Something Wicked This Way Comes... Again

Nutrition
528

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Willith wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Now that this is back and stock and mine should be arriving soon, how have people been using it? 35 sprays once per day? Or split into two doses? Maybe 17 sprays and 18 sprays.

35 sprays x 2 daily (70 total) That’s the recommended dosage…that’s what I’d go with (that’s what I went with)

x2[/quote]
and just to clarify previous posts, that’s a dosage appropriate for the average 185 lb. male, so someone around 300lbs would use around 50 sprays 2x a day, correct?

529

Sounds good. Thanks for the input guys.

530

[quote]matsm21 wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
Willith wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Now that this is back and stock and mine should be arriving soon, how have people been using it? 35 sprays once per day? Or split into two doses? Maybe 17 sprays and 18 sprays.

35 sprays x 2 daily (70 total) That’s the recommended dosage…that’s what I’d go with (that’s what I went with)

x2
and just to clarify previous posts, that’s a dosage appropriate for the average 185 lb. male, so someone around 300lbs would use around 50 sprays 2x a day, correct?

[/quote]

Does it say dosage is based on size?

531

[quote]matsm21 wrote:

and just to clarify previous posts, that’s a dosage appropriate for the average 185 lb. male, so someone around 300lbs would use around 50 sprays 2x a day, correct?

[/quote]

Not necessarily, just use enough to cover your entire body (except of course for the areas mentioned where you’re not suppose to use it- face, hands, balls, feet)

The best trick to using the stuff, which took me about a day or two to get down, was keeping the bottle in motion when you spray. That is to say, don’t hold the bottle still, spray, and then move the bottle to the next spot. It covers more surface area when doing it the first way.

532

[quote]matsm21 wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
Willith wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Now that this is back and stock and mine should be arriving soon, how have people been using it? 35 sprays once per day? Or split into two doses? Maybe 17 sprays and 18 sprays.

35 sprays x 2 daily (70 total) That’s the recommended dosage…that’s what I’d go with (that’s what I went with)

x2
and just to clarify previous posts, that’s a dosage appropriate for the average 185 lb. male, so someone around 300lbs would use around 50 sprays 2x a day, correct?

[/quote]

No. It does not say it’s size dependent. 70 sprays max per day is what is recommended.

533

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Now that this is back and stock and mine should be arriving soon, how have people been using it?
[/quote]

I have several bottles coming this week. I was very much impressed with the results from the first bottle. I should have purchased two the first time before they ran out. I’ve been anticipating the new stock for a while now.

I’d recommend anyone who can afford the stuff to buy at least one bottle and give it a try. If it doesn’t work for you there’s a money back guarantee.

But man, I love this stuff!

534

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
borobarco2 wrote:
Bill, I saw it was already asked, but how does weight of the user affect the amount of sprays. It says apprx 35 sprays as a serving.
Is that true if you weigh 150,200,250?
Or does it change if you want to lose vs gain weight?

The figure is relative to an approximate median for a male weight trainer in moderately lean condition. I tend to assume 185 or somewhere around there as being about that median. So really, anyone in the 170-200 range is within 10% of that, which is less than individual variation in other respects. Even the range of say 150-220 is only plus or minus 20%, which again is less than what other individual dose response variations could be expected to be.

Greater bodyweight that is due to fat would not be reason for higher dose. But if one is say a pretty tall guy that is say 240 or more and fairly lean, then yes, knocking up the dose proportionally (by about a third in that case) would make sense.

If someone is considerably smaller than that nominal (I don’t know if it’s factual, it is just an arbitrary figure) median, say 140 lb, then if desired to extend the time the bottle will last, it would be okay to cut the dose proportionately, in that case by about 25%, but if the individual felt absolutely fine with the full 35 sprays (no bothersome overstimulatory effect; that is the only respect in which we anticipate anyone being bothered) there would be nothing wrong with that either.

On the gaining versus losing weight: it is possible that, if having a dieting plan of such a time length, and choosing to spend a given amount on the product, that using half the dose for twice the time might be more cost-effective when dieting. Not more effective per unit time, but since the time is doubled, perhaps more effective in total.

