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Nutrition
61

[quote]TC wrote:
alexisonfireuk wrote:
Thought normal whey powders have Leucine in anyway? 1 shake of the cheapest brand i could find on the net have 10.2g of Leucine, and its a hell of a lot cheaper then the suppliment on its own.

so why not just have a shake/ small shakes throughtout the day?

Your whey protein shake has 10.2 grams of Leucine per serving?

I’d check the numbers again.

[/quote]

I think it’s more like 2-3 grams per regular 30 gram scoop of whey. But that’s still 10-15 grams a day from whey for me, plus what’s in a nearly daily serve of Surge and there must be some amount in my eggs and cottage cheese. I’m sure I’m getting enough.

62

[quote]TC wrote:
Chushin wrote:
TC,

How would the best use of this differ from the use of BCAAs? In other words, what woud you recomend for when?

I’m still going to use my BCAAs during my workout, but I use Leucine as described in the article (with meals, spaced a few hours apart).

[/quote]

TC:

If I take Surge pre and post workout, are the BCAA’s still necessary? I’m looking for any advantage that will speed recovery.

Also, will Leucine help with recovery and DOMS?

Thanks,

Marc

63

Why do I somehow picture people driving to Burger King and Wendy’s with their little tub of Leucine and picturing that Double Whopper and king size fry to be the perfect meal?

64

Through selective citation, a molecular pathway, and some fancy talk some sheisters will make a few pennies. This is C.R.A.P at its best! How much Leucine do you think you need? Whey is 14% leucine by content… it’s all you need. C’mon guys, crystalline leucine? How unoriginal, unconvincing, and utter BS.

From the T-Nation site: The will to be stupid is a very powerful force, but there are always alternatives.�??Lois McMaster Bujold

Don’t be stupid! Don’t buy!!

65

[quote]Sceptical wrote:
Through selective citation, a molecular pathway, and some fancy talk some sheisters will make a few pennies. This is C.R.A.P at its best! How much Leucine do you think you need? Whey is 14% leucine by content… it’s all you need. C’mon guys, crystalline leucine? How unoriginal, unconvincing, and utter BS.

From the T-Nation site: The will to be stupid is a very powerful force, but there are always alternatives.�??Lois McMaster Bujold

Don’t be stupid! Don’t buy!!
[/quote]

Wow a one-post wonder trash-talking Biotest, you’re so tough!

If this stuff is crap, people will find out and stop buying it. They get the benefit of the doubt on everything since they have proven to make excellent supplements!

66

[quote]pradaboy wrote:
Sceptical wrote:
Through selective citation, a molecular pathway, and some fancy talk some sheisters will make a few pennies. This is C.R.A.P at its best! How much Leucine do you think you need? Whey is 14% leucine by content… it’s all you need. C’mon guys, crystalline leucine? How unoriginal, unconvincing, and utter BS.

From the T-Nation site: The will to be stupid is a very powerful force, but there are always alternatives.�??Lois McMaster Bujold

Don’t be stupid! Don’t buy!!

Wow a one-post wonder trash-talking Biotest, you’re so tough!

If this stuff is crap, people will find out and stop buying it. They get the benefit of the doubt on everything since they have proven to make excellent supplements![/quote]

I guess I am now a two post wonder? And yes, I am tough…

These guys haven’t ‘made’ anything. They’ve just repackaged Ajinomoto’s Leucine… look someone has to make money and Aji’s Leucine isn’t cheap, so they have to mark it up… who wins? Not the consumer! Go ahead buy it, just inform yourself first. Buying based on what these guys have done is the wrong way to go about it

67

Actually, if you price out powdered Leucine from other sources, you will find that, while they might be a few dollars cheaper for the same amount (I meant # servings times grams leucine per serving), the price differential is easily offset by Biotest’s free shipping.

68

[quote]Sceptical wrote:
pradaboy wrote:
Sceptical wrote:
Through selective citation, a molecular pathway, and some fancy talk some sheisters will make a few pennies. This is C.R.A.P at its best! How much Leucine do you think you need? Whey is 14% leucine by content… it’s all you need. C’mon guys, crystalline leucine? How unoriginal, unconvincing, and utter BS.

From the T-Nation site: The will to be stupid is a very powerful force, but there are always alternatives.�??Lois McMaster Bujold

Don’t be stupid! Don’t buy!!

Wow a one-post wonder trash-talking Biotest, you’re so tough!

If this stuff is crap, people will find out and stop buying it. They get the benefit of the doubt on everything since they have proven to make excellent supplements!

I guess I am now a two post wonder? And yes, I am tough…

These guys haven’t ‘made’ anything. They’ve just repackaged Ajinomoto’s Leucine… look someone has to make money and Aji’s Leucine isn’t cheap, so they have to mark it up… who wins? Not the consumer! Go ahead buy it, just inform yourself first. Buying based on what these guys have done is the wrong way to go about it
[/quote]

I just do the same as every other supp that looks interesting to me. I’ll try it, if I see any improvement I’ll keep buying it and if I don’t notice an effect I will just leave it. Very simple no?

