[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Let me tell you how it works in organized religion:
If they’re the unopposed majority…guess who’s the heretic soon enough?
[/quote]
So there’s this huge “majority” of Mary worshippers poised to march on the Vatican? You guys sure you aren’t protestants in atheist/agnostic drag? What next, the Pope is the Anti-Christ?
Look, I don’t give a f* if they’d worship Jesus’ donkey.
There won’t be any marchings to Vatican, because they already transformed the religion according to their needs.
Do you think you have much in common with a 2nd century christian believer?
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Look, I don’t give a f* if they’d worship Jesus’ donkey.
There won’t be any marchings to Vatican, because they already transformed the religion according to their needs.
Do you think you have much in common with a 2nd century christian believer?
[/quote]
Oh, now they’ve already “transformed” the Church so that it teaches the worship of Mary. Yet, I can’t seem to find this teaching in my Catechism, was nowhere to be found in my RCIA classes, and I’ve never heard a single homily urging worship of Mary. But, let me guess, because the Mary worship charge fell flat, you weren’t actually thinking about that. Instead, you’re broadening your attacks because the Mary worshiping thing wasn’t working. Do it, Dan Brown.
Edit: What the heck kind of question is that? Do I think I have much in common with a 2nd century Christian? Well, I have a car, a computer, etc. Furthermore, I’m allowed to attend a Church open about it’s Christianity. Is that your idealized Christian, those of the second century? Persecuted?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Professor X wrote:
bpeloquin wrote:
Professor X wrote:
…and for the record, I would only believe this is real or genuine (as far as motive or intent) coming from an elder of the church who has shown an extreme devotion to God. I am not one who believes everyone you hear doing this is being real. I believe some do it for the attention.
[/thread]
This is(was) not the point of speaking in tongues. The gift of tongues was given to apostles of Jesus Christ during the Pentacost. Tongues was simply a means of communicating with others who do not speak your language. It was a language that could be understood by everyone in proximity regardless of their native language. Many, including myself, believe it was a gift used for a certain time and for a certain purpose. It is not a gift used today. It was never intended to be used for communication with God. Where you got this information is beyond me. I have scripture I can use to back up my views but nobody gives a rip about scripture on this website.
Every man heard them speak in his own language (Acts 2:6)
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled (1 Corinthians 13:8) Gifts of prophecy and gifts of tongues are not for today.
Just so you know, my father is a preacher. I am well aware of that scripture but does THIS look like the place to get into a discussion about this? The moment I would have mentioned anything about prophecy, this thread would get overrun by atheists who feel the need to berate belief in a higher power every single chance they get.
I kept my answer very simple and “white-washed” for a reason. I think the real question is why you didn’t understand this and needed some explanation when it is blatantly clear that I am right about how these people act.
If any of you actually want to discuss these things, QUIT TALKING ABOUT THEM HERE AND FIND A WEBSITE THAT HAS THAT FOCUS.
I am sick of the discussion on this forum concerning this because I know for a fact most of the people berating my intellect or knowledge base are far less intelligent or informed than they seem to think they are making going back and forth with them a waste of my time.
Prof, I am sure that the discussions about religion here are every bit as well informed as the bodybuilding discussions on theology sites.
To be fair, this is the area to discuss world issues. If you don’t want to get into that discussion, just don’t post on the thread. Posting on the thread just to say that you don’t want to discuss it is a tad passive aggressive.
This thread was originally in the Get a Life forum. You are the one who wasn’t following from the beginning. That is why it has so many posts from people who usually stay out of the political forum.
Whichever it was in, if you don’t want to get into the discussion, why post?
Did you miss that I was already in the discussion from the beginning?
I am not here to try to convince anyone else to believe what I believe. So why would I go that in depth on a public forum that seems nearly overrun with atheists about religious topics that need faith to start with to actually get deep enough to be relevant? I already covered the basics and left it at that while trying to avoid discussion about prophecy because most of the people here couldn’t even comprehend it without making a joke of it.
Do any of you think you are changing anyone else’s mind here?[/quote]
X,
That is exactly what I am looking for. Someone with faith. I was saved when I was a young child. I really did not fully understand what was realy going on. Now, many, many, years later, I find that I have moved more toward Evolution used by God as a tool to get us here. But, I admit that I am lacking in the faith department and dont even get me started on the Bible. So if someone with faith can explain then great. I only wish to learn more about something I do not understand and dont really believe in because I find it interesting.(and a little disturbing) Most people find things they do not understand strange. I have no hope of converting anyone here and do not really worry about the folks who do not believe and feel the need to belittle those who do. I am looking for an explination. This extends far beyond this thread. This is an on-going talk with my friends (who are all have different thoughts on this) who are all church going folk. I value anyones opinion who has faith and has grown up around it. Even if you do not have faith, the opinion is still taken into consideration. I think there can be a good discussion if we filter through the BS.
