Thanks for the notes. Beginning of the week we actually talked about the breathing in the belly and not the chest. I think the belt helps him in this regard.
I will try to set the squat bar one step lower, see how it turns out.
I found a good (read: successful) weightlifting coach nearby, we will see him once we return from vacation.
Thanks again for all the responses and tips.
[quote]lift206 wrote:
Is he only wearing socks? If so, it’ll be a good idea to get shoes with good grip. A large amount of lateral stability can be generated in the hips and this is reacted by friction with the floor.
For the deadlift, a slightly more neutral head position might be better - that means he has to learn to pack his neck, almost like crushing a ball between his chin and neck. Make sure he’s firing his lats hard if he isn’t already. His core area looks fine in both lifts. Post more videos as the weight increases or if his form deviates from the above.
Edit: The shoes looks more like all black chucks or vans after watching a few more times so disregard the first comment.[/quote]
No you are right, those are socks, but the shoes are on order. Thanks.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I don’t often disagree with Chris, and I’m only partially disagreeing with him here…
I like belts as a training aid for proper bracing, BECAUSE you have something to brace against. I think it can be used to minimize confusion, actually. If you’re trying to explain to someone how to properly breathe into their belly, it makes sense that they’ll understand it more if they have something to push against. They can feel it. I honestly don’t know any better way to teach it.
So what you can do to teach proper bracing/breathing, would be to practice with a belt just standing, not lifting weights or anything. You teach him to expand his midsection to fill the belt. Then when he goes to lift the weight, he doesn’t need to actually wear the belt, he can just employ the same technique.
As a side note, I can’t see the videos. Obviously a problem on my end since others have seen them.
Other side note: I might just make a video to explain what I just typed. I’m not sure how clear I was, but I can demonstrate it pretty easily.[/quote]
I can understand both points of view. I think a belt shouldn’t alter a person’s spinal position while lifting. When starting off, I depended on it to align my spine and pushed out against the belt (I basically blew up my abs like a balloon). This was bad when going heavy because my chest caved easily (weak hip flexors and glutes probably contributed to this). I had to learn how to really brace without a belt - blowing up my belly like a balloon and then compressing it with my transversus abdominis, obliques and rectus abdominis.
An effective way to learn how to brace that Richard Hawthorne recommends is doing hollow holds. Taking in a deep breath and poking at the obliques give feedback that a person is bracing correctly.
A belted squat is a tool to get stronger and for some it can be easy to learn how to brace with a belt. A beltless squat is also a tool to get stronger and doing it doesn’t ensure a person is bracing correctly. The only way to know for sure a person is bracing correctly is to brace and poke at their sides. Then replicate that feeling when lifting. That’s similar to what you mentioned in wearing a belt while not lifting to work on bracing technique. The only thing I would add is to create as much pressure as possible because ultimately it’s the large intra abdominal pressure that’s important.
[quote]lift206 wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I don’t often disagree with Chris, and I’m only partially disagreeing with him here…
I like belts as a training aid for proper bracing, BECAUSE you have something to brace against. I think it can be used to minimize confusion, actually. If you’re trying to explain to someone how to properly breathe into their belly, it makes sense that they’ll understand it more if they have something to push against. They can feel it. I honestly don’t know any better way to teach it.
So what you can do to teach proper bracing/breathing, would be to practice with a belt just standing, not lifting weights or anything. You teach him to expand his midsection to fill the belt. Then when he goes to lift the weight, he doesn’t need to actually wear the belt, he can just employ the same technique.
As a side note, I can’t see the videos. Obviously a problem on my end since others have seen them.
Other side note: I might just make a video to explain what I just typed. I’m not sure how clear I was, but I can demonstrate it pretty easily.[/quote]
I can understand both points of view. I think a belt shouldn’t alter a person’s spinal position while lifting. When starting off, I depended on it to align my spine and pushed out against the belt (I basically blew up my abs like a balloon). This was bad when going heavy because my chest caved easily (weak hip flexors and glutes probably contributed to this). I had to learn how to really brace without a belt - blowing up my belly like a balloon and then compressing it with my transversus abdominis, obliques and rectus abdominis.
An effective way to learn how to brace that Richard Hawthorne recommends is doing hollow holds. Taking in a deep breath and poking at the obliques give feedback that a person is bracing correctly.
A belted squat is a tool to get stronger and for some it can be easy to learn how to brace with a belt. A beltless squat is also a tool to get stronger and doing it doesn’t ensure a person is bracing correctly. The only way to know for sure a person is bracing correctly is to brace and poke at their sides. Then replicate that feeling when lifting. That’s similar to what you mentioned in wearing a belt while not lifting to work on bracing technique. The only thing I would add is to create as much pressure as possible because ultimately it’s the large intra abdominal pressure that’s important.