69

Do you not see the INCREDIBLE irony in the fact that you keep saying how all Biotest has done is cite a few articles and put up a “metabolic pathway,” yet you all you do is repeatedly say how it doesn’t work and offer no actual proof to support your case?

70

Wow. Biotest is referencing studies that in no way support thir claims. That’s pretty shameful.

Take, for example, this sentence:

In study 3, they used EAAs, not just leucine. And they didn’t add it to a “high protein or not-so-high protein” meal, they added it to nothing, gaving only EAAs after a 12 hour fast. In study 4, they used not just leucine, but EAA’s or mixed amino acids (MMAs) after resistance exercise. Again, they did not add it to any kind of meal, but to a solution of double-distilled water, artificial sweetener, and 20 ml of lemon concentrate. Finally, the study states “Mean values of the rate of phenylalanine utilization for protein synthesis were ~70 and 50% greater for MAA and EAA, respectively, than for PLA.” That’s where they get the 50-70% figure, but one number is for EAAs and the other is for MAAs. Neither is for leucine. And the study goes on: “However, the increase was not significant.” Unbelievable.

So first of all, neither of these studies showed that leucine has these effects, since neither of them looked at just leucine. Second, it’s a complete misrepresentation to say that protein synthesis is elevated by adding leucine to a meal when the research compared it not to a meal, but to NOTHING AT ALL, after hours of fasting. Finally, the 50-70% range they gave is not a range for leucine, but the increase in protein synthesis (compared to fasting) in either the EAA or the MAA group. And to top it all off, those numbers were NOT statistically significant.

When a company is referencing studies that in no way support their claims, you’re usually not in good hands.

71

[quote]Conciliator wrote:
Wow. Biotest is referencing studies that in no way support thir claims. That’s pretty shameful.

Take, for example, this sentence:

Just adding a few grams of Leucine to a meal, high protein or not-so-high protein, increases muscle protein synthesis by 50-70 percent in humans (3)(4) and increases protein turnover by over 500 percent!(5)

In study 3, they used EAAs, not just leucine. And they didn’t add it to a “high protein or not-so-high protein” meal, they added it to nothing, gaving only EAAs after a 12 hour fast. In study 4, they used not just leucine, but EAA’s or mixed amino acids (MMAs) after resistance exercise.

Again, they did not add it to any kind of meal, but to a solution of double-distilled water, artificial sweetener, and 20 ml of lemon concentrate. Finally, the study states “Mean values of the rate of phenylalanine utilization for protein synthesis were ~70 and 50% greater for MAA and EAA, respectively, than for PLA.”

That’s where they get the 50-70% figure, but one number is for EAAs and the other is for MAAs. Neither is for leucine. And the study goes on: “However, the increase was not significant.” Unbelievable.

So first of all, neither of these studies showed that leucine has these effects, since neither of them looked at just leucine. Second, it’s a complete misrepresentation to say that protein synthesis is elevated by adding leucine to a meal when the research compared it not to a meal, but to NOTHING AT ALL, after hours of fasting.

Finally, the 50-70% range they gave is not a range for leucine, but the increase in protein synthesis (compared to fasting) in either the EAA or the MAA group. And to top it all off, those numbers were NOT statistically significant.

When a company is referencing studies that in no way support their claims, you’re usually not in good hands.[/quote]

The EAAs were the ‘meal’. Amino Acids is exactly what you’re going for when you eat protein. It showed that with leucine being dominant it increased the other amino’s utilization.

And they needed a fasted environment because they need to be able to measure the effects without interference, on a clean slate.

The study wasn’t trying to build muscle, so in the proportions of their experiment the effects were insignificant, but when you increase the dosage and proportions, as in real life, the effect is different.

72

sorry my bad, its per 100g not shake…
per 100g
Isoleucine 6.4
Leucine 10.6
Lysine 9.6
Methionine 2.2
Phenylalanine 3.0
Threonine 6.7
Tryptophan 1.4
Valine 5.9

but still makes it cheaper then just having the powder on its own? if you have 2 a day thats ove the 5g needed?

73

Damn, we got anti-Biotest experts crawlin’ out the word-work.

This big pot of powdered L must be awesome to elicit this immediate and vehement a response. October 17, here I come!

74

[quote]Sceptical wrote:
FLABREZU wrote:
Sceptical wrote:
PonceDeLeon wrote:
Actually, if you price out powdered Leucine from other sources, you will find that, while they might be a few dollars cheaper for the same amount (I meant # servings times grams leucine per serving), the price differential is easily offset by Biotest’s free shipping.

