standards artificially low. While you can be stronger than 95% of people walking around, that should make you at best a beginner powerlifter. I wrote this in another thread but a whenever the state of Mississippi, as small as we are, turns out 5 kids with elite totals during the state high school powerlifting meet, that probably means that those totals are inflated. Granted with this states history of NFL HOF’s and what not, athletic potential is definitely rich but most of those kids do not ever put up a real total. They play a mainstream sport.

Andrew Bator from Meridian won this years best lifter with a 1655 total at 198.
Colton Bramlet from Pontotoc 2nd with a 1715 at 220
Bailey Wray of Pontotoc 3rd with a 1905 total as SHW at 373
Shamar Burse of Wingfield and his twin brother Shamaree put up 1400 in the 165 and 1305 in the 148 respectively.

All these guys are 18. And if you can have 5 kids do it in one state in one year. How elite is it really?

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]grettiron wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
My own standard is binary

A. Top 5 IPF World Classics Raw (or singleply IPF) in your weight class
B. Shit otherwise

Done.[/quote]

Except that IPF is shit, treats the lifters like subjects, and is trying desperately to crush all competition (other feds). It is a top-down organization that tells the lifters what they want, rather than the other way around.

So, anything but IPF. rawunitymeet.com/Rule-14.9.html[/quote]

(1) I meant the totals needed to be there - take the average or whatever. Don’t have to actually be there competing. No other fed or event has the same depth of quality lifters so far - maybe RAW unity will have that at some point in the future - but then again they will have the problem of not testing for PEDs at all.

(2) Only problem with the IPF benchmark is for lifters like you who prefer to squat with wraps.[/quote]

  1. Not a problem for PEDs. RPS has (and I think USPA will have) an option to enter a tested division. That way, if you think you have a shot at some records, you can lift tested. If not, you just lift and not worry about it.

  2. Yes, there’s that too. Why don’t they have a wraps division, despite their popularity? Way too authoritarian. These are the people who wanted to enforce a minimum bench ROM rule.

I took a look at the spf standards chart and it was awesome for my ego but doesn’t define elite by any realistic definition of the word in my opinion. Here’s a real life example. Early April I competed in our national championships. I was supposed to compete equipped but woke up barfing. I decided to compete unequipped (belt/neoprene knee sleeves).

I weighed in at 55.1kg (57kg weight class) but would qualify for 123 weight class in that federation. I totalled 295kg (650.3lbs) which is 15 lbs under the spf elite raw (with knee wraps). My wilks at that meet would put me at #41 in Canada for women for unequipped. I think I’m a decent lifter but #41 in a small population pool should not be 15lbs shy of elite.

[quote]grettiron wrote:

  1. Yes, there’s that too. Why don’t they have a wraps division, despite their popularity? Way too authoritarian. These are the people who wanted to enforce a minimum bench ROM rule. [/quote]

So having rules is too authoritarian now? That’s a bit of a straw man argument on my behalf, but clearly the more federations = the more dilution. Likewise, the more divisions within a federation, the more dilution there is.

“These are the people…” – false. If the IPF wanted to pass a minimum bench ROM rule, they would pass the rule. Just because the rule came to discussion does not mean the rule was supported and passed. Excellent try at attacking the only respectable international powerlifting organization, though.

[quote]DaveForner wrote:

[quote]grettiron wrote:

  1. Yes, there’s that too. Why don’t they have a wraps division, despite their popularity? Way too authoritarian. These are the people who wanted to enforce a minimum bench ROM rule. [/quote]

So having rules is too authoritarian now? That’s a bit of a straw man argument on my behalf, but clearly the more federations = the more dilution. Likewise, the more divisions within a federation, the more dilution there is.

“These are the people…” – false. If the IPF wanted to pass a minimum bench ROM rule, they would pass the rule. Just because the rule came to discussion does not mean the rule was supported and passed. Excellent try at attacking the only respectable international powerlifting organization, though.
[/quote]

Obviously that is not the point I was trying to make. Rules are required to judge the lift. That’s not even up for debate.

Authoritarian is saying that you cannot lift in any other international meet if you want to compete in IPF. Which is fine, I guess. But that means I don’t recognize IPF as more legitimate, or the “authority”, or the gold standard for competition. So I don’t find them to be respectable, at all.

Not that IPF cares what I think.