[/quote]
I think we’re both basically saying the same thing, just a different approach to teaching. The bottom line is you’re trying to get the person to ‘feel’ what it’s like to generate that abdominal pressure. Whether it’s by poking or pushing out against a belt, or putting on a pair of pants that’s too tight… whatever. The feedback is the main thing.
I definitely agree that with or without a belt, spinal positioning should be the same. You shouldn’t deadlift one way with a belt, and another way without one.
What do you mean by ‘chest caving’ though? Are you talking about rounding the upper back?
videos came up for me now.
I’d advise avoiding the hyperextension at the end of the deadlift reps. No need to lean that far back. Come to full extension at the top, but don’t pull back excessively at the completion of the movement. Once the bar has completed it’s vertical path, and the knees and hips are locked in an upright position, the rep is done.
Other than that, I’m pretty much ok with the form. Very good for his age.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
videos came up for me now.
I’d advise avoiding the hyperextension at the end of the deadlift reps. No need to lean that far back. Come to full extension at the top, but don’t pull back excessively at the completion of the movement. Once the bar has completed it’s vertical path, and the knees and hips are locked in an upright position, the rep is done.
Other than that, I’m pretty much ok with the form. Very good for his age.[/quote]
Thanks, will tell him!
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
What do you mean by ‘chest caving’ though? Are you talking about rounding the upper back?
[/quote]
Yup, rounding my upper back and sometimes my lower back. That happened often when I didn’t know how to load my hips, pressurize my abs and engage my lats. It sucked.
Also, I do like your approach in teaching someone to brace with a belt while not performing a movement which can be a distraction. I’ll have to add that to the list of teaching tools. Just tell them to create so much pressure that it feels like their eyes are going to pop out, lol.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
I have a tough time doing Internet form checks, even with video, but my two cents:
Deadlift: Get the hips lower at the start. Flat back flat back flat back flat back! Ditch the belt.
[/quote]
Yeah, OP, he is not only rounding his upper back but also rounding his lower back which is unacceptable under any circumstance. Ditch the belt, strip a little bit of weight on the bar, and teach him how to set up properly without a belt and how to lift with a straight back. Teach him how to pull the slack out of the bar and set up with a neutral back with braced abs, take him to a powerlifting coach if you can if you don’t know how to.
[quote] Chris Colucci wrote:
Squat: Set up the bar one peg lower to get into a tighter start position, as it is now, he couldn’t squat with a low bar position even if he wanted to. Remember hips move first, not knees. Second rep looked better than the first. Again, ditch the belt.
Nothing wrong with using a belt under some circumstances, but it’s not necessary and could potentially be “confusing” for a beginner. Focus on keeping/building a tight and strong core. At this point, he doesn’t need the “distraction” of learning how to push out against the belt for extra support and certainly doesn’t/shouldn’t need it for safety. A while down the road, think about re-introducing the belt.
[/quote]
Seconding this too. Also get him to do push ups, pull ups, ab work (sit ups, ab rollouts, and side bends), back extensions, and do something like sled drags/tire pulls, etc. He’s a little guy that probably doesn’t have too much of an athletic history (even if he does, this still applies for injury prevention), and more than likely needs to work on building a base of general preparedness along with just ingraining the form on the big lifts in if he wants to stay injury free when he starts to lift heavy after he gets older.
I’ll go ahead and use myself as an example. I am 17 and will be 18 in a month, and I’ve done some kind of training since I was 12, and of course played and did that type of kid stuff. I just did 5k’s and general newb weightlifting (aka just doing stupid stuff) for the first couple of years, then get one of those cheap barbell kits, then finally a real olympic barbell. I go on starting strength which is great and all, but it has some bastardizations and I made some common form mistakes (squatting too high, touch and go deadlifts, and flaring the elbows on the bench) which I slowly started fixing. None of this is serious heavy lifting by a lot of the standards of people here, then I get a 300 pound squat at like 14 and a half years old and do smolov (an example of the type of stupid mistakes teenagers can make with low supervision) and pull an adductor on the second to last training session on the program. I did conjugate training after that (very good training, but you still need to build a base to do it safely) and kept getting lower body injuries. My form was good, but I still kept getting the weirdest injuries (AKA 2 erector pulls, a pulled pec, an injured SI joint, pulled pec because they were very weak, and a rhomboid pull). That keeps going on until I get one of the people here, Reed, to look at my training. Apparently I never built up back, ab, and hamstring/glute strength and that kept causing issues. I ended up addressing that, and I have only had one injury since (one that wasn’t even lifting related), I think I’ve been injury free for about a year and a half at this point aside from that one minor nonlifting related injury.
