Sonnen - Shogun

[audiogarden1]

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:

As for Overeem, they should cut him some slack and rebuild him -he’s too valuable.
Give him Mir, Vera, Big Country, Rothwell, someone from the lower half of the heavies’ roster.
That should work.
[/quote]

This did not work out so well…[/quote]
Lol!
At least he had the best p4p oblique kick…

Back to the drawing board, Mr. Jackson.
Seriously, fix his holes!
[/quote]

1st Where the hell were you guys? I haven’t seen either of these screen names around here for a while.

2nd I re watched the Reem vs Rothwell fight and I want to know who decided Reem should fight with his hands down like a low budget Roy Jones? Because that shit needs to go. If I remember his K-1 march to domination to correctly he stalked with a high guard. What the hell Jackson?

I am as confused about that as the idea of trying to lean down Shane Carwin and teach him to kick instead of just trying to support his power punching and wrestling.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Nothing good/new ever gets discussed on these forums anymore (and im not referring to all the dramatic BS that used to happen) so i havent bothered to post much.
[/quote]
There has been less talk about fights/MMA/boxing of late. Is that what you mean?

Anyway, i dont think Greg Jackson’s camp is all its cracked up to be. This isnt the first time theyve seemingly ruined a promising fighter, and the truly talented/gifted athletic specimens that they do get, they turn into point fighters.

Jones is still a better finisher and funner to watch than GSP, but he’s definitely gotten away from some of his strengths and been very conservative in fights where he didnt need to be.

Also, his wrestling has suffered, the Jones that ran for the title against Shogun had better TDD and much more dynamic takedown setups than the Jones we’ve seen since the Rampage fight. If a fight against Rumble materializes this could be big trouble for JJ.

I think DC is a bigger threat than Johnson. After watching what he did to Barnett, I could see him handling the clinches where Jones has always been safe. I think that has the potential to unsettle John Jones even more than dealing with Gustofson’s height.

On a similar note, steroids make MMA so much more awesome. Just look at how fun Overeem and Belfort were to watch when they were juicing.

I am torn.

I didn’t like the “No Roids, Plenty of TRT” stance, but a lot of fighters have lost their sheen.

Wand and Reem are two that come to mind. Belfort is an example, but he was never consistent enough for me to blame it all on that.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

No, i mean T-Nation in general. There just isnt a lot of original/worthwhile discussion anymore unless you are talking about the latest and greatest supplement that will pack on 30 lbs muscle in 2 weeks.

And i am in the minority that thinks DC is significantly less of a threat than AJ or AG to jones. I dont think defeating Barnett is a particularly great acheivement anymore. And DC couldnt do anything more than Overeem did to mir…and look how great he’s turned out…

I think DC gives up way too mich size and specifically, length. Jones knows how to use it, matching that length is the reason Gustafsson was the first guy to give Jones any real trouble.

I think this fight looks very similar to Jones/Rashad.

[Sentoguy]

I tend to agree with you Audio regarding DC. Reach is one of the primary advantages in combat sports (especially striking arts) and although I think DC is fast and athletic and his boxing has improved a lot since he came into MMA, the skill to be able to consistently thwart such a huge reach disadvantage is another level which I have yet to see. Even in pure boxing where you don’t have to contend with lead leg side kicks to your lead knee or running into elbows on the way in, the number of short guys who have been able to consistently close the distance and get inside against top caliber opponents are definitely the minority.

I think like you said, AG is really the only guy who has the reach and skill to be able to force Jones out of his comfort zone and he arguably won the first fight as a result. I like Johnson due to his aggression, size, well roundedness, and heavy hands, but I’m not convinced yet that he poses the same degree of threat.

[audiogarden1]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I tend to agree with you Audio regarding DC. Reach is one of the primary advantages in combat sports (especially striking arts) and although I think DC is fast and athletic and his boxing has improved a lot since he came into MMA, the skill to be able to consistently thwart such a huge reach disadvantage is another level which I have yet to see. Even in pure boxing where you don’t have to contend with lead leg side kicks to your lead knee or running into elbows on the way in, the number of short guys who have been able to consistently close the distance and get inside against top caliber opponents are definitely the minority.

I think like you said, AG is really the only guy who has the reach and skill to be able to force Jones out of his comfort zone and he arguably won the first fight as a result. I like Johnson due to his aggression, size, well roundedness, and heavy hands, but I’m not convinced yet that he poses the same degree of threat.[/quote]

100% agreement.

I think Jones beats Gus in the rematch, and this time more convincingly, but he will not walk away unscathed (for the record, i had Jones at 3 rounds to 2 in the first fight)

AJ has the potential, and theres no doubt in my mind that he’s capable of knocking Jones out, but we just dont have any way to guage just how much he’s really capable of doing against a well-rounded, elite opponent. He’s never faced anyone even close to Jones, though his resume is respectable for sure at 205.

