Something Wicked This Way Comes... Again

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote: If I buy two bottles, and the product doesn’t work, can I get my money back for both bottles?

I realize you only get a refund for your first order of a product. But my understanding is that this means the first single item?

I’d like to try the product, but if I order, I’ll want to give it a fair shake by ordering two bottles. I’d have to be stuck with a bottle if the product doesn’t work for me.[/quote]

Yes, if you’re not satisfied with the results from the first bottle, you can return both bottles (the second one unused) for a full refund on both.

If on the other hand, you use both bottles and then ask for a refund, you’ll only get your money back on one. The reason being, you should know whether or not you like the product before you’re through with the first bottle. And allowing people to go through multiple bottles and then get a full refund (on all bottles) would be setting us up for scam artists – and there are many online.

We actually had one guy try to return 16 empty bottles of Power Drive, which were purchased over a three-year period. Needless to say, the answer was “NO!”

I’m assuming it’s OK to use finasteride/propecia (to combat potential hairloss) with 11-T?

[quote]Tim Patterson wrote:

We actually had one guy try to return 16 empty bottles of Power Drive, which were purchased over a three-year period. Needless to say, the answer was “NO!”
[/quote]

lol People are so screwed up.

I ordered 2 bottles.

So as far as training and nutrition goes:

If one is looking to put on muscle, just keep eating a lot and kicking ass in the gym while using this stuff?

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
barbellman wrote:
Is 11-T okay to stack with other Biotest products like Alpha Male and Rhodiola Rosea?

Yes, though there’s probably no point to taking Alpha Male at the same time as the 11-T.

[/quote]

Thank you Bill, one more question, from what I read the cycling guidelines for 11-T are two weeks on, two weeks off, could you take Alpha Male on the off weeks, or would this be a bad idea?

Tim or Bill,

Pardon my ignorance, but isn’t cortisol PWO a good thing in the sense that it helps to mobilize/oxidize (?) fatty tissue? I understand it is also catabolic, but I thought there are times (and also body comp goals) where cortisol is desirable.

Is there a best time of DAY to apply this?

Such as:

A) PWO (after a quick rinse)
B) pre-workout
C) morning
D) before bed

Also, is it best to apply more on leaner areas, because you’d want cortisol (assuming my first paragraph regarding cortisol’s function is accurate) to mobilize the fattier tissue (i.e. LESS lean areas) of the body?

Hope that made sense. Thanks for answering questions, you guys have been great.

I’m 17, so prohormones are a world I’ve never even considered.

I’ve read through the entire thread and it’s obvious a ton of research needs to be done before I can decide on this.

So, would the use of this product mean that the user is not a natural weight trainer?

Also, it sounds like it would be a waste for the vast majority of guys to spray this on their hairy legs, right.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
barbellman wrote:
Is 11-T okay to stack with other Biotest products like Alpha Male and Rhodiola Rosea?

Yes, though there’s probably no point to taking Alpha Male at the same time as the 11-T.

[/quote]

Thank you Bill, one more question, the cycling guidelines for 11-T are two weeks on, two weeks off, could you take Alpha Male on the off weeks, or would this be a bad idea?

So what is reccomended one or two servings?
I am dieting right now and would like a brief on when to use the 2 servings per day vs the once per day

Thanks in advance

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
BeforeIforget wrote:
So is there a timeframe we should wait after putting this stuff on before going to the gym?

Not really, it’s a matter of minutes at most before being ready to get dressed, and from that point on, sweating doesn’t matter.

If showering is desired well prior to the next application, then simply running the water (no soap to applied areas) and blotting such areas dry (not rubbing) will avoid significant losses. That’s good enough to get sweat off.

[/quote]

So to avoid any loses would it be better to wake up, train, shower and spray, then shower and spray 10-12 hours later.

Or should we be training with it definitly on the skin and showering as long as we don’t soap or scrub would cause no distinguishable lose.

