[quote]BADASS MENTALITY wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
BADASS MENTALITY wrote:
WAY too much for this! Biotest is out of their minds with this one. $$$ is better spent on a good PT pushing me to my limit than some miracle supp.
[/quote]
With a BADASS MENTALITY you shouldn’t need to pay someone else to push you to the limit, thereby freeing up that cash for other things like this supplement.
Is 11-T okay to stack with other Biotest products like Alpha Male and Rhodiola Rosea?
So is there a timeframe we should wait after putting this stuff on before going to the gym?
[quote]barbellman wrote:
Is 11-T okay to stack with other Biotest products like Alpha Male and Rhodiola Rosea?[/quote]
lol it better be as thats what I just ordered 
I’m not digging the supplement, not right now, anyway. I’ll be waiting on others’ results before I ante up that kind of cash.
I’m hoping that the people that are snatching it up are in the elite range, as it looks like this is who the target group is.
Post results with before/after stats, along with strength/endurance gains.
Thanks.
So it looks like Bill can’t actually comment on the use of 11-T with steroids because he can’t gain with them anymore. I have a question relating to the use of 11-T and steroid use, specifically the PCT.
My question is how will 11-T play its role when used as a cortisol control supplement during the PCT when cortisol is rebounding? Will it be powerful enough to control the massive cortisol uproar, allowing one to keep most, if not all of their gains made during a cycle?
[quote]The Mage wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Is Max Strength still available? I don’t think I have seen it in the store for a while. Maybe sold off site?
And just wanted to double check. 4k IU of Vitamin D? Don’t think I have ever taken that much.[/quote]
Yes, 4000, as a value suitable for most people. Those with kidney disease should not take such a dose though, or those with might be called general health problems would do well to have periodic kidney function and serum calcium tests when using larger amounts, and not do so if any problem results. But that is rare, certainly not the norm.
4000 really is not that large, as a moderate time in reasonably strong sun generates more than that, assuming substantial skin area is exposed. In other words, it’s a natural amount that if one doesn’t get sun to that extent, one isn’t going to produce biologically nor find it in food, so supplementation is needed.
And unless there’s an unusual health reason why an individual would find that too much for their individual case, it’s a generally suitable dose.
It’s even been seriously suggested that a major reason why people in hospitals tend to be sickly, far above and beyond what was there reason for admission, is that they produce and get, typically, zero Vitamin D while in the hospital. And among other values, Vitamin D enhances the immune system while lack of it depresses it.
(Other values include that risk of cardiovascular disease is doubled in individuals with low serum Vitamin D, improved insulin sensitivity, improved blood pressure, and improved resistance to cancer. And resistance to osteoporosis, if relevant. And improved fat loss too.)
Because of recent research showing the benefits, now supplement products are showing up at doses that make does such as 4000 IU convenient, such as 2000 IU per capsule. For that matter, Life Extension Foundation sells it at 5000 IU per capsule.
The 400 IU RDA value was obtained by the standard of, What is the minimum neded to avoid rickets? Not, what is the optimal amount for all these other reasons. (In fact, these other reasons weren’t known years ago, except for effect on calcium absorption.)
[quote]The Mage wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Principally other Biotest products to stack with it for cutting cycles would be, main item, HOT-ROX. If, as most people can, one can tolerate the yohimbine in the Extreme then go with that. If not, then the Maximum Strength.
On the Maximum Strength: Ah, my bad, you are right! I have a personal stock of Maximum Strength myself and vary the use (that vs Extreme) according to whether I want to use a Spike Shooter or not, as I don’t want to double up on yohimbine. But you’re right, it’s not in the store anymore and I don’t know if it’s sold off site. Oops!
The reason, I would think, is back when I know both were being sold, customer preference was drastically tilted towards the Extreme. I really don’t know the exact ratio but it seemed like it was maybe even 10 to 1 favoring the Extreme.
[quote]1BADMF wrote:
Bill,
Are the low androgenic properties likely to affect:
hair loss
increased aggression
acne
When taking other “products”, if you will, I was one of those guys who always had pronounced negative side effects from even small doses, while some of my friends could take huge doses and get nothing.
But those products were supposed to be androgenic, where this product is not a pro-hormone, if I read it correctly. I’m a little confused, to be honest.
Thanks in advance.[/quote]
Well, not being a prohormone doesn’t guarantee zero androgenic effect, and we don’t expect zero in this case – none has been shown, but that point hasn’t been studied either despite being present in the body in high levels so one would hope.
But in vain, that medical science would have studied it – though a closely related compound, the 17-methyl derivative, has been studied for androgenic effect and was very low.
Acne can be triggered by various hormonal changes, not just androgenic, and so with that also being a potential factor, there’s no way to guarantee zero effect there. It seems possible it may aggravate acne in some individuals.
On the hair loss, it won’t be worse than the prohormones but might not be better. The vast majority should have no issue, but for someone as readily running into problems with that as has been the case for you, at this point that can’t be ruled out.
[quote]barbellman wrote:
Is 11-T okay to stack with other Biotest products like Alpha Male and Rhodiola Rosea?[/quote]
Yes, though there’s probably no point to taking Alpha Male at the same time as the 11-T.
[quote]BeforeIforget wrote:
So is there a timeframe we should wait after putting this stuff on before going to the gym? [/quote]
Not really, it’s a matter of minutes at most before being ready to get dressed, and from that point on, sweating doesn’t matter.
If showering is desired well prior to the next application, then simply running the water (no soap to applied areas) and blotting such areas dry (not rubbing) will avoid significant losses. That’s good enough to get sweat off.
Well, I’ve never believed in cortisol rebound post-cycle anyway.