[/quote]

I didn’t look hard enough for the post…here it is, it is size dependant.

535

But in practice that isn’t the gist of what I said: the great majority of male adult users who are experienced lifters – and there should not be any other kind of user – are not any great percentage off the median.

Secondly, and not mentioned in the above, increased size above the expected median for a male weight trainer that is due to greater acquisition of muscle may not call for higher amounts, as the amount needed is probably more dependent on clearance rate, which is more an effect of the liver one’s genetics provide, which clearance rate is probably not increased as a result of gaining more muscle.

The instructions per the label, which don’t call for accounting for size, are generally correct.

But for example if you are Mark Henry then quite possibly best dosage would be different.

536

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
figmopoly wrote:
Bill, first I wanted to tell you I’ve been a fan of Biotest products for quite some time. I’ve always been impressed with your innovation and the support you provide customers in this forum. I tried MAG-10 and 4-AD-EC and really look forward to getting 11-T. But I just had 2 questions:

  1. Would 11-T be as effective as 4-AD-EC was during cutting cycles? If so, what are the other Biotest products you’d recommend to stack with it for a cutting cycle?

  2. When I’d cycle off MAG-10 or 4-AD-EC, I’d feel down–nothing horrible, but definitely mildly depressed. Will cycling off 11-T yield the same result? If so, what can I do to mitigate that?

Thanks and congratulations on 11-T.

Thanks, figmopoly!

I expect considerable individual variation. I would expect it though to at least match 4-AD-EC for cutting cycles.

Principally other Biotest products to stack with it for cutting cycles would be, main item, HOT-ROX. If, as most people can, one can tolerate the yohimbine in the Extreme then go with that. If not, then the Maximum Strength.

Second optional item, Carbolin 19. Even though Extreme already has a good dose of the same active (FC), HOT-ROX really can’t or shouldn’t be taken around the clock, whereas FC being in the system around the clock is helpful. So for example with Extreme, 1 capsule of Carbolin 19 with each of the 2 daily doses of HRX, and an additional 2 capsules in the evening, improves results.

With the Maximum Strength, I use 2 capsules of Carbolin 19 with each HOT-ROX dose, and then 2 final capsules in the evening. (Yes, that’s above label recommendation, and is only a personal example. I have not done anything towards seeing whether or not this is appropriate for most people in general.)

As non-Biotest items, absolutely get some Vitamin D. 4000 IU a day can ge a substantial help to fat loss. The RDA for Vitamin D is absolutely nowhere near the optimal level, existing supplements one is likely to take are unlikely to total anywhere near to an optimal amount, and Vitamin D is not much present in food, including not in Vitamin D supplemented milk. Unless one is out in strong sun an hour a day in sunnier latitudes, one probably does not have optimal levels.

Olive oil is also helpful (should be cold-pressed extra virgin.) Personally I’ve never liked the taste, but actually a tablespoon mixed into an MRP or protein shake is okay even to me. There is a lot of research showing substantial benefits to monounsaturated fats, and olive oil is a fairly concentrated and probably the most economical choice.

(Macadamia nuts are even more concentrated, but are expensive and I will eat too much of them, whereas I don’t do that with olive oil. Tea seed oil, also known as camellia oil, is also even more concentrated in MUFA’s than olive oil, and may taste better, but personally I haven’t tried it. I’ve seen it online for $14 per 500 mL.)

A couple of tablespoons per day seems a good amount. Of course, not as added calories, but as a replacement for something else.

And EFA’s, of course.

I also use Solaray brand “Cool Cayenne” capsules.

EGCG is a good thing also, and is cheap.[/quote]

Bill, I thought this was a great post and having just received my first bottle, brings up several questions I have.

First, having one bottle, would taking the full bottle, approximately 24 days be better and then taking something like Alpha Male to return to baseline, or breaking the dosing up into something like 14 days on, 14 days off, and then finishing the bottle?

Would Alpha Male be most beneficial during 11-T or afterwards, or both?

Finally, could you also list supps to be used in conjunction when bulking on 11-T, much in the same way you did here for cutting?