Or you could realize that this is not value for money coz it’ll never work… inform yourself! citing a few articles and putting up a metabolic pathway are not evidence, just a smokescreen…

Do you not see the INCREDIBLE irony in the fact that you keep saying how all Biotest has done is cite a few articles and put up a “metabolic pathway,” yet you all you do is repeatedly say how it doesn’t work and offer no actual proof to support your case?
Katsanos CS, Kobayashi H, Sheffield-Moore M, Aarsland A, Wolfe RR.

A high proportion of leucine is required for optimal stimulation of the rate of muscle protein synthesis by essential amino acids in the elderly.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Aug;291(2):E381-7. Epub 2006 Feb 28.

It only works for old people, not in healthy young men! How ironic?! Awaiting your educated and informed response… citing your proof that it does work, in humans and don’t cite me rat studies a la Norton and Layman or some Paddon-Jones BS, none of which tested leucine’s effect
[/quote]

Don’t buy it. No one cares. Biotest is actually late on the game with this. People have been using leucine in this manner for years. I’ve done it. It works. Your study also says nothing. It say in the ELDERLY, a high proportion of leucine is required for OPTIMAL stimulation. Doesn’t say anything about the young or that less wouldn’t be effective in healthy, young men.

Edit: it actually does. You misread the studies. See below

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"In a follow up study Katsanos et al. (2006) administered 7 grams of EAAs to theyoung and elderly. In condition 1 both groups were given an essential amino acidmixture that contained 26 % leucine. In this condition protein synthesis was increased in the young, but did not increase in the elderly. In condition 2 the elderly were administered a 7 gram mixture of EAAs with the proportion of leucine increased to 41 %. Results found that protein synthesis and net balance were restored to levels seen in young individuals. This suggests that muscle tissue loss in the elderlyis related strongly to impaired leucine signaling, and when leucine levels are increased the deficit in protein balance is reversed

In the above studies elderly individuals and young were compared with levels ofessential amino acids corresponding to 7 grams, which is approximately 15 grams of protein. During this protocol the elderly clearly have deficits in protein synthesis anddegradation. However at higher doses this does not appear to be the case. Forexample Paddon jones et al. administered 15 grams of EAAs and found that this increased plasma amino acids by 300 %. These scientists found no significant difference between the young and elderly in protein synthesis. The rationale is that higher levels of EAAs and leucine may have saturated the system such that it elicited a maximal response in the stimulation of muscle protein accretion in both the young and the elderly. Therefore it appears that at high enough doses of leucine and other EAAs that both the young and elderly have similar responses. The implication is that the elderlyshould consume a large enough dosage of EAAs each meal to saturate their protein synthetic signaling pathways. This most likely occurs at around 15 to 20 grams of EAAs, or 30-40 grams of high quality protein per meal."

This means that lower levels of leucine increased protein synthesis in young. Additional leucine was needed to increase protein synthesis in the elderly. But the additional leucine did not increase protein FURTHER in the young.

Here is the link if you want to read the entire thing:

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:oWeoHz2buqkJ:www.abcbodybuilding.com/leucine4.pdf+adding+leucine+to+meals+studies&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us

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Leucine supplementation can benefit the young and the old. I think the real question is whether additional leucine supplementation really offers much benefit to someone already eating a high protein diet and doing everything perfectly. I don’t think all the evidence quite lets us draw that conclusion yet. But, a lot of evidence strongly suggests that. And anecdotally I’ve found it to be beneficial.

77

[quote]Majin wrote:
The EAAs were the ‘meal’. Amino Acids is exactly what you’re going for when you eat protein. It showed that with leucine being dominant it increased the other amino’s utilization. And they needed a fasted environment because they need to be able to measure the effects without interference, on a clean slate. The study wasn’t trying to build muscle, so in the proportions of their experiment the effects were insignificant, but when you increase the dosage and proportions, as in real life, the effect is different. [/quote]

Right. Leucine needs to be taken along with other amino acids, either from whole food or EAAs. A hike in protein synthesis, created by the leucine, doesn’t matter unless all the needed aminos are present.

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saying Leucine doesn’t work is like saying BCAAs don’t work.
What are people expecting from this, creatine like results?

79

While I’m not going to cite any studies, antecdotal evidence of my own experience makes me want to continue with my own Leu supplementation. As someone else already pointed out, Biotest is not the 1st company to put this out, in fact it’s been written about, and sold by many other companies for years now.

Trashing Biotest on their own site is just a waste of time, especially from someone who just joined 2 days ago, and has no other posts besides the trash in this particular thread. If you don;t think it will work, don;t use it. I’ve been pretty smart with my own training, and as my photos attest, I’d like to think pretty successful. Too many ‘know it alls’ with their own agendas on here lately.

The intelligent trainers on here will try a supplement for themselves and then assess whether they choose to keep in in their rotation or not. ranting ‘dont buy’ just shows what an ass you are (the blank profile really adds to your credibily as well)

S

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But would you want to take the leucine before/during a high fat meal, if you are going to spike your insulin? Wouldn’t that direct the fat to be stored?