Oh and is there anything you shouldn’t stack this with?
(Sorry, but I had to ask.) 
[quote]AngryVader wrote:
Oh and is there anything you shouldn’t stack this with?
(Sorry, but I had to ask.) :)[/quote]
Good question, I have plenty of stored BT 4-AD-EC.
[quote]AngryVader wrote:
Does this have a shelf life? Like if I bought some today and didn’t plan on using it for 2-3 months, I assuming that wouldn’t be an issue as far as it losing potency, right?[/quote]
I would think 2-3 months would be fine, especially unopened. Of course I didn’t make the stuff, but that would be my guess.
I’m a little confused. It only blocks cortisol, right? So it would be safe for females (over 21)? Meaning, it wouldn’t turn me into a man, right?
Homer23, on the skin transfer concern: Once the product has completely dried, transfer to another person’s skin really isn’t an issue. Most is dissolved into the top layer of the skin, and the remainder is adhering very tightly to that top layer.
If any of that came off, the tendency to re-adhere would be very low. It’s only the Androsol-type application that yields the strong bonding.
There was no issue with Androsol including when having sex. And 4-AD was much more androgenic than 17b-hydroxyadrenosterone is.
I would not be concerned with hugging the wife – or any amount of contact EXCEPT her using rubbing alcohol or oils and her bare hands on applied areas – but just out of habitual deliberately excessive concern when it comes to babies, I wouldn’t have an applied area touching the baby.
Not because I think it actually possible that there would be a significant transfer, but just out of general principles.
It doesn’t make sense why women couldn’t use it.
k8thegr8, while it’s true that the main pharmacological activity is blocking cortisol, a weak androgenic effect is possible.
And, with women unfortunately there’s no telling, in each individual case, just how little androgenic effect may tip the balance. There are cases in the medical literature of women suffering permanent voice change from single-dose low dose injections or very brief, very low dose oral androgen use.
It just can’t be predicted. The only thing that’s predictable is IF a woman has already taken the risk and used androgens (anabolic steroids) and hasn’t suffered ill effect, then in the future if she takes less than that it’s fairly predictable that lesser amount will be tolerable in the future.
So if a woman said, for example, Well I’ve done cycles of Deca at 100 mg/week and had no adverse effect – and if she really didn’t – and then she wanted to use 11-T at say 7 sprays instead of 35, then I guess I would say “It’s your choice, you would probably be OK.”
But lacking existing proof of tolerance to androgens, I can’t recommend a woman using ANY amount of the 11-T.
Well screw it, I bought mine. Won’t be using it for a few months though. Hopefully by then we’ll have some nice reviews.
I would love to hear the details of Tim Patterson’s quote of “Just try a 2 week cycle and you’ll see what I mean.” Or it was something along those lines. Lets hear it guys, we want details!!!
Matttchew, there are two important differences between this and the 11-OXO product:
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The structure is a different (though similar) and more potent one
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The dermal application is far more efficient. While the price of the 11-T is --necessarily because of extreme cost to make – more expensive to the customer, than we’d like it to be, I wouldn’t even want to think about what the production cost would be for a similarly effective oral dose of either 17b-hydroxyadrenosterone acetate or the unesterified version.
I would have to ask Tim on what the bioequivalence ratio was but as a rough guess, I suppose our cost in making an equally effective oral would be at least two or three hundred dollars a bottle.
So yes, the dermal application isn’t a small difference.
Also, the dermal is better for the localized effect of being “harder” appearing, due to more effectively targeting dermal fat.
AngryVader, there hasn’t been a specific time-course study on shelf-life, but the parent structure 17b-hydroxyadrenosterone has no unstable chemical features and while the acetate ester could slowly – very slowly – cleave in the isopropyl alcohol solution, in the space of just a few months there would be very little of that.
Refrigerating it or keeping it in the freezer if desired would allow keeping it practically forever. While the 17b-hydroxyadrenosterone acetate will come out of solution, simply allowing it some time to warm back up and if necessary shaking occasionally till fully redissolved will completely return it to same-as-new.
(By the way, regarding 17b-hydroxyadrenosterone acetate, I’ve got to come up with an abbreviation for that! I would not want to say 11-ketotestosterone acetate as an alternate name, as that sounds naughty, and it really is not biologically a sex hormone steroid but an adrenal steroid. Maybe I should call it “ADR 17-acetate” or something like that…)
Would it be safe to use this product in addition to other Prohormones? I’m currently on a cycle of Havoc.
Hey Bill, about time you did some work around here. :^P
How about calling it AD-17?
Thanks, Mage!
I have a concern about “AD” because it’s been used before for androgen prohormone such as 4-AD (4-androstenediol). “ADR” as an abbreviation for adrenosterone hopefully would convey the difference.
Your idea of just using 17 in the abbreviation – most of the time anyway – and not saying what the 17 is, in other words not saying 17-acetate, sounds good to me. All the abbreviations used in the past, for example 4-AD again, don’t say what the number refers to.
So “17-ADR” may be the way to go.
EstoVir, I can’t see there being a conflict with any other prohormones. No problem.
OK to apply to scrotum for increased absorption?
[quote]icecold wrote:
OK to apply to scrotum for increased absorption or are there any unwanted side affects like irritation or too much DHT at this location?[/quote]
The instructions for use say to avoid spraying on the genitals and face.
When using MAG-10 in the past I had red spots develop around my lower belly and thighs nad I had to discontinue use.
When I used your Andro Spray a few years ago I did not get that reaction.
I realize it would be difficult to predict but based on the above info do you think I may get a reaction from this new product or do I just have to try it and see for myself?
What about in terms of WADA testing or IOC standards, can it be detected as a banned substance? I guess not because its not on a list but is it a metabolite of something thats banned?
Thanks
So… ideally you wouldn’t rub the product in, just mist and then let dry?
icecold, hopefully you are kidding about applying to the scrotum!
That would be intensely painful. Even overspray reaching the scrotum hurts like a sumbitch.
Now it’s true the pharmaceutical industry wasted their time with a transdermal testosterone delivery system that was applied to the scrotum, but the bioavailability was terrible compared to the Androsol-type method.
The pharmaceutical approach was, “Well, transdermal gels and other solutions applied to the skin are unpleasant having on there all day, so let’s minimize the area applied to.”
My approach was to do the reverse and use a vast area and a method that has zero unpleasantness when present all day.
Since greater area allows a greater amount delivered, and since research from Dr Annette Bunge at the Colorado School of mines discovered that extremely light bonded application generally allows equal delivery to a solid coat, it’s possible to far outperform the pharmaceutical approach with the Androsol-type method.
Scrotal delivery couldn’t come at all close.