Thanks, really looking forward both to your response as well trying this bad boy!

537

Comparing an equal number of days, I think it would be better to do for example 12 days on, some number (such as 14) days off, then 12 days on again, than do 24 days straight.

Or to do for example 14 days on, 14 (or so) days off, then 10 days on.

The reason is that recovery of natural T production is especially fast when a cycle is no more than 14 days. Past that point, a further mode of suppression occurs where the hypothalamus becomes less sensitive to whatever LHRH (LH releasing hormone) that is produced by the pituitary. But at and prior to that point, sensitivity is actually enhanced to better-than-usual, and so recovery is just remarkably fast when a cycle is limited to this length.

Alpha Male would be most beneficial in the off days.

The most important thing when gaining muscle on a cycle is taking in suitable amounts of protein and carbs. Surge (full dose both before and after workout) is very helpful towards accomplishing this in the workout part of the day.

Beta-alanine enhances work capacity. This won’t make a dramatic difference in gains but is useful. Anti-oxidants do the same (including Superfood but for example Vitamin C, four grams or so, in a gallon of water that will be drunk, including when used for shakes, across the day is helpful – stabilized R-ALA is also valuable.) Depending on the person, having increased neural drive can help a fair bit: for example I use Power Drive and Spike, and usually with added acetyl-L-carnitine.

I haven’t proved actual benefit but have had good results while using sublingual melatonin pre-workout and taking a lot of arginine/ornithine AKG – the theory behind this, if it does work, is increased GH release. If nothing else the A/O AKG seems to result in increased splooge production, so there’s that even if nothing else. By large amount, personally that’s 2 tablespoons.

But the most important thing is good and consistent, yet not excessive, food intake. A little planning makes a big difference. For example, looking up the nutritional information before going to CiCi’s pizza buffet reveals that the mix of carbs, protein and fat is fairly good, and all it takes is four slices, five at tops, for a meal an hour-after-the-post-workout Surge to be suitable, in my personal case. Whereas if I did not look that up, I might figure that I would need six slices or whatever, but in fact that would be more calories than best at one time for me.

I don’t think there’s a value to caloric intake resulting in a fat gain beyond about a pound per week absolute worst case, or 1/2 pound per week as probably an ideal figure.

Not taking in enough severely impairs results.

Carbs and protein are more important when performance-enhanced than fats. With no added androgen, fat has to or should be kept up to a still-quite-substantial value, else natural T drops. Where this is not an issue, then the same calories being carbs will do much more towards recovery from work and towards promoting muscle growth than the same calories from fat. So percent intake from fat should be less when “on.”

538

Thanks, extremely helpful!

I just finished reading through the entire thread, and I know you mentioned several times information regarding macronutrient breakdown while taking 11-T, and I get the distinct impression you feel lower fat, ~30%, and high protein is the best. If I am wrong, I apologize, but in any case, do you feel the Anabolic Diet would not be suitable for this supp, or that the anabolic diet is a specific diet that would do well while on 11-T?

539

The Anabolic Diet would be OK if cutting and having confidence with this sort of diet for cutting.

The reason for preferring carb calories to fat calories has to do with gaining muscle as rapidly as possible: in the cutting situation, it remains true that keeping carbs down – not necessarily as far down as the AD has them, but at least modest – is helpful.

540

Bill, can you help me out here. I was planning on doing a cycle consisting of:

  1. 11-T (2x35 sprays/day)
  2. Gaspari Novedex XT (60 mg. blend per cap: 6,17-keto-etiocholeve-3-ol tetrahydropyranol, 3,17-keto-etiochol-triene, 3,5,7-trihydroxy-4’-methoxyflavone–3 caps before bed)
  3. Carbolin 19-19 (2 caps/day)
  4. L-carnitine, l-tartrate (2grms./day)
  5. Rez-V (3 caps/day)

This would be part of a mass cycle lasting 8 weeks:

3 weeks on 11-T while training
1 week deloading phase while off 11-T

REPEAT above MICRO-CYCLE

Novadex XT, Carbolin 19-19, Carnitine and Rez-V continuously for 8 weeks

A) Would the Novadex XT add to the effects via a different mechanism, namely T stimulation? Does it even make sense to use a supplement designed to stimulate endogenous T production while simultaneously using a substance that may be, at least mildly, suppressive?

