Alpha Male has no androgenic effects for women because it doesn’t stimulate testosterone production in women.
It doesn’t have noticeable androgenic effects in men either despite increases in testosterone (but much less increase then from injecting testosterone at typical steroid-use levels) because men are, generally – except for say Leonardo DiCaprio – fully androgenized by maturity.
I wouldn’t really expect noticeable androgenic effect in men from 11-T either. As an example, you don’t usually see noticeable androgenic effect in a man from say injecting 500 mg/week testosterone either.
(Maybe acne in some individuals but that is not necessarily really androgenic either: consider that teenage girls can have bad acne also. It may be more from hormonal change rather than actual amount, and apparently doesn’t have to be androgen that is changing.)
But in women, far less than that will be severely virilizing (androgenizing.)
My understanding from T-Nation’s script is that 11T is a hormone, but is molecularly dissimilar enough from testosterone or its precursors to arguably be non-controlled.
Questions:
Is it androgenic?
Can it cause HPTA feedback inhibiton?
Can it aromatize?
Does it reduce to any substance or metabolite that can cause inhibition or can aromatize?
Yes, both in that the 11-keto substitution is typical of corticosteroids not anabolic steroids, and that biologically it is a product of adrenosterone, produced by 17b-reduction of that compound, which is itself an adrenal steroid. And also that pharmacologically it differs in being an 11b-HSD Type 1 inhibitor as its pharmacological class.
On the questions,
Almost undoubtedly to some degree, but relative to anabolic steroids a quite low degree. However even that is too much for women. Physically demonstrating that would be an awful experiment with irreversible consequences that we are not going to do, but the chances of it not being so are I think kind of like those of losing 5 lb fat in one day by eating an entire wedding cake that day. There’s not really a point in testing such an unlikely hypothesis (that it would have absolutely zero androgenicity.)
I expect yes.
While that would be a harmless experiment to conduct, it’s simpler just to stipulate that it does suppress the HPTA and plan accordingly, hence our cycling recommendations which result in any HPTA suppression being no problem. Doing a study on that would have a quite negligible, IMO, chance of yielding information resulting in a different recommendation. It would be interesting, but have very very little chance of resulting in a different decision. Probably no better than the wedding cake example. In such cases there’s about no practical point in doing that. So we conclude that this effect should be expected and planned for.
Taking your statement technically, yes it can undergo the reaction. Taking the statement to mean does it yield an estrogenic product after aromatization, the answer is no. The aromatization product is inactive.
I suppose it may well undergo 5-alpha reduction but if so that isn’t of importance. It is not, by the way, that there is anything evil or bad about 5-alpha reduction per se, it is only that if and pretty much only if the starting substance is testosterone, then that reaction results in a very specific substance DHT. The fact that another substance is 5-alpha reduced, if it is, in itself means nothing (though I know many steroid books write as if it did.)
Incidentally, aromatization after 5-alpha reduction (or the other way around) is impossible. They are mutually contradictory processes. Aromatase cannot work on a 5-alpha reduced substance, and 5-AR cannot work on an aromatized substance.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
11-keto and and 11-OXO are the same thing.
(Oxo and keto mean the same thing in chemistry: an oxygen double-bonded to a carbon within the compound at the location named.)
I think our product is quite substantially superior, which is why we did it. I can’t quantitate how much so.
[/quote]
I thought OXO was the precursor to the active androgen 11-oxotestosterone. Anyhow, thanks for the input. Unfortuanately, the orals are available and 11-T is currently not. But I’ll definitely see how much better results are with 11-T when it comes back in stock.
Oh, your question wasn’t intended then as 11-ketotestosterone versus 11-oxotesterone, which are the same, but rather versus 11-ketoandrostenedione, aka adrenosterone.
Yes, those are different.
I don’t know how the oral bioavailability compares between those two. Good question but I don’t know, haven’t looked into it.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Oh, your question wasn’t intended then as 11-ketotestosterone versus 11-oxotesterone, which are the same, but rather versus 11-ketoandrostenedione, aka adrenosterone.
Yes, those are different.
I don’t know how the oral bioavailability compares between those two. Good question but I don’t know, haven’t looked into it.[/quote]
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
I know 2 bottles were recommended, but at what point would one see diminishing returns?
With the way this product is supposed to work I would think you could keep seeing impressive gains even after more than 2 bottles.[/quote]
I don’t think there was an intent to suggest that there was no point or less point past two bottles, but rather that a product can be better evaluated and with much more confidence after four weeks of use than just two weeks. The recommendation was probably in comparison to one bottle, not to more than two.
On time frame to restock, I really have no idea. There actually isn’t a reason I’d necessarily be informed any sooner than the site in general.
I’m not aware of body composition improvement from Rhodiola use at all similar to that from 11-T.
I’m not an expert on Rhodiola but I had thought its value was probably related largely to the CNS being stressed. Perhaps someone can be more accurate or complete on that point.
Now that this is back and stock and mine should be arriving soon, how have people been using it? 35 sprays once per day? Or split into two doses? Maybe 17 sprays and 18 sprays.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Now that this is back and stock and mine should be arriving soon, how have people been using it? 35 sprays once per day? Or split into two doses? Maybe 17 sprays and 18 sprays.[/quote]
35 sprays x 2 daily (70 total) That’s the recommended dosage…that’s what I’d go with (that’s what I went with)
[quote]Willith wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Now that this is back and stock and mine should be arriving soon, how have people been using it? 35 sprays once per day? Or split into two doses? Maybe 17 sprays and 18 sprays.
35 sprays x 2 daily (70 total) That’s the recommended dosage…that’s what I’d go with (that’s what I went with)[/quote]