Tlenora, there aren’t any ingredients in common with MAG-10, and you’ve shown that having some androgenic effect does not necessarily cause that problem in your case, so it seems unlikely you’d have the problem with the red bumps that occurred for you with MAG-10.
I’m so downright upset that I can’t get this - may have to beg AngryVader to stock up some for me. 
Mr. Roberts - glad to see you’ve been locked up in the basement hard at work.
One question, how does this compare to the gains seen with MAG-10?
The Ronin, yes, it’s not rubbed in.
HD8, it’s not a metabolite of a banned substance.
Failing a test could depend on the analytical technique used. A decent test, and what is used at the higher levels of sport, is GC/MS or gas chromatography/mass spectroscopy.
This method cannot mistake one compound for another. 17-ADR (or another way of saying it, the 11-T sports tonic product) could not result in GC/MS test failure. It could not result in failing an IOC test, as they use GC/MS.
But for example if one has an ordinary medical test, that is not the method used, bur rather an immunological-based test, for example ELISA, that relies on how much binding occurs with an antibody that is supposed to be specific to the thing tested for.
This method can readily mistake similar compounds for each other.
So it could be that the antibody used in the ELISA test to detect testosterone might detect 17-ADR as well, even though it is not testosterone. I really don’t know.
But I would hope that any sports organization would not be relying on an ELISA test.
I understand that you aren’t mass-producing this product in fear of overstocking because of the possibility of the product being put on the banned list in the near future… But is this going to be a permanent problem?
Also, why is it not possible to ship outside of the U.S?
[quote]Sick Rick wrote:
Also, why is it not possible to ship outside of the U.S? [/quote]
Can you imagine how people would bitch and moan if their customs took it away?
[quote]RSGZ wrote:
Sick Rick wrote:
Also, why is it not possible to ship outside of the U.S?
Can you imagine how people would bitch and moan if their customs took it away?[/quote]
I sure can, however, why would customs take it away? It’s not a banned substance. It’s perfectly legal.
Thanks, RSGZ!
On the gains question, I can’t personally say. In the case of MAG-10, I was in a place physically where I could still make gains on the juice, so comparison to a good steroid stack was possible.
And then also after release we had a number of experienced steriod users give their own judgment on how MAG-10 compared to gram-a-week steroid cycles.
But presently, even on 150 mg/day trenbolone acetate plus 100 mg/day testosterone propionate plus 50 mg/day Oral Turinabol, other than androgenic water retention I don’t actually make gains.
It is probably due declining natural GH (I’m 46), not having access to injectable GH anymore, and due to having gone through a shipload of them having already gotten just about as much from my limited potential remaining at my age out of steroids as I am able to get.
So I really can’t personally evaluate 11-T for muscle gains, as even a stack that I’m sure is stronger doesn’t now give me muscle gains. A rapid weight gain of about 9 lb from increased glycogen and glycogen-associated water, yes, but not any substantial increase in contractile protein.
The 11-T spray did in my case yield the prompt weight gain which I attribute to increased glycogen and glycogen-associated water, though.
So this time, I just am not suited to having meaningful personal findings on muscle gains.
Not that 17-ADR is an anabolic steroid. It is just a comparison that since even anabolic steroids don’t pack further added muscle on me at this point, I can’t expect 11-T to do so.
It would have been a different story in the past and will be a different story for others not in the “while not impressive, that’s about as good as it’s going to get” stage that I’m at.
[quote]Sick Rick wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
Sick Rick wrote:
Also, why is it not possible to ship outside of the U.S?
Can you imagine how people would bitch and moan if their customs took it away?
I sure can, however, why would customs take it away? It’s not a banned substance. It’s perfectly legal.[/quote]
In the US. Who knows what other goverments have planned?
Within the USA only…no love to Canada ,your killing me here
When is the best time of the day to use this product? I know the article mentions after a shower, and that cortisone is highest in the morning; so I’m assuming right after a shower in the morning. Correct? Or is there a more optimal time?
I don’t know how to say this so I am just going to say it… I ordered… And I am thoroughly stimulated, cannot wait to see this product in action!!
[quote]RSGZ wrote:
Sick Rick wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
Sick Rick wrote:
Also, why is it not possible to ship outside of the U.S?
Can you imagine how people would bitch and moan if their customs took it away?
I sure can, however, why would customs take it away? It’s not a banned substance. It’s perfectly legal.
In the US. Who knows what other goverments have planned?[/quote]
In the Netherlands you’d have to get a permit to import these kind of goods, but that could be arranged. But even if you’d have a permit, would it still be unavailable outside of the U.S?
Man… They dangle this awesome product before our faces and alot of us can’t get our hands on it 
Sick Rick, on whether it will be permanent that production will be in batches with periods of being sold out, there is no expectation of the product being permanently in the line. There’s not a certainty that there will even be a second batch, though we hope that more than one or even a number of them will be possible.
I’LL DRINK THIS MILKSHAKE!
In terms of water retention is this something you would use leading up to a show or would you need to stop using it a week out or so?
Also how long does this stay in your system?
Thanks again
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
k8thegr8, while it’s true that the main pharmacological activity is blocking cortisol, a weak androgenic effect is possible.
And, with women unfortunately there’s no telling, in each individual case, just how little androgenic effect may tip the balance. There are cases in the medical literature of women suffering permanent voice change from single-dose low dose injections or very brief, very low dose oral androgen use.
It just can’t be predicted. The only thing that’s predictable is IF a woman has already taken the risk and used androgens (anabolic steroids) and hasn’t suffered ill effect, then in the future if she takes less than that it’s fairly predictable that lesser amount will be tolerable in the future.
So if a woman said, for example, Well I’ve done cycles of Deca at 100 mg/week and had no adverse effect – and if she really didn’t – and then she wanted to use 11-T at say 7 sprays instead of 35, then I guess I would say “It’s your choice, you would probably be OK.”
But lacking existing proof of tolerance to androgens, I can’t recommend a woman using ANY amount of the 11-T.[/quote]
Thanks for the information Bill. Not willing to take the risks, so I guess I’ll have to hold off. Looks like a great product though… wish there was a way to make it with absolutely no androgenic effects. Work on that for me, will ya?
If applying twice per day, then time of application should matter little.
We don’t have pharmacokinetics on this but did do so with Androsol. Levels were high and pretty much rock-steady for 8 hours and still continued though with some decline for a number of hours after that, from single application.
So 2x/day application should be effective for 24 hours.
Additionally, the inhibition is not of the adrenals production of cortisol, which as you say is very much related to the time of day, but of peripheral conversion of cortisone to cortisol, which is an around-the-clock issue.
So whatever times are convenient and not so drastically far away from 12 hours apart (for example, 10 and 14 hours would probably be indistinguisable from 12 and 12, but 4 and 20 would be inefficient) should be used.
Thank you Bill, great response as usual.
I’ll wait and see what other guy experience in the coming weeks.
k8thegr8, for the dermal (and only dermal, in this other case) fat loss effect from the inhibition of cortisone to cortisol, as well as additional topical fat loss benefits, we ARE coming out with a completely non-androgenic topical product.
It’s actually by far the most comprehensive such product made, and with really effective delivery.
The “androgenic water retention” (so far as I know, this is strictly a personal term that no one else uses) that I was talking about is entirely within muscle. It is not a problem for shows, but a plus.