Sorry if you technically already answered this but it wasn’t totally clear to me

[quote]Willith wrote:
I’m assuming it’s OK to use finasteride/propecia (to combat potential hairloss) with 11-T?[/quote]
There’s a good chance it would be irrelevant. But it would not be directly harmful and conceivably could help.

It would be helpful only if 17-ADR is a substrate for 5-alpha reducatase AND if the 5-alpha reduced metabolite is more potent in any hairloss effect, if there is one, than 17-ADR itself or has a metabolite unfavorable to the hair, as is the case with DHT.

There is a chance, about as good as not, that finasteride might prevent deactivation or lessening in terms of adverse effect on the hair) of 17-ADR, if there is an such adverse effect and if 5-alpha reduction results in an inert or less-potent-on-the-hair substance.

[quote]muscleshark wrote:
Also, it sounds like it would be a waste for the vast majority of guys to spray this on their hairy legs, right.[/quote]

It depends on how hairy. I think my legs are average in that regard, and unlike the frontal torso I don’t use a clipper on them (I think it would look odd, whereas the frontal torso looks better that way) and the hair is not an issue.

But if visually it’s obvious that a substantial part of the spray is clinging to the hair, then yes, there’s a problem with that location for that person.

[quote]muscleshark wrote:
I’m 17, so prohormones are a world I’ve never even considered.

I’ve read through the entire thread and it’s obvious a ton of research needs to be done before I can decide on this.

So, would the use of this product mean that the user is not a natural weight trainer?
[/quote]

Not to dismiss your question, I have no intent of sounding dismissive and actually quite the opposite, but that largely is a question of how people mean words, and people mean words differently.

For example a friend who was an AAU bodybuilder and competitive at a pretty high level was an avid anti-steroid guy. He would never use them, considered them morally wrong.

But despite my telling him that pharmacologically Androsol, and then after that, MAG-10 were the same as anabolic steroids, the only difference being naturally occurring and not banned legally, as far as he was concerned there were A-OK. He absolutely loved them.

And I’m quite certain he still considered himself a natural lifter, and so did the AAU.

But in terms of, did he push his physique to a point that he wasn’t going to attain without hormonal help, yes he did. And if one wants to call that not natural, that’s also a reasonable use of the word.

On yet the other hand, 17-ADR is a naturally occurring substance present in food and already present in your bloodstream in quite substantial amounts – you’re just getting more of what nature provides. So from that perspective we can call it natural.

[quote]barbellman wrote:

Thank you Bill, one more question, from what I read the cycling guidelines for 11-T are two weeks on, two weeks off, could you take Alpha Male on the off weeks, or would this be a bad idea?[/quote]

That would be fine and I think helpful. Way back in the olden days, around the time of Androsol, Brock Strasser hypothesized and found that taking Vitex (the herbal extract, not any particular brand) along with TRIBEX was much better for recovery post-cycle than TRIBEX alone.

We wanted to see if that was true for more than one person before looking into it yet further, and so I personally for a pretty extended period quit using Clomid post-cycle and used TRIBEX plus Vitex. This was completely successful for me.

In fact I tested it in the context of 2 on / 1 off cycles, which obviously is more challenging to recovery than 2 weeks off, and this was so effective that after a number of months testicular size was a little above baseline (despite LH being suppressed 2/3 of the time.)

That effect of larger size also occurs with Clomid, by the way, so it’s not a miracle, it’s just being effective.

Others also did this and seemingly everyone was impressed with that herbal combination.

That being so, and Alpha Male today including both those herbal ingredients and being more advanced than the old TRIBEX plus Vitex, no question there’s an advantage compared to using nothing.

But it’s not necessary if having two weeks off.

Also I don’t really recommend for others the 2 on / 1 off protocol. It can be done, but why not do some 2 and 2 first. And realistically, one isn’t going to be making mass gains 26 weeks out of the year anyway, and should not even be aiming to in terms of the training plan.

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
Tim or Bill,

Pardon my ignorance, but isn’t cortisol PWO a good thing in the sense that it helps to mobilize/oxidize (?) fatty tissue? I understand it is also catabolic, but I thought there are times (and also body comp goals) where cortisol is desirable. [/quote]

What you say has certainly been said and written many times, but the evidence is much more mixed and the more relevant studies indicate no effect or the opposite effect, inhibition of lipolysis.

