How Do You Rank MMA Quality?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

I was watching a replay of the WEC event with Pulver/Faber, and was just thinking of the contrast between WEC and Elite XC. Elite XC seemed to be all hype, and the fights, besides the girls and the unfortunate stoppage with Lawler, seemed to be pretty weak. It was kinda disappointing that one show blows donkey balls yet gets on CBS, and the good fighters were on Versus.

Anyway, my question is how do you rank the different MMA companies/leagues as far as fighting skill? Obviously all of them will have some great fighters, but when you look at UFC/Pride/WEC/Bodog/Elite XC/etc., how would you rank them?

I’m sure there’s some I’m missing, or don’t know anything about (where are Fedor and Silvia fighting?), so feel free to add whoever you want.

2

I’m not ranking anyone, but I’ll just note what I think about them all .

Pride… Legendary, and nothing will ever take that from them. All true MMA fans will always feel that they got it right.

Some fights seemed fixed
definite feeding of “cans” a lot
commission? we don’t need no stinkin commission!
Are probably the reason Sakuraba might end up like Muhammed Ali.

Shooto… The Standard for how MMA orgs should be run imo.

amateur division
you EARN the right to be a top draw, no TUF shit.
Consistently produced some of the best names in MMA today from the known to lesser known. Jake Shields, Kid Yamamoto, Anderson Silva, Erik Paulson, Tankanori Gomi, Genki Sudo, the list is longer than my dick… ie, pretty fucking long.

EliteXC… has the finest girls EVER (ring girls and dancers i mean), I also enjoy female MMA, it seems more raw and passionate to me for some reason.

UFC… the flagship organization. Hate it or Love it the ferrita bros and dana white have brought MMA back to life in northern america not something many could do. The only reason you all probably have access to MMA schools are because of these guys giving popularity to the sport and a job to 90% of the coaches out there now.

I don’t like no knees on the ground
I don’t like no stomps
I don’t like TUF
I don’t like dana whites politics
I don’t like underpaid fighters
I don’t racially biased production (Whole other thread)
The “XTREEEEMMMEEEEE” marketing makes me want to vomit sometimes
I don’t care what anyone says joe rogans commentating is pretty funny to me. I wish he’d crack more straight up jokes.

WEC… hell i feel this has better production than the UFC and often times better fights. I think that some of the guys in the WEC would give the UFC guys a run for their money. Faber talked about doing a few superfights at 155… I actually think that he and razor rob could give BJ a run for his money. But this is coming from the only person in the world who probably thinks that BJ is overrated.

DREAM… could be what Pride was but it will take something drastic to get them ANY recognition in North America. They’d have to draw all the well known athletes from the UFC and its very unlikely that’ll happen. I mean Dan Henderson, Matt Hughes, Nog, GSP and Anderson Silva would have to leave.

K-1 Heroes… I love it, but Im primarily a thaiboxer so I’ll love anything K-1 oriented.

3

I agree with xen on all points except BJ would get faber out of there.

Faber beat jens solidly, but Penn annihilated him. Penn annihilated sherk. Destruct and destroyed joe stevenson, beat the piss out of Gomi. slapped around both renzo and rodrigo gracie, fought better against machida than rich franklin, tito ortiz, and sokodjou. Also lost a narrow decision to GSP, and is 1-1 against matt hughes

so, i dont see Faber offering any threat to BJ

4

[quote]elliot007 wrote:

so, i dont see Faber offering any threat to BJ[/quote]

Yeah right…Faber’s a “threat”…he’s proven that by now. Maybe he could get a rematch with Tyson Griffin before even thinking about BJ Penn.

5

Sorry for the hijack but this is an interesting discussion :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]elliot007 wrote:
I agree with xen on all points except BJ would get faber out of there.

Faber beat jens solidly, but Penn annihilated him. Penn annihilated sherk. Destruct and destroyed joe stevenson, beat the piss out of Gomi. slapped around both renzo and rodrigo gracie, fought better against machida than rich franklin, tito ortiz, and sokodjou. Also lost a narrow decision to GSP, and is 1-1 against matt hughes

so, i dont see Faber offering any threat to BJ[/quote]

Valid points all of them but the Math doesn’t add up. Styles make fights so “So and so beat so and so therefore beats this other guy” doesn’t add up to much.

Penn’s style and skillset is a great matchup for Machida though this is a ridiculous accomplishment because of the weight and what not.

I knew right off the bat that BJ would beat Pulver style-wise but that I could never call Faber/Pulver.

If Gomi and BJ met NOW i think gomi would fucking destroy BJ. Or at least be one of the best fights I’ve ever seen. Gomi is a completely different animal now.