G
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Look, I don’t give a f* if they’d worship Jesus’ donkey.
There won’t be any marchings to Vatican, because they already transformed the religion according to their needs.
Do you think you have much in common with a 2nd century christian believer?
Oh, now they’ve already “transformed” the Church so that it teaches the worship of Mary. Yet, I can’t seem to find this teaching in my Catechism, was nowhere to be found in my RCIA classes, and I’ve never heard a single homily urging worship of Mary. But, let me guess, because the Mary worship charge fell flat, you weren’t actually thinking about that. Instead, you’re broadening your attacks because the Mary worshiping thing wasn’t working. Do it, Dan Brown.
Edit: What the heck kind of question is that? Do I think I have much in common with a 2nd century Christian? Well, I have a car, a computer, etc. Furthermore, I’m allowed to attend a Church open about it’s Christianity. Is that your idealized Christian, those of the second century? Persecuted?[/quote]
Now as I find both of your arguments compelling, I think this may be a topic for another day. I have my opinions about the church back in the day. The power it held, it being corrupt, the way people feared the church way back then, the way they could shape and turn things in their favor, and the list goes on. And the Catholic Church was a beast back then. But, I am really only looking for answers to the OP. Now this is a free country so speak what you want, when, and where you want. (I fight for that right) I am just looking for some contribution to the speaking in tongues aspect. I just do not want to get pushed in another direction on this.
Goku
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Look, I don’t give a f* if they’d worship Jesus’ donkey.
There won’t be any marchings to Vatican, because they already transformed the religion according to their needs.
Do you think you have much in common with a 2nd century christian believer?
Oh, now they’ve already “transformed” the Church so that it teaches the worship of Mary. Yet, I can’t seem to find this teaching in my Catechism, was nowhere to be found in my RCIA classes, and I’ve never heard a single homily urging worship of Mary. But, let me guess, because the Mary worship charge fell flat, you weren’t actually thinking about that. Instead, you’re broadening your attacks because the Mary worshiping thing wasn’t working. Do it, Dan Brown.
Edit: What the heck kind of question is that? Do I think I have much in common with a 2nd century Christian? Well, I have a car, a computer, etc. Furthermore, I’m allowed to attend a Church open about it’s Christianity. Is that your idealized Christian, those of the second century? Persecuted?[/quote]
Ever been to a church in Mexico, or Italy?
Stand by the shrine to whichever saint the Church is dedicated to and listen to people giving prayers directly to that saint. Or to whichever Saint is the patron of whatever ails them at that moment. They didn’t just spontaneously make that up. Someone taught them.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Look, I don’t give a f* if they’d worship Jesus’ donkey.
There won’t be any marchings to Vatican, because they already transformed the religion according to their needs.
Do you think you have much in common with a 2nd century christian believer?
Oh, now they’ve already “transformed” the Church so that it teaches the worship of Mary. Yet, I can’t seem to find this teaching in my Catechism, was nowhere to be found in my RCIA classes, and I’ve never heard a single homily urging worship of Mary. But, let me guess, because the Mary worship charge fell flat, you weren’t actually thinking about that. Instead, you’re broadening your attacks because the Mary worshiping thing wasn’t working. Do it, Dan Brown.
Edit: What the heck kind of question is that? Do I think I have much in common with a 2nd century Christian? Well, I have a car, a computer, etc. Furthermore, I’m allowed to attend a Church open about it’s Christianity. Is that your idealized Christian, those of the second century? Persecuted?
Ever been to a church in Mexico, or Italy?
Stand by the shrine to whichever saint the Church is dedicated to and listen to people giving prayers directly to that saint. Or to whichever Saint is the patron of whatever ails them at that moment. They didn’t just spontaneously make that up. Someone taught them.[/quote]
Ask them if they’re praying to them, or worshipping them.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Look, I don’t give a f* if they’d worship Jesus’ donkey.
There won’t be any marchings to Vatican, because they already transformed the religion according to their needs.
Do you think you have much in common with a 2nd century christian believer?
Oh, now they’ve already “transformed” the Church so that it teaches the worship of Mary. Yet, I can’t seem to find this teaching in my Catechism, was nowhere to be found in my RCIA classes, and I’ve never heard a single homily urging worship of Mary. But, let me guess, because the Mary worship charge fell flat, you weren’t actually thinking about that. Instead, you’re broadening your attacks because the Mary worshiping thing wasn’t working. Do it, Dan Brown.
