[quote]k8thegr8 wrote:
But would you want to take the leucine before/during a high fat meal, if you are going to spike your insulin? Wouldn’t that direct the fat to be stored?[/quote]
Leucine only results in a minimal increase in insulin. It will not cause a huge spike. Also, what you really want to avoid outside of a workout is glucogenic amino acids. Leucine is a ketogenic amino acid. Isoleucine is ketogenic and glucogenic. And valine is pretty much completely glucogenic.
[quote]Sceptical wrote:
FLABREZU wrote:
Sceptical wrote:
PonceDeLeon wrote:
Actually, if you price out powdered Leucine from other sources, you will find that, while they might be a few dollars cheaper for the same amount (I meant # servings times grams leucine per serving), the price differential is easily offset by Biotest’s free shipping.
Or you could realize that this is not value for money coz it’ll never work… inform yourself! citing a few articles and putting up a metabolic pathway are not evidence, just a smokescreen…
Do you not see the INCREDIBLE irony in the fact that you keep saying how all Biotest has done is cite a few articles and put up a “metabolic pathway,” yet you all you do is repeatedly say how it doesn’t work and offer no actual proof to support your case?
Katsanos CS, Kobayashi H, Sheffield-Moore M, Aarsland A, Wolfe RR.
A high proportion of leucine is required for optimal stimulation of the rate of muscle protein synthesis by essential amino acids in the elderly.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Aug;291(2):E381-7. Epub 2006 Feb 28.
It only works for old people, not in healthy young men! How ironic?! Awaiting your educated and informed response… citing your proof that it does work, in humans and don’t cite me rat studies a la Norton and Layman or some Paddon-Jones BS, none of which tested leucine’s effect
[/quote]
The following are straight from Layne Norton, whose study and recommendations were based on young athletes.
Padden-Jones et al. showed that administration of an essential amino acid (EAA) solution containing 2.8g leu increased MPS by ~60% in adult humans (2).
Tipton et al. demonstrated that amino acid solutions containing 4.4g and 8.3g leu stimulate MPS similarly (50-70% increase) in adults (3).
[quote]Sceptical wrote:
Through selective citation, a molecular pathway, and some fancy talk some sheisters will make a few pennies. This is C.R.A.P at its best! How much Leucine do you think you need? Whey is 14% leucine by content… it’s all you need. C’mon guys, crystalline leucine? How unoriginal, unconvincing, and utter BS.
From the T-Nation site: The will to be stupid is a very powerful force, but there are always alternatives.�??Lois McMaster Bujold
Don’t be stupid! Don’t buy!!
[/quote]
Wow! I wonder which company you and your buddy Conciliator are affiliated with.
I’ll withhold judgement on it’s effectiveness, but Biotest hasn’t let me down with any of the products I’ve tried so far, so I’m butting my money on them rather than someone who just appeared here with big claims and no substance.
[quote]k8thegr8 wrote:
But would you want to take the leucine before/during a high fat meal, if you are going to spike your insulin? Wouldn’t that direct the fat to be stored?[/quote]
You don’t need an insulin spike for it to work. You’re going to get insulin released with anything you eat, and its role in this case is that it’s permissive.
In other words, you need some insulin but not a huge spike like you’d get with Surge.
L-Leucine isn’t intended to replace your protein drink.
If you’re having a drink that contains 30 to 40 grams of protein, you’ll likely get enough Leucine.
However, if you have one scoop (about 20 grams) of protein (like I often do), you might want to add 5 grams of L-Leucine.
If you have a solid food meal, add 5 grams of Leucine (either in a drink or directly to the food). It’ll increase the “anabolic potential” of the food.
[quote]Sceptical wrote:
pradaboy wrote:
Sceptical wrote:
Through selective citation, a molecular pathway, and some fancy talk some sheisters will make a few pennies. This is C.R.A.P at its best! How much Leucine do you think you need? Whey is 14% leucine by content… it’s all you need. C’mon guys, crystalline leucine? How unoriginal, unconvincing, and utter BS.