Joe stevenson should have never been matched up with BJ, i mean sure he had to beat him to get to the interim title but it was never really equal fighters. I’m surprised it lasted as long as it did really.

Sherk/BJ was even worse…there’s nothing in Sherks skillset (that we’ve seen him actually use) that could contend with BJ. At the MOST he could get a freak knockout, because even on the ground he’d end up just getting subbed.
—> fyi I predicted the same with Hendo/Silva, skillsets were just too different.

Style-wise I think everything that sherk was SUPPOSED to be able to do to BJ (Pressure, GnP, frustrate him standing, clinch, leg kicks (if u notice bj and his camp don’t really check kicks) ) Faber can actually pull off. On top of this he has other skillsets to fall back on.

based on style i see him doing more than razor rob (who as of recently hasn’t shown me much) or jamie varner (i need to see varner fight more actually).

Perfect example of style though is Gomi when he fought BJ versus the Gomi we see now.

Pure wrestler vs a very developed striker now with the most powerful punches at 170lbs. He literally BROKE Nick Diaz’s face. and those were shitty arm punches when he was dead tired. Diaz is a fucking warrior but a game Gomi takes just about anyone…especially if BJ moves up 170 again… Hell if he moves up to 170 he has to get past GSP first… and if GSP is on his game then this will be laughable.

6

None of this matters, because BJ will never fight at 155 again. And Penn would be a train wreck for Gomi to deal with.

7

Xen,

I’ve only seen him fight a couple times, but Razor Rob sure didn’t look very impressive on that Faber/Pulver card. I was watching that waiting for him to come in and rock that guy…waited 3 rounds and never saw it. I know he’s a lot better than he showed that night, but you think he’d take BJ?

8

Shooto does two things that other orgs do not. They have the amateur ranks, which is a C-class license. When you move up to pro first you get a B-class. The goal is to get an A-class license.

The second thing is they have rankings. I think this is good because you can see who is the #1 challenger for the title and you can see who the fighters must beat in order to get a title shot.

9

[quote]otoko wrote:
Shooto does two things that other orgs do not. They have the amateur ranks, which is a C-class license. When you move up to pro first you get a B-class. The goal is to get an A-class license.

The second thing is they have rankings. I think this is good because you can see who is the #1 challenger for the title and you can see who the fighters must beat in order to get a title shot. [/quote]

How do they choose the fights? For example, can you only fight a person within a couple rankings of yourself? Also, if you beat the person ranked before you, do you take that spot?

I know nothing about Shooto, but I like the idea of rankings. As opposed to the UFC version of determining the #1 contender based on who you want to be a coach on the next season of TUF.

10

[quote]Ruggerlife wrote:
otoko wrote:
Shooto does two things that other orgs do not. They have the amateur ranks, which is a C-class license. When you move up to pro first you get a B-class. The goal is to get an A-class license.

The second thing is they have rankings. I think this is good because you can see who is the #1 challenger for the title and you can see who the fighters must beat in order to get a title shot.

How do they choose the fights? For example, can you only fight a person within a couple rankings of yourself? Also, if you beat the person ranked before you, do you take that spot?

I know nothing about Shooto, but I like the idea of rankings. As opposed to the UFC version of determining the #1 contender based on who you want to be a coach on the next season of TUF.

[/quote]

Yes I think the idea is to take the spot of the guy above you. I think that is what they work towards. Of course it doesn’t always work smoothly when you have several ranked guys fighting within a short period of time. Champs also get stripped if they can’t fight their mandatory challenger. Meaning if someone has become the #1 challenger you MUST fight him. If for any reason you can’t, like health reasons you get stripped. Then the #1 challenger and #2 in line fight for the title. I think this is what they strive for. Tatsuya Kawajiri was the Shooto 70kg champ. But he could not fulfill his mandatory defense because of health reasons he was stripped of his title. Since he also fought outside of Shooto, in Pride, such a scenario was a possibility.

The UFC has the TUF so inter-org rankings would not work for them. They would not be able to justify TUF and matches like Serra-GSP 1. I think they should have rankings. I think alot of people think Machida deserves a title shot. With no rankings though they can decide whatever they want. I can see that would help with matchmaking, just make the intriguing fights or the big money fights. With their business model(PPV) that is probably the way they have to go. Some part of me thinks though that is bs, since it doesn’t seem fair for guys who have worked their way up, boring as they may be. Can’t really compare it to big sports leagues since they have tv deals and teams or individuals earn their way to their respective finals. Still that seems more legitimate(earning it).

The second best thing you can do is a Grand Prix. Just get the 16 best fighters in each division and bracket them and see who comes out on top. K-1 does this every year for kickboxing. Though it is much more elaborate with tournaments all over the world. Then the final 8 at the end of the year.