If they do make this Rumble/Gus fight happen though and Rumble knocks him out, i dont know if i would pick Jones as the favorite in that fight.

[Sentoguy]

Personally I think making a Rumble vs Johnson fight happen would be stupid on the UFC’s part and honestly think the whole idea of a “#1 contender fight” is a dumb one. How many legitimate contenders for the belt have they got left at LHW who Jones hasn’t already smashed? I would say they’ve got 3; AG, AJ, and DC. Why take two of your 3 best title contenders and have them fight each other?

Now you’ve used up both of them and regardless of who wins it’s going to take some time and a few more wins for whoever loses to convince people that to consider them a legit title threat and build some hype around the fight. If they both have to fight and can’t wait till we find out the outcome of JJ vs DC, then have them fight some other decent name fighter who isn’t really in the running for a title shot. They could still lose of course (it is still MMA after all), but hopefully another convincing win against a decent name would only increase their stock and sell more PPV’s when that guy finally fights for the title.

[audiogarden1]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Personally I think making a Rumble vs Johnson fight happen would be stupid on the UFC’s part and honestly think the whole idea of a “#1 contender fight” is a dumb one. How many legitimate contenders for the belt have they got left at LHW who Jones hasn’t already smashed? I would say they’ve got 3; AG, AJ, and DC. Why take two of your 3 best title contenders and have them fight each other?

Now you’ve used up both of them and regardless of who wins it’s going to take some time and a few more wins for whoever loses to convince people that to consider them a legit title threat and build some hype around the fight. If they both have to fight and can’t wait till we find out the outcome of JJ vs DC, then have them fight some other decent name fighter who isn’t really in the running for a title shot. They could still lose of course (it is still MMA after all), but hopefully another convincing win against a decent name would only increase their stock and sell more PPV’s when that guy finally fights for the title.[/quote]

Im not interested in whats going to generate the most hype or sell the most PPV’s, im interested in seeing the best matchups, for me the match i would be most excited to see is AJ vs Gus.

As it stands right now i dont think there is anyone at LHW outside of Rumble, Gus, DC and Jones that can beat any of those guys. I want to see them weed out who the legit top contender is.

If DC loses i would love to see him fight Glover too. One of the most interesting matchups i can think of out of the LHW elite

[Robert_A]

RE: Barnett

He lost to Cormier and got caught and KO’d by Travis Brown. Between those he took out Frank Mir(which may or may not be the accomplishment it once was).

It wasn’t so much the fact DC beat him, but how he beat him. DC outwrestled and out grappled him. He basically manhandled Barnett. I think that is still a big accomplishment, especially given the size difference. By comparison Barnett submitted Dean Lister not to long ago in a grappling match and Lister is still world class in grappling (albeit he was outweighed in their match) and hadn’t been submitted for years.

RE: Cormier vs Jones

I get what you guys are saying about reach. Normally I would side with it, and I will go even further and say that a lot of tall for division MMA fighters have found “even taller” to be their kryptonite (See Diaz vs Condit for example). Where I think DC is different is he brings the willingness and ability to close and damage the taller man, just like Cain does at heavy. I don’t think he will hang out at range like Sherk against Penn or Penn vs Diaz for that matter.

Cormier’s wrestling could give him the edge in clinches, or at least keep Jones honest. Jones can manhandle most people, and that lets him do things he might otherwise not. If the clinch wasn’t “safe ground” for him it could throw him way off his game.

RE: Glover Texiera vs…

I would watch Glover fight anyone. I just like watching him fight. He has Phil Davis next, which will be interesting. Davis has the wrestling ability to take Texiera out of the stalk and KO comfort zone. I am still picking Glover to win.

RE: Anthony Johnson

I don’t think he gets a shot soon, first and foremost because his weight shenanigans make him a bigger promo risk than Barnett’s seeming unwillingness or inability to pass drug tests.

I know that risk should be limited by fighting at 205, but it still has to weight in from a business standpoint. He has also been plagued with injuries, that might be explained by cutting so damn much weight so often though. He also only has two UFC wins at LH. He decisioned Davis, and KO’d Diet Nog in a fight where Nog tried to apply the “head movement is gay, and makes you not get into heaven” style of boxing that there is no way he had when he earned his Pan Am chops.

On the other hand he beat Arloski at HW so he has the “destructive force” chops. I would like to see him fight Glover, Gustoffson, or Rashad Evans. Wins over any of those 3, with no weigh in or injury issues, would make him a good contender in my mind.