[quote]grettiron wrote:

Authoritarian is saying that you cannot lift in any other international meet if you want to compete in IPF. Which is fine, I guess. But that means I don’t recognize IPF as more legitimate, or the “authority”, or the gold standard for competition. So I don’t find them to be respectable, at all.

Not that IPF cares what I think. [/quote]

International meet? No. National or regional meet as long as there are no banned IPF lifters, yes.

Other sports have this type of rule. You cannot have contracts on multiple teams in the same league for any sport. Additionally, most teams will not allow you to have co-existing contracts with teams in other leagues (i.e., playing for the Lakers and for a team in China at the same time), either. It’s not like this is a rarity. It makes complete sense. This is yet another rule that helps bring some legitimacy to powerlifting.

This is also way past the scope of this thread.

[quote]DaveForner wrote:

[quote]grettiron wrote:

Authoritarian is saying that you cannot lift in any other international meet if you want to compete in IPF. Which is fine, I guess. But that means I don’t recognize IPF as more legitimate, or the “authority”, or the gold standard for competition. So I don’t find them to be respectable, at all.

Not that IPF cares what I think. [/quote]

International meet? No. National or regional meet as long as there are no banned IPF lifters, yes.

Other sports have this type of rule. You cannot have contracts on multiple teams in the same league for any sport. Additionally, most teams will not allow you to have co-existing contracts with teams in other leagues (i.e., playing for the Lakers and for a team in China at the same time), either. It’s not like this is a rarity. It makes complete sense. This is yet another rule that helps bring some legitimacy to powerlifting.

This is also way past the scope of this thread.[/quote]

That makes sense if you’ve signed a contract and get paid to play on a team. It’s a huge stretch to apply that to powerlifters who compete at will, and don’t pull down a salary from a team.

For the vast majority of lifters, this is a hobby, not a profession. A more appropriate analogy would be to compare powerlifting to adult-league soccer or something. Suddenly, it seems pretty ridiculous to make rules preventing you from simultaneously playing on your work team and your church team.

[quote]grettiron wrote:
For the vast majority of lifters, this is a hobby, not a profession. A more appropriate analogy would be to compare powerlifting to adult-league soccer or something. Suddenly, it seems pretty ridiculous to make rules preventing you from simultaneously playing on your work team and your church team.
[/quote]

There are rules that prohibit being on multiple rosters in most of the adult-league sports where I live.

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]grettiron wrote:
For the vast majority of lifters, this is a hobby, not a profession. A more appropriate analogy would be to compare powerlifting to adult-league soccer or something. Suddenly, it seems pretty ridiculous to make rules preventing you from simultaneously playing on your work team and your church team.
[/quote]

There are rules that prohibit being on multiple rosters in most of the adult-league sports where I live. [/quote]

Well I guess I’ll shut up then.

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]grettiron wrote:
For the vast majority of lifters, this is a hobby, not a profession. A more appropriate analogy would be to compare powerlifting to adult-league soccer or something. Suddenly, it seems pretty ridiculous to make rules preventing you from simultaneously playing on your work team and your church team.
[/quote]

There are rules that prohibit being on multiple rosters in most of the adult-league sports where I live. [/quote]

But do they ban you from playing on a team in another church league? Never in one I’ve played in, and in fact most people I’ve played with would have violated that hypothetical rule.

http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/fileadmin/data/Anti-Doping/WADA_Dangers_of_Doping_flyer_ENG_FINAL.pdf

wtf is this lol? All this talk about the IPF got me curious about their rules, and I found this on their website. It’s like the D.A.R.E of powerlifting.

[quote]csulli wrote:
http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/fileadmin/data/Anti-Doping/WADA_Dangers_of_Doping_flyer_ENG_FINAL.pdf

wtf is this lol? All this talk about the IPF got me curious about their rules, and I found this on their website. It’s like the D.A.R.E of powerlifting.[/quote]

The IPF works towards international cohesiveness and recognition. Part of that is adhering to the most recognized drug testing organization - WADA. As such, it is not surprising to find a flyer by the WADA on their website. I understand that everyone prefers to play by their slightly different preferred rules but I can’t help but wonder what would happen to the sport of powerlifting if all of a sudden it functioned like weightlifting where 99.9% of competition was through the IWF. Just a thought. Sorry for steering the thread away from the first question but I just couldn’t help but consider the fact that powerlifting is one of the few sports that functions with so much division.