Though I don’t know how that sort of thing would play in the states. Guys would lose and it would be very hard to become a domninat champ since you would have to win a GP every year. Most top K-1 fighters in history have double digit losses.

11

As of right now my standing for the different MMA organizations is as follows:

UFC:
Only above WEC because of big name talent. Love the talent in the UFC but the fight cards are very hit and miss. The politics get old and I honestly think they have way too many people on the roster.

Get rid of the crappy ones so we only have good fights. They need to use the WEC more as a proving ground and when you own in the WEC move them to the UFC like they originally planned. Something like hey you have 2 successful title defenses lets think about moving you to the UFC.

WEC:
I really like the WEC they have some fucking game ass fighters. I’d really like to go to some of their shows. I heard the tickets are reasonable and it is a very intimate show like a small local show you’d go see.

Others:
Don’t matter. I don’t care about women fighters, Kimbo Slice or Fedor Fucking Emelienko(however it is spelled). Fedor hasn’t fought anyone in years and he has left a bad taste in my mouth. Sure he is fighting Timmy but who cares? Timmy sucks and I friggin hate the guy. I don’t actually hate him I just hate him as a fighter. Fedor should of accepted the King’s Ransom the UFC offered him. Boowhoo I’d have to only fight in the UFC for 2-4 fights cry. Not like the best fights are there or anything.

Closing Thoughts:
Lol at Gomi beating BJ. Also, the dumb comment about BJ not checking leg kicks. If you watch his fights he usually evades them or jumps over them making GSP look like a tool. His skill is undeniable but if you want to argue about him being a lazy ass clown cause he doesn’t come in shape then I’ll agree. That fight was GSP’s once in a life time gift decision just like Bisping over Hamil. But but but he maintained top position…ohhh I’m the French blanket everyone should be proud…I’m getting dizzy cause I had my ass handed to me please take me to the hospital.

12

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:

Others:
Don’t matter. I don’t care about women fighters, Kimbo Slice or Fedor Fucking Emelienko(however it is spelled). Fedor hasn’t fought anyone in years and he has left a bad taste in my mouth. Sure he is fighting Timmy but who cares? Timmy sucks and I friggin hate the guy. I don’t actually hate him I just hate him as a fighter. Fedor should of accepted the King’s Ransom the UFC offered him. Boowhoo I’d have to only fight in the UFC for 2-4 fights cry. Not like the best fights are there or anything.

.[/quote]

I don’t think Fedor had to take anything really. Look what happened(and what didn’t happen) to the UFC HW division. Fedor didn’t sign. Randy wants out of the UFC to fight Fedor. Barnett won’t sign with the UFC, because he has issues with them and he wants to fight Fedor. Sylvia is gone, he wants to fight Fedor(and he will). Arlovski is gone.

There are some big talented HWs like Aleks and Kharitonov floating around. Mirko is gone, I think he wants to fight Fedor also. In hindsight Fedor did not really make a bad decision.

If Werdum beats Vera. Then he most likely gets another shot at Nog. If Herring beats Lesnar, I guess he gets next after that. Not exactly glory days for the UFC HW division.

13

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
As of right now my standing for the different MMA organizations is as follows:

UFC:
Only above WEC because of big name talent. Love the talent in the UFC but the fight cards are very hit and miss. The politics get old and I honestly think they have way too many people on the roster.

Get rid of the crappy ones so we only have good fights. They need to use the WEC more as a proving ground and when you own in the WEC move them to the UFC like they originally planned. Something like hey you have 2 successful title defenses lets think about moving you to the UFC.

WEC:
I really like the WEC they have some fucking game ass fighters. I’d really like to go to some of their shows. I heard the tickets are reasonable and it is a very intimate show like a small local show you’d go see.

Others:
Don’t matter. I don’t care about women fighters, Kimbo Slice or Fedor Fucking Emelienko(however it is spelled). Fedor hasn’t fought anyone in years and he has left a bad taste in my mouth. Sure he is fighting Timmy but who cares? Timmy sucks and I friggin hate the guy. I don’t actually hate him I just hate him as a fighter. Fedor should of accepted the King’s Ransom the UFC offered him. Boowhoo I’d have to only fight in the UFC for 2-4 fights cry. Not like the best fights are there or anything.

Closing Thoughts:
Lol at Gomi beating BJ. Also, the dumb comment about BJ not checking leg kicks. If you watch his fights he usually evades them or jumps over them making GSP look like a tool. His skill is undeniable but if you want to argue about him being a lazy ass clown cause he doesn’t come in shape then I’ll agree. That fight was GSP’s once in a life time gift decision just like Bisping over Hamil. But but but he maintained top position…ohhh I’m the French blanket everyone should be proud…I’m getting dizzy cause I had my ass handed to me please take me to the hospital.[/quote]

So we finally have here someone from glorious nation of Kazakhstan! Hello!