The tl;dr of the monster paragraph is: Build a base of strength in his back, abs, shoulder cuff, hamstrings (back extensions should cover lower back and hamstring) and that type of stuff so he doesn’t end up collecting a long list of injuries like I did. It is not common for people to be as lucky as me with having no lasting damage from injuries.
And I guess I’ll do one final tl;dr summary: ditch belt, teach form, make him start doing pull ups, push ups, ab and back work and wait until his form and body is ready before he starts lifting heavy. I’m sorry about the one massive paragraph, powerlifting/strength training is one of my most favorite hobbies and I really like writing and reading about it and trying to help people out, and I felt my anecdotal evidence was relevant.
Destrenght, thanks for time.
[quote]lift206 wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
What do you mean by ‘chest caving’ though? Are you talking about rounding the upper back?
[/quote]
Yup, rounding my upper back and sometimes my lower back. That happened often when I didn’t know how to load my hips, pressurize my abs and engage my lats. It sucked.
Also, I do like your approach in teaching someone to brace with a belt while not performing a movement which can be a distraction. I’ll have to add that to the list of teaching tools. Just tell them to create so much pressure that it feels like their eyes are going to pop out, lol.[/quote]
hahaha glad you like it.
Rounding the upper back while deadlifting is almost universally done by great deadlifters. I can’t think of a single 900+ deadlifter who doesn’t do it, although I could be missing someone. It’s really one of the most useful techniques available. But it’s also something that should almost never be taught to beginners, because they won’t understand it.
It’s kind of like electrical outlets. When you’re a kid, you’re taught never to touch them, and that they’re incredibly dangerous. And this is true, because you don’t know how to use them properly. Then at some point, you grow up, and all of a sudden electrical outlets are the most useful thing in the house.
[quote]panina wrote:
Any critique is welcome![/quote]
If he’s going to use that sort of belt, turn it around. He needs something to press his abs against; putting the thin part in front does nothing in that regard.
Ideally, it’d be better if he had a belt that was of universal width.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Ideally, it’d be better if he had a belt that was of universal width. [/quote]
A belt that’s as wide as the Universe!?!?!!?!? Seems excessive to me.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
hahaha glad you like it.
Rounding the upper back while deadlifting is almost universally done by great deadlifters. I can’t think of a single 900+ deadlifter who doesn’t do it, although I could be missing someone. It’s really one of the most useful techniques available. But it’s also something that should almost never be taught to beginners, because they won’t understand it.
It’s kind of like electrical outlets. When you’re a kid, you’re taught never to touch them, and that they’re incredibly dangerous. And this is true, because you don’t know how to use them properly. Then at some point, you grow up, and all of a sudden electrical outlets are the most useful thing in the house.[/quote]
Yup, I recently rounded my upper back without rounding my lower back and it felt pretty damn good to control that, haha. I do agree that it takes awhile to understand it.
Op speaking from experience as long as GOOD FORM is stressed and he isn’t allowed to progress in weight until he masters it. He will be perfectly safe and better for it in the long run. Does he play any sports? The reason I asked is I find it amusing when you bring up any kind of weight training regarding younger kids to parents THEY FREAK THE F&*K OUT!!! But yet have no issue with their kid playing full tackle Football and other sports which have a higher % of injuries per participants.
If it will make you feel more at ease or your wife here are a few videos of my oldest son
Age 15
Age 16… this past spring
You can show these videos to your wife. I assure you he has had zero injuries from weight training. What injuries he has acquired during his teenage years have all been related from sports such as Football and Wrestling.
Thanks bulldog, very inspiring for my son. I showed the videos to my wife and she finally gave her “blessing”. My son just finished with football (no injuries, knock on wood) and will do wrestling in High School.
Great site, great knowledge, thanks everyone.
[quote]panina wrote:
Thanks bulldog, very inspiring for my son. I showed the videos to my wife and she finally gave her “blessing”. My son just finished with football (no injuries, knock on wood) and will do wrestling in High School.
Great site, great knowledge, thanks everyone.[/quote]
No thanks needed… just glad it helped you out. If I could add to help your situation, i would suggest if your not 100% comfortable coaching your son on his lift. That you might want to consider shopping around your area for a coach whom has a established track record. That would probably even help more in making your wife be more at ease.
^ Super fun to watch your son, Bulldog. What a neat kid.
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
^ Super fun to watch your son, Bulldog. What a neat kid.
[/quote]
Thanks Puff… 