At least in the context of abdominal (including visceral) fat and in the context of chronic effect of cortisol, as opposed to very short term effect such as only 6 hours of exposure.

For example,
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/jcem;85/2/799 is in the “reverse effect” category.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=301898 is in the category of “no relevant effect with regard to response to exercise.”

In any event, 17-ADR will not reduce systemic cortisol levels. So if there’s a systemic rise in the bloodstream post-exercise, it’s still going to be able to have whatever effect it has.

However, the effect of tissues being able to locally increase their cortisol levels, which happens on a chronic basis, is reduced by 17-ADR.

It does seem to make a whole lot more sense that the chronic effect of cortisol is towards being fatter, not leaner. 17-ADR will reduce the chronic effect in adipose tissue. The acute (momentary) effect from the body at the moment changing systemic levels may be the opposite, but it won’t be affected.

[quote]Is there a best time of DAY to apply this?

Such as:

A) PWO (after a quick rinse)
B) pre-workout
C) morning
D) before bed[/quote]

Levels should be pretty steady for at least 8 hours, maybe 12 or more, from each application so the timing relevance has to do with when one will want to be showering thoroughly with soap, and factors of convenience.

I would favor the reverse, aside from the previous reasons given, because another 11b-HSD reductase Type 1 inhibitor, glycyrhettinic acid, has been shown effective in reducing fat topically where applied.

So I’d favor areas where increased fat loss is desired, rather than avoid them.

It was asked a few posts ago, but i’m a guy who has considerable amount of hair on my body. Would the spray have to be rubbed in to make sure it gets past the hair and onto the skin?

[quote]HD8 wrote:
So what is reccomended one or two servings?
I am dieting right now and would like a brief on when to use the 2 servings per day vs the once per day

Thanks in advance[/quote]

The value of using only once per day is if:

  1. There’s an intent to go an extended period of time rather than follow the label instructions and limit use to 2 weeks on then at least 2 weeks off,

  2. It’s possible but not known that in a dieting situation, if only a given amount of 11-T will be purchased, that perhaps using half the dose for twice as many weeks may give more total benefit.

Other than this, double dose will be more effective.

[quote]rnl wrote:
anyway, my question is, my wife an avid lifter who knows what she’s doing in the gym, is as well looking for that edge - is it totally out of the question?? thanks for your time[/quote]

Well, for some women taking androgens (anabolic steroids are the principal but not only androgens, e.g. DHEA also is not an anabolic steroid but is a weak androgen and some women are androgenized by it) at relatively low doses –

Compared to male usage: typically about 1/4 of what is a low dose for a male and 1/10th what is a moderately good dose for man – is within the question for them.

But in fact, even doses much lower than that can in some women irreversibly change the voice. A single 50 mg injection of Deca can do it; a very brief period, I don’t recall if it was one or two weeks but it was something in that area, of 5 mg/day Dianabol can do it. These are cases reported in the medical literature.

And of course we’ve all seen androgenized female bodybuilders who misguessed what they could tolerate – or sadly, they trusted their boyfriends or husbands who misguessed.

Since there is expected to be some, though slight, androgenic activity from 17-ADR (that is, the ingredient trademarked as “11-T”) I can’t really favor any use by women. It would be an unpredictable guessing game with potentially irreversible results.

[quote]NateOrade wrote:
I ordered 2 bottles.

So as far as training and nutrition goes:

If one is looking to put on muscle, just keep eating a lot and kicking ass in the gym while using this stuff? [/quote]
Pretty much, though some things are probably optimized a little differently:

  1. Fats, other than EFA’s and oleic acid (which might be called semi-essential) are probably better substituted with carbs or, if protein isn’t high, protein.

In contrast, without any hormonal supplementation it’s best not to drop fat intake to too low a percentage of total calories – the optimum is probably 30-40% then.