From the T-Nation site: The will to be stupid is a very powerful force, but there are always alternatives.�??Lois McMaster Bujold
Don’t be stupid! Don’t buy!!
Wow a one-post wonder trash-talking Biotest, you’re so tough!
If this stuff is crap, people will find out and stop buying it. They get the benefit of the doubt on everything since they have proven to make excellent supplements!
I guess I am now a two post wonder? And yes, I am tough…
These guys haven’t ‘made’ anything. They’ve just repackaged Ajinomoto’s Leucine… look someone has to make money and Aji’s Leucine isn’t cheap, so they have to mark it up… who wins? Not the consumer! Go ahead buy it, just inform yourself first. Buying based on what these guys have done is the wrong way to go about it
[/quote]
Lyle?
I’m not going to buy the suppliment. I guess you aint either.
But I have no impulse to talk people out of it.
That is the natural response.
Your response speaks to some ill-will you have toward Biotest.
What happened?
Did they hurt your feelings and now you are exacting your revenge?
I believe TC just described what we need to use as a guide. Specifically, if an individual is using a quality protein for their shakes and ingesting sufficient protein (30gm or more) with each meal their leucine intake is sufficient. For example, a 100gm serving of chicken breast and 95% lean ground beef provides 2gm leucine plus the requisite amounts of valine and isoleucine.
My personal feeling is that leucine intake is sufficient at levels below 30gm protein/meal because the test methods used did not consider variability in leucine quantities and relied upon single amounts.
I’m going to get some of this regardless of what people are saying, good or bad. I’m doing the V-Diet, and the first week I had serious DOMS all week. I added about 15g BCAA periworkout on top of my Surge, and my DOMS is almost completely gone.
Once I get back to solid meals, I’m gonna give this a shot.
Any chance Dave Barr might try this on the anabolic index?
Looking at many of the posts I think we need some guidelines for usage when consuming bcaa’s throughout the day and also when using 1 serving of Surge gradually thoughout training ie. 30g protein consumed gradually over 1 hour as many do.
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
I’m going to get some of this regardless of what people are saying, good or bad. I’m doing the V-Diet, and the first week I had serious DOMS all week. I added about 15g BCAA periworkout on top of my Surge, and my DOMS is almost completely gone.
[quote]Rich Hand wrote:
Looking at many of the posts I think we need some guidelines for usage when consuming bcaa’s throughout the day and also when using 1 serving of Surge gradually thoughout training ie. 30g protein consumed gradually over 1 hour as many do.[/quote]
Here’s what Dr. Tim Ziegenfuss suggests:
Here are two possibilities: 1) spike each meal with ~2.5-5 grams (0.5 to 1 scoop) of leucine and continue taking 4-6 BCAA tabs in between meals; or 2) eat one â??normalâ?? mixed meal every 4-6 hours and then supplement with ½ scoop of leucine (2.5 g) + 3 BCAA tabs b/t meals. All things being equal, the net effect on body comp would probably be very similar from both approaches since they both yield a total leucine intake of ~ 40g/day. Personally, I like the first one better b/c I think most guys do not get optimal amts of leucine in every meal.
If change in leucine concentration is what really matters, how do those options work? Wouldn’t it make sense to space out three or four big meals a day with added leucine, and fill in the gaps with either a small dose of BCAA’s or a “snack”?
I think there are lots of advantages to Leucine with meals, but there seem to be some people with misconceptions in this thread on a couple matters. As I understand it:
(2) as a BCAA, free-form leucine is easily burned by muscle cells for fuel–the presence of carbs in the bloodstream can help prevent this
Dr. Zigenfuss’s recommendations sound sensible to me.
I’m guessing that he believes that between meals
(1) amino acid levels in the blood will provide building blocks for muscle synthesis triggered by leucine; and
(2) insulin levels and blood sugar levels are high enough between meals to preserve most of the free-form BCAAs from being burned up. Thus, there are enough BCAAs left to automatically shifting the body into a positive nitrogen balance, and enough leucine left to initiate protein synthesis