B) Would this cycle be highly suppressive?

C) Does the addition of the Carbolin 19-19 add anything to the stack? Could it possibly add to the anabolic effects of the other supplements while allowing me to eat slightly more calories without gaining body fat–as you guys call it a “thermogenic anabolic”?

D) Or would it be best to stick to 2 week cycles of the 11-T, followed by two weeks off in which I used the Novadex XT and Carbolin 19-19?

Thanks for the help in sorting this out,

Crowbar

P.S., if it matters I’m now 47y.o.

541
  1. Again for the same total number of weeks done, I would much rather see the 11-T used in cycles of 2 weeks rather then three.

As for “Novedex” (I put the name in quotes because of its attempt to copy the name of a pharmaceutical drug of highly similar name) the claims of increasing testosterone are based on bogus research.

I do not blame Gaspari for this – the reference they cite is in a peer-reviewed journal by scientists from a respectable university – but rather the scientists who wrote the article, which is complete and obvious nonsense. What actually happened is that they used a method of analysis supposedly for testosterone which is known to also pick up one of the ingredients in “Novedex” as, falsely, being testosterone.

So it didn’t take any increase in testosterone for the test to show a huge increase: simply picking up the “Novedex” did that.

The research did not show it effective in reducing estrogen, either.

The Carbolin 19-19 will add some further benefit both for fat loss and muscle gain.

Carnitine is always a beneficial nutrient (unless taking enough acetyl-L-carnitine in which case I don’t think it’s necessary to take regular carnitine as well.)

I wouldn’t use the term “highly suppressive” though what a person means by that expression would vary with the individual. I use it to mean a cycle which is completely suppressive by the androgenic mechanism as well as completely suppressive by the estrogenic mechanism (even worse would be if there is progestagenic inhibition too.)

That is not the case with the 11-T cycle. There are no estrogenic inhibition effects, and the androgenic inhibition is probably only partial.

542

Bill, thanks much for the response.

OK, if I DID use an effective T stimulating supplement (a Tribulus/vitex/eurycoma based supplement), would it make sense to use it simultaneously with the 11-T? Would it add to the anabolic effects or merely be counteracted by the suppressive effects of the 11-T? Would it be best to use it between cycles of the 11-T?

How long can one use a T booster continuously before negative feedback renders it ineffective–4 weeks,6,8?

Thanks again,

Crowbar

543

You know, it could be the case that in the case of something that was sufficiently moderately suppressive, a T booster might reduce that degree of inhibition.

But if it’s so, it’s not shown so far as I know. I have been following as a result the general principle that if T is suppressed anyway and results are being obtained thanks to exogenous supplied compound with androgenic effect (or partially thanks to that) then the time to use the T booster is post-cycle.

So it might well be a waste, but on the other hand I suppose there’s a chance of benefit.

On the duration of use of something like TRIBEX, I’ve never looked into it. The within-week cycling plan generally recommened for TRIBEX seems to work fine indefinitely.

For purposes of post-cycle use, using straight for the first 2 weeks also works fine. I don’t know how long one might go before off days or weeks become beneficial.

544

Bill, thanks for the help. You stated pretty much what I had assumed to be the case; however, I might try an experiment and do one cycle alternating between 11-T and a T booster for two weeks each, and one cycle where I use both simultaneously for three weeks.

Again, great to have your input!

Thanks,

Crowbar

545

Glad to be of any help, Crowbar!

546

One more question along this line: since T is secreted mostly at night would it make sense to take a T booster before bed on non-training days?

Does it make sense to take a T booster “one hour before workouts” as I’ve seen some companies state–that is, is there really an acute response to a T booster as opposed to a chronic response?

Thanks,

Crowbar

547

Dunno. If spikes have been demonstrated I didn’t know it but that doesn’t mean this could not have been shown.