But with the assistance, each unnecessary gram of fat is roughly 2 grams of carbs, 2 grams of protein, or some mix of the two that has to be omitted; or it’s an extra gram of fat being added to the fat stores if the carbs or protein are being added anyway along with the fat.

  1. This isn’t different from when there’s no hormonal assistance, but the heaviest carb consumption is best from pre- and post-workout shakes and the meal or two following the workout, rather than getting the carbs equally across the clock or mostly at different times than that.

On non-workout days, daytime is probably best – again, same as usual on this one, but it’s a point not everyone follows.

  1. Times where gains are really likely are not the time for weird-ass exercises, but for the fundamental and old-reliable, both for the individual lifter and in general, exercises.

There’s a reason many professional coaches want you to for just the next two weeks or other brief time, do one arm dumbbell bench presses off a Swiss ball (or other weird exercise) and then quickly change to another, then yet another, etc etc etc.

The reason is that if you charged hundreds or thousands of dollars per hour, would your client be happy with being “only” 2 percent stronger after say four weeks of paying at this rate for you?

No! (Though in fact, for example a 500 lb competitive bench presser, who has been at this level for a few years, going to 550 in 20 weeks would be a superb training outcome.)

No, the client wants to see 10% (or some other large number) improvement every week! Now he is getting his money’s worth.

Of course this WILL NOT HAPPEN in a program sticking with the fundamentals and using them as the reference and assuming it’s an experienced athlete, but it sure as heck will happen when the first performance is totally compromised by how weird and unfamiliar the exercise is, the second is improved by some learning at it, and the third is starting to really get the hang of it.

Time for the next weird exercise so as to gain 10% every week, but somehow certainly not 520% by the end of the year and not “even” 52%!

So don’t fall into that trap regardless of how many training articles advise it. Bring up the major lifts. Assistance exercises addressing specific individual weak points are also appropriate, but not as the majority of sets done.

  1. It’s not a time for HIT-jedi style training, at least not if done the same way one is used to doing it. It could be acceptable if desired to do an unfamiliar intensifying modification, such as for example, not simply one set of each exercise.

But using for example Dante’s “DC-style” training where after doing as many reps as can be done with hardest work but still correct form, rest (for example) 10 real seconds and then do as many more as possible.

Then rest 15 real seconds and again do as many as possible, this time (if the contracted position is under tension) holding the final contraction for a good period of time such as 10-20 seconds or the maximum possible, and the final lowering as slowly as possible.

Not that it’s necessary to use this method, by no means, but it’s an example of how if you like HIT, it can be intensified into something appropriately useful if not doing this method already. If you are already totally acclimated to this specific method, then it would probably be better to find something else.

Of course, I don’t mean to suggest that training need or ought to be similar to HIT-jedi anyway. That is only IF one is most comfortable with that philosophy and inexperienced with anything else and fearful that going too different could flop.

  1. Training volume. Probably it profitably can be higher than usual, but not to a ridiculous level.

By the way, even if believing in low volume, if one accepts Arthur Jones as an authority, he had his greatest success as a trainer and wrote his Training Bulletins on the principle of 72 sets a week.

This still remains a valid approximate total amount, whether hormonally assisted or not, though if not it can be at the high end and if so, it can be a little low.

  1. If you have a long term cyclical training plan, of course the best time would be during those weeks where gains can most reasonably be expected.

For example, when I was using a Scott Warman-type powerlifting program – week 1 starts with weights slightly higher than could be and were done last cycle for say 9 reps, the final week is set to be a weight slightly higher than could be and was done for a triple last cycle, and the intermediate weeks have equally-spaced weight increases that should yield drops of exactly 1 rep each week thus terminating in the final-week new-PR triples – my best chance of muscle gain was in the 5-6 rep range, so I targeted androgen use for then. Others might personally do better at different times or with different programs. This is just an example.

But the point is, use at what is the most likely time for success within the training program, which is not every single week – for a more advanced lifter, if it seems that all weeks are equally likely then the training program ought to be rethunk. (For a more novice lifter, it’s okay to have each gain about equally likely for gains.)