Edit: What the heck kind of question is that? Do I think I have much in common with a 2nd century Christian? Well, I have a car, a computer, etc. Furthermore, I’m allowed to attend a Church open about it’s Christianity. Is that your idealized Christian, those of the second century? Persecuted?
Ever been to a church in Mexico, or Italy?
Stand by the shrine to whichever saint the Church is dedicated to and listen to people giving prayers directly to that saint. Or to whichever Saint is the patron of whatever ails them at that moment. They didn’t just spontaneously make that up. Someone taught them.
Ask them if they’re praying to them, or worshipping them.[/quote]
Well when I see someone bowing down before a graven image of a saint and asking them to intercede on a matter whilst making an offering to that saint I wonder how that doesn’t go against the whole thou shalt have no other god than me concept.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Well when I see someone bowing down before a graven image of a saint and asking them to intercede on a matter whilst making an offering to that saint I wonder how that doesn’t go against the whole thou shalt have no other god than me concept.
[/quote]
Because they hold the Saint as a fellow Christian, not a God. So what if we ask our fellow Christians to intercede for us? Surely praying for others, and asking others to pray for us, is…Christian? In addition, you must be aware that we believe in an omniscient God. Therefore, one that is aware of who holds whom as a God. Cockney, do you claim to know their hearts? Do you listen in upon their inner voice, their thoughts, and hear their hidden worship of the Saint as god? If they stood up and turned to you each time and said, “The Saint isn’t a God, I’m praying for him to intercede, to pray for me,” you’d call them liar? That you know what was really going on in thier heads? That’s very naughty, Cockney.
When freely practiced, bowing is a man made sign of deep respect. Did you know ladies used to curtsey? Saluting is common in the military, too.
Oddly, I’ve never even heard fundamentalist protestants object to praying to deceased loved ones at their grave stone. “Mom, me and dad are doing ok. But, we really miss you.”
[quote]orion wrote:
There are more Mary worshipers out there than protestants.[/quote]
There are more Santa believers than both groups combined.
[quote]pookie wrote:
orion wrote:
There are more Mary worshipers out there than protestants.
There are more Santa believers than both groups combined.[/quote]
That I believe to be factually false.
Even if you combine all North Pole dwellers with somewhat pointy hats, that cannot be true.
There are like 1 billion that have been exposed to the story and maybe 10%, i.e. small children, still believe in it.
[quote]orion wrote:
pookie wrote:
orion wrote:
There are more Mary worshipers out there than protestants.
There are more Santa believers than both groups combined.
That I believe to be factually false.
Even if you combine all North Pole dwellers with somewhat pointy hats, that cannot be true.
There are like 1 billion that have been exposed to the story and maybe 10%, i.e. small children, still believe in it. [/quote]
There are far more than 1 billion who have been exposed to it.
You also must factor in that “Mary worship” is almost entirely a female thing. I’ve never heard a man implore Mary. So that cuts your Mary worshippers number in half.
Also, children who believe do so honestly. Take out all the “fake” adult believers who just go with the flow, and I’d bet than true Santa belief outnumbers most “true believers” for any religion.
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I am typing in tongues because I have no desire to make noise today.
[quote]pookie wrote:
orion wrote:
pookie wrote:
orion wrote:
There are more Mary worshipers out there than protestants.
There are more Santa believers than both groups combined.
That I believe to be factually false.
Even if you combine all North Pole dwellers with somewhat pointy hats, that cannot be true.
There are like 1 billion that have been exposed to the story and maybe 10%, i.e. small children, still believe in it.
There are far more than 1 billion who have been exposed to it.
You also must factor in that “Mary worship” is almost entirely a female thing. I’ve never heard a man implore Mary. So that cuts your Mary worshippers number in half.
Also, children who believe do so honestly. Take out all the “fake” adult believers who just go with the flow, and I’d bet than true Santa belief outnumbers most “true believers” for any religion.
[/quote]
Fuck-
That means in some faith dependent universe he is mightier than Thor.
No, children’s beliefs do not count, since they’re pretty helpless creatures.
They can believe that the Boogeyman, Muppets and Alf are real.
However, it’s meaningsless.
Childish phantasies aren’t a well structured-organized belief system even if they resemble actual ones. They change dramatically all the time, they rarely impose them on others etc.
Adults, even males (ever been to South America or in Former Soviet States?) pray to the holy mother at all times. They teach their kids to do the same, not vice versa (ever seen a kid teach mommy to pray to Barbie so that daddy won’t drink so much?).
And Santa is actually a VERY good example of bullshit sweeping into christianity.
Coca Cola basically reinvented a minor figure so powerfully nobody ever thinks of him as a turkish dude he supposedly was (if he ever existed).
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Well when I see someone bowing down before a graven image of a saint and asking them to intercede on a matter whilst making an offering to that saint I wonder how that doesn’t go against the whole thou shalt have no other god than me concept.