I can’t shut up and let a bad analogy get in the way of one of the most severe problems with IPF (as you can see, my problem with them is political and this is nothing against IPF lifters. Although support for IPF is support for this kind of behavior.):

[quote]rawunitymeet wrote:
In 2001, WPC Worlds was held in Cape Town, South Africa, a five-day event with hundreds of lifters. The WPC affiliate in South Africa had approximately 800 members across the country’s nine provinces. The week before the meet, WPC-South Africa officials were summoned to a meeting with South Africa’s Minister of Sport, Ngconde Balfour. A participant in that meeting recalls:

We had no idea as to what was to be discussed, as we were not given the courtesy of an agenda. When we arrived at the Department of Sport’s conference room, there were representatives from Home Affairs, Internal Affairs, Police, Drug Squad, and a few others from the powers that be that I did not know. In the center of this gathering was Alan Ferguson, the IPF representative for South Africa.

Balfour stated that Ferguson had informed him about the WPC championships and gave the following ultimatum:

The minister threatened to surround the hotel with the army and stop the event if we did not agree to test. We had no option but to agree. We had to supply at our cost a room at the hotel for the drug testing crew.

Despite the WPC subsidizing the government to impose drug testing, in 2002 the government made the IPF affiliate the only authorized powerlifting organization in South Africa, shutting down the WPC affiliate and barring entry of other federations. (So much for the South African Bill of Rights’ affirmation that “Everyone has the right to freedom of association.”) Along these lines, the IPF affiliate’s constitution states under its intents and purposes:

To proclaim as unauthorised all Powerlifting Meetings and Competitions throughout South Africa, which are not held under the Rules and Regulations of the FEDERATION, whether such contemplated, controlled or held by any club or association.
(http://www.powerliftingsa.co.za/sites/default/files/constitution_0.pdf)

Alan Ferguson, now a member of the IPF’s Executive Committee, claims that the government contacted him about the WPC championships and gave him the power to allow or forbid the competition. Ferguson states that he decided to allow the competition on the condition of drug testing: “The competition duly took place and the South African Drug Testing officials arrived to do the testing and although I was not present I was informed that they were chased out of the building.”

Participants at the meet recall events differently. “Alan Ferguson was indeed there,” states Nance Avigliano, who competed on the American team. Another member of the American team remarks concerning who was chased out when the drug testers arrived:

It was the lifters who ran out of the building in an attempt to avoid the testing group since the WPC is not a tested organization. When word was received that the Testing Officials were on site, there wasan emergency exit in the back of the warm-up room that had an exit to the outside. That was the route the lifters used to evacuate the facility. It looked like a circus with the lifters running around the Holiday Inn and the testing officials chasing after them. Moreover, Ferguson describes the aftermath of the competition in disingenuous terms: “After this competition the SAPA [the WPC affiliate] closed down and finally complete unity took place which is the current situation in the country.” The SAPA did not close down; the government closed it down.

As for “unity,” this suggests choice and persuasion, such as lifters from several federations choosing to compete at the Raw Unity Meet after feeling persuaded of the competition’s quality. By contrast, powerlifting in South Africa is in a state of IPF monopoly where persuasion and choice do not exist. [/quote]

TL:DR

IPF suppresses freedom of association in South Africa with the threat of State violence. Forces WPC, via threat of violence, to drug test despite the fact that WPC is an untested fed.

Suppression of basic human rights via threat of violence is not the behavior of an organization that deserves respect.

[quote]arramzy wrote:
I can’t help but wonder what would happen to the sport of powerlifting if all of a sudden it functioned like weightlifting where 99.9% of competition was through the IWF.[/quote]
I think that’s what everyone wants. The problem is that everyone has a different idea of what those rules should be lol!

Personally I think testing for any professional sport is the dumbest. There will always be people who beat the test and crush the natty guys anyway so why bother? Accept that it can’t be done and give up. Just fucking allow them do whatever they want like in strongman and let the chips fall where they may.

Whether you agree or disagree with testing, to gain legitimacy as an internationally recognized sport (ie Olympic consideration or similar recognition which would be the only way powerlifting would ever be televised probably) drug testing would be a given.

I wouldn’t mind seeing it become a more centralized organization but I would actually like to see it combine all aspects of powerlifting and more consistent judging. Have Multiply, Single ply, and Raw. Hell you can even do classic Raw like USPA does. But if they centralized it they would need to do a much better job about recruiting participants and increasing meet opportunities at the amateur level. The USTA in tennis is a good example of this.