14

I think xen nailed it with his classicfications of
the various orgs.
Pride had the Best productions BEST.
and yes they had more then their fair share of fixed or mismatched fights.

what about IFl?there are some really good fighters out in IFL-
I will be damned if I can track all that too many fighters.
Shooto is still one of my favorites, they really have the ranking system down.

As far as BJ Penn goes, Im not so much a nut hugger, as I just really follow his stuff. at ufc 37 in 2002 he fought and TKO
a guy I wrested everyday in practice at college.
Paul Creighton we Both went to Morrissville.

but Ill cut it short
maybe this needs it own thread?

the conditioning/training is a moot point He has to to make weight.
He no longer can compete while not giving a shit about training.
he has better head movement , footwork, and hits hard.
He also has a bit of a mean streak
look at GSP or Hughes after either fight. Or recently
Sherk Or Pulver.

I think he can beat Gomi, Melendez, JA, Aoki, Florian, and Huerta and yes he can beat mac danzig and faber as well.
But he can be a thread too.

kmc

15

I would love to see a Faber/Penn fight (maybe at a catch weight). Yeah, Penn beat Pulver the second time, but Pulver beat Penn via decision the first time they fought. Though I’m not sure that Faber would win, I still think it would be a good fight.

I’d also love to see a Kid Yamamoto vs. Penn fight. Now that would be interesting. Yamamoto has success fighting larger opponents (like Penn), has as good if not better striking and is an Olympic caliber wrestler. Really the only place Penn has him is jiu-jitsu.

Of course I’d like to see a Faber/Yamamoto fight too. Sadly I doubt I’ll ever see any of the above. Or if I do, it’ll be when one or both of the fighters has passed their prime.

16

to me, id rather see miguel torres against faber. i just see faber getting embarrassed by penn, and i like urijah, so id rather not.

Yamamota is a good fighter, Id take him over Faber. Id also have him losing to penn

I only really see Penn having issues with the top guys at 170.

17

I am (was) a big Pride fan, but can recall watching a few fights thinking that they looked a little staged - so interesting that this point was brought up here.

Vitor v Sakuraba comes to mind.

Any fights that stand out to you guys?

18

[quote]elliot007 wrote:
I agree with xen on all points except BJ would get faber out of there.

Faber beat jens solidly, but Penn annihilated him. Penn annihilated sherk. Destruct and destroyed joe stevenson, beat the piss out of Gomi. slapped around both renzo and rodrigo gracie, fought better against machida than rich franklin, tito ortiz, and sokodjou. Also lost a narrow decision to GSP, and is 1-1 against matt hughes

so, i dont see Faber offering any threat to BJ[/quote]

I agree with all XN’s points except I like TUF and agree with the “no stomping” rule.

BJ is a great fighter at 155.

GSP is at his best right now IMO and BJ can’t seem to go up in weight without running into conditioning problems. Even if he packed on solid muscle he doesn’t get past GSP so what’s the point? I’m really looking forward to watching GSP dominate Penn. Fitch is no joke btw and will be a good tune up match before Penn if that’s where this thing ends up.

As far as Faber goes, I’m not sure he can get much bigger! He’s a rock and a big rock at that and conditioned to the max. I think a Faber vs Penn fight would be incredible personally, but a risk for Faber going up. Let’s not forget Faber’s ability to improvise - he’s like a monkey in there. This fight would go the distance IMO and “going the distance” and “BJ Penn” bares a striking resemblance to oil and water;)

Another incredible fighter in the WEC is Carlso Conti, but then again at 170 the UFC has a handfull of fighters that would probably beat him.

19

[quote]justrob wrote:
I am (was) a big Pride fan, but can recall watching a few fights thinking that they looked a little staged - so interesting that this point was brought up here.

Vitor v Sakuraba comes to mind.

Any fights that stand out to you guys?
[/quote]

I think Vitor broke his hand in that fight. If it was staged, I imagine it would have been more exciting

20

[quote]elliot007 wrote:
I think Vitor broke his hand in that fight. If it was staged, I imagine it would have been more exciting[/quote]

So I heard too, but watching that fight a couple of times things just don’t seem right.

Vitor barely threw a punch in the first 5 minutes, despite Saku having his hands at waist level for much of the standup.

Compare this to the Vitor that had finished Wanderlei in under 30 seconds only recently prior to the Saku fight.

Belfort’s punching was always going to be his big weapon, regardless of whether he’d prepared well enough for the fight or not.

Not saying I know this fight was worked for sure, just a little suspicious.

Apologies for the highjack OP.