Regards,

Robert A

[Sentoguy]

Audio,

Let me clarify my position by saying that I would like to watch AG fight AJ and am also interested in seeing the best fighters fight each other. But, I don’t think that having two of your only real interesting title contenders fight each other prior to fighting for the title is the best use of the talent present in the division. Would that fight be any less interesting after they have both had title shots? Maybe, maybe not. But if you have them fight (and let’s say Jones defends against DC, if he doesn’t that opens up the division and a bunch more interesting fights) and then have the winner fight Jones for the title and he again defends, who is next? Let’s say Jones wins impressively over the winner of the AG vs AJ match and the winner of that fight won decidedly. Are you really going to be excited about seeing a guy who just got whooped by a guy that Jones just whooped fight Jones? I know that’s going to make the match-up less interesting for me (I’d still watch it of course, but would be less “worried” about Jones defending the title). Or worse yet, what if the winner gets injured in the process? Now what do you do? Have the loser fight for the title? Put the title on hold for an extended time to let the winner heal up?

A dominant champ without real competition (or at least the prospect of real competition) is not nearly as exciting as a champ in a division with a bunch of legit threats to their title. Case in point AS will still probably go down as the greatest MW champ ever (and arguably the best champ in UFC histor period), but the level of competition he held that belt against and legitimate threats to his title were far lower and fewer than say GSP during his fight career (with a few exceptions). I personally don’t want to see the LHW division wind up like the MW division during much of AS’s reign (prior to Weidman) where you start running out of good match-ups for the champ and start having him fight the equivalent of Thales Leites for the title.

Once you have guys fight for the title, by all means have them fight each other if the match-ups are interesting or to earn a second shot, but not the first time around.

[audiogarden1]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Audio,

Let me clarify my position by saying that I would like to watch AG fight AJ and am also interested in seeing the best fighters fight each other. But, I don’t think that having two of your only real interesting title contenders fight each other prior to fighting for the title is the best use of the talent present in the division. Would that fight be any less interesting after they have both had title shots? Maybe, maybe not. But if you have them fight (and let’s say Jones defends against DC, if he doesn’t that opens up the division and a bunch more interesting fights) and then have the winner fight Jones for the title and he again defends, who is next? Let’s say Jones wins impressively over the winner of the AG vs AJ match and the winner of that fight won decidedly. Are you really going to be excited about seeing a guy who just got whooped by a guy that Jones just whooped fight Jones? I know that’s going to make the match-up less interesting for me (I’d still watch it of course, but would be less “worried” about Jones defending the title). Or worse yet, what if the winner gets injured in the process? Now what do you do? Have the loser fight for the title? Put the title on hold for an extended time to let the winner heal up?

A dominant champ without real competition (or at least the prospect of real competition) is not nearly as exciting as a champ in a division with a bunch of legit threats to their title. Case in point AS will still probably go down as the greatest MW champ ever (and arguably the best champ in UFC histor period), but the level of competition he held that belt against and legitimate threats to his title were far lower and fewer than say GSP during his fight career (with a few exceptions). I personally don’t want to see the LHW division wind up like the MW division during much of AS’s reign (prior to Weidman) where you start running out of good match-ups for the champ and start having him fight the equivalent of Thales Leites for the title.

Once you have guys fight for the title, by all means have them fight each other if the match-ups are interesting or to earn a second shot, but not the first time around.[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying. I think ive just become jaded when it comes to MMA over the last couple years. Theres so much less excitement and intrigue in the UFC and MMA in general now (for me at least) that im just trying to get as much good stuff now as i can lol

[Sentoguy]

Pretty much agree with what you said Robert, but willingness to engage does not equal the ability to close the distance against someone who knows how to use their reach like Jones does. I’m not saying Cormier couldn’t catch JJ with a punch while rushing in, but I don’t think it’s as likely as him getting caught with a bunch of shots attempting to do so. Jones has literally a foot of reach advantage on Cormier (with his arms, his leg reach is even greater). That is basically the equivalent of him being able to put his hand on DC’s head and hold him there at arms length and DC being able to touch him. With just a modicum of backwards circular footwork he can essentially just jab DC in the face and never get caught (especially in an Octagon where there are no real corners to get trapped in like a ring) or even reached by DC. It also means that using his arms to post on DC should he attempt a takedown or to rush in is fairly safe as he’ll still be out of reach even if DC fakes a shot and say tries to come over the top with an overhand right.

Seriously, you need to have a LOT of striking skill to overcome that type of reach and a good strategy on top of it (and we are just addressing the hands, a couple good lead leg side kicks to DC’s lead knee will slow him down even more and make it even harder to close) and personally I have not seen that kind of skill from Cormier to this point. He could of course surprise me, but I haven’t seen it yet.