Because they hold the Saint as a fellow Christian, not a God. So what if we ask our fellow Christians to intercede for us? Surely praying for others, and asking others to pray for us, is…Christian? In addition, you must be aware that we believe in an omniscient God. Therefore, one that is aware of who holds whom as a God. Cockney, do you claim to know their hearts? Do you listen in upon their inner voice, their thoughts, and hear their hidden worship of the Saint as god? If they stood up and turned to you each time and said, “The Saint isn’t a God, I’m praying for him to intercede, to pray for me,” you’d call them liar? That you know what was really going on in thier heads? That’s very naughty, Cockney.
When freely practiced, bowing is a man made sign of deep respect. Did you know ladies used to curtsey? Saluting is common in the military, too.[/quote]
Saints are often patrons of certain crafts and aspects of life because they excelled in it (through miracles).
That means, you pray to saint because he can whoop ass or save yours.
It’s mighty idiotic to think praying via proxy should be more powerful. Nobody believes that subconsciously (“I pray to him so he’ll pray to god for me”). That’s just the official story.
People are made with a longing to be able to touch their gods.
how, do you think, the myth of god’s son originated? Most religions, especially in rural and poorer lands regularly organize festivities where idols are transported around by hundreds of people.
So nobody wants to pray to some invisible ghost if shit hits the fan.You need a pro you knows his shit. The archangel Michael was idolized (especially by warriors) like some version of Mars because he could kick ass (he literally kicked Satan’s ass out of town!), and last time I looked he’s not christian, heck he’s not even human!
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Well when I see someone bowing down before a graven image of a saint and asking them to intercede on a matter whilst making an offering to that saint I wonder how that doesn’t go against the whole thou shalt have no other god than me concept.
Because they hold the Saint as a fellow Christian, not a God. So what if we ask our fellow Christians to intercede for us? Surely praying for others, and asking others to pray for us, is…Christian? In addition, you must be aware that we believe in an omniscient God. Therefore, one that is aware of who holds whom as a God. Cockney, do you claim to know their hearts? Do you listen in upon their inner voice, their thoughts, and hear their hidden worship of the Saint as god? If they stood up and turned to you each time and said, “The Saint isn’t a God, I’m praying for him to intercede, to pray for me,” you’d call them liar? That you know what was really going on in thier heads? That’s very naughty, Cockney.
When freely practiced, bowing is a man made sign of deep respect. Did you know ladies used to curtsey? Saluting is common in the military, too.
Saints are often patrons of certain crafts and aspects of life because they excelled in it (through miracles).
That means, you pray to saint because he can whoop ass or save yours.
It’s mighty idiotic to think praying via proxy should be more powerful. Nobody believes that subconsciously (“I pray to him so he’ll pray to god for me”). That’s just the official story.
People are made with a longing to be able to touch their gods.
how, do you think, the myth of god’s son originated? Most religions, especially in rural and poorer lands regularly organize festivities where idols are transported around by hundreds of people.
So nobody wants to pray to some invisible ghost if shit hits the fan.You need a pro you knows his shit. The archangel Michael was idolized (especially by warriors) like some version of Mars because he could kick ass (he literally kicked Satan’s ass out of town!), and last time I looked he’s not christian, heck he’s not even human!
[/quote]
And let us not forget that Judeism developed from a polytheistic religion
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
It’s mighty idiotic to think praying via proxy should be more powerful. Nobody believes that subconsciously (“I pray to him so he’ll pray to god for me”). That’s just the official story.
[/quote]
Uh, fella, Christ and the apostles asked Christians to pray for others…
“That’s the official story.” I knew it! You’re a conspiracy theorist. No matter our actual doctrines, the real story is the secretive instruction in the Saint-Gods and the Mary Goddess! Catholicism is Santeria in disquise!
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
No, children’s beliefs do not count, since they’re pretty helpless creatures.[/quote]
I’ve seen plenty of helpless adult creatures in churches.
[quote]They can believe that the Boogeyman, Muppets and Alf are real.
However, it’s meaningsless.[/quote]
So is belief in god, but because adults do it and are more mature and articulate, it appears more meaningful.
It is basically the exact same thing: Belief in the reality of someone who’s existence is indistinguishable from non-existence, were it not for the large number of people who’ll affirm he exists.
Do you have kids? I’ve seen kids have fairly long discussions about Santa and explain to others how he manages to go down a chimney even if the pipe is too small. (By the way, it’s by using magic Santa dust).
Of course, they don’t proselytize much…
They should try it and note the identical effectiveness.
Ok, so some men do worship Mary. It’s still a mostly female affectation. Won’t change the numbers enough.
As for kids not teaching parents: duh.