It is possible that some fail to reduce training volume post-cycle to match their no-longer-enhanced capacity for work.
There is no point in high volume in the first “off” week. There is no point in hypertrophy-style training either.
It is also possible that some take the inevitable loss of muscle glycogen and glycogen-associated water as being catabolic muscle loss, and blame cortisol for it.
Where 11-T could be useful post-cycle is that I expect that if applied only in the morning, and removed with thorough soaping and vigorous towelling in the evening, that it would give some support while not being significantly inhibitory, as the night hours are much more important to inhibition than the daytime hours are.
Wait. So Biotest is releasing 11-T but they won’t release Surge Workout Fuel because they think it’s too expensive?
-dizzle
hey Bill,
My main questions are those that have been asked already in the thread but not really responded to
basically, the physical effects of 11-T
(1) what is the primary purpose? to gain muscle or strength, or to reduce fat gain during a gaining phase? I understand the cortisol but just want to know what you should be shooting for here exactly
(2) will this be effective during a low-carb cutting phase to retain muscle and lose fat more quickly? When is use of 11-T most effective?
(3) How reliably will one keep gains from the cycle (whether it be a cutting or gaining cycle)?
(4) how long should one wait between cycles? and how long will it work?
I’m looking to buying a the 2-pack but want to be clear on this first!
[quote]BADASS MENTALITY wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
BADASS MENTALITY wrote:
WAY too much for this! Biotest is out of their minds with this one. $$$ is better spent on a good PT pushing me to my limit than some miracle supp.
must not be too much seeing as several people jumped at it right away.
Most spend which they do not have, son. And how come you have a damn answer for everything on here?! WTF are you, son?! Ya noob. But hey, sometimes I’m so fucking bright, my father calls me son.
[/quote]
English mother fucker, you speak it?
[quote]A-Dizz wrote:
Wait. So Biotest is releasing 11-T but they won’t release Surge Workout Fuel because they think it’s too expensive?
-dizzle[/quote]
LOL good point.
[quote]actionjeff wrote:
hey Bill,
My main questions are those that have been asked already in the thread but not really responded to
basically, the physical effects of 11-T
(1) what is the primary purpose? to gain muscle or strength, or to reduce fat gain during a gaining phase? I understand the cortisol
(2) will this be effective during a low-carb cutting phase to retain muscle and lose fat more quickly? When is use of 11-T most effective?
(3) Will one keep gains from the cycle (whether it be a cutting or gaining cycle)?
(4) how long should one wait between cycles? assuming using just once a day after a shower
I’m looking to buying a the 2-pack but want to be clear on this first!
[/quote]
+1
I know I asked earlier, and estimations of this type are exceptionally difficult, but . . .
will there be enough for me to wait 'til friday to order my two-pack?
[quote]actionjeff wrote:
hey Bill,
My main questions are those that have been asked already in the thread but not really responded to
basically, the physical effects of 11-T
(1) what is the primary purpose? to gain muscle or strength, or to reduce fat gain during a gaining phase? I understand the cortisol [/quote]
For most, losing fat is easy (relatively speaking) enough and does not require this nor, if other aspects of dieting and exercise are inadequate, is 11-T the fix for that.
On the other hand, it can be a completely different story at quite low bodyfat levels and striving to get leaner yet, but having experienced running into roadblocks doing that because a point has been reached where the body is fighting it.
Here, 11-T could make a lot more sense than in the situation of the guy who is 12% or 20$ bf or what have you.
So generally I would say, choosing between the two options, size and strength “instead” of help with bodyfat but there are both benefits.
I’m not confident at all that if so much is eaten during a gaining phase that without 11-T there would be rapid fat gain, that 11-T could possibly stop that. There is an inhibition of lipogenesis but, thermodynamics isn’t just a good idea, it’s the law.
Too much food energy, beyond that which is burned and beyond that used to build muscle or to fill the quite-limited-potential glycogen stores, literally has nowhere to go except into fat. So I think that is unstoppable.
That really depends on what the individual finds harder. For example, if it’s gotten to where size and strength gains are seeming about impossible, then getting a significant gain there can be a big thing.
But if one is at a point where gains are or should be coming easily anyway, then what’s the value in some enhancement of that? Not much because it was on its way anyway, and the only thing being accomplished is arriving at it a little sooner.
And by the way, this question of saying there are often situations where consistent good gains are getting about or actually impossible, I know there are countless professional trainers that, for example, would scoff at an experienced lifter, say 30 years old, claiming that 5 lb per year was all that he could expect.
But I ask you, if said professional trainer is say 45 years old, has he himself packed on an additional 75 lb of muscle in the 15 years since he was 30?
No he has not, unless either he was a novice at that age or drugs are to be thanked. Quite likely he himself, if he was an accomplished lifter at age 30 and drugs or change in drugs aren’t involved, may have gained only 10 or 20 pounds in that period, thus an average of only 1 or 2 lb a year.
If he’s had clients of 15 years time who were already advanced and experienced lifters when he started with them, has a single one of them achieved a yet-further 75 pound LBM gain under his tutelage unless drugs are to thank?
Of course they won’t tell you they can’t consistently obtain “even” 5 lb per year average for experienced clients year in year out over such a long term, but it’s so.
I can’t tell you how many guys I’ve met who claim to make great gains all the time but are basically the same size they were 10 years ago – this being guys who were already quite well developed, for them, and experienced back then. (Obviously, it would be sad if a novice gained little in 10 years, that would be different.)
So yeah, that can be a real challenge. And overcoming that can be a big deal. So if that’s the case, then achieving this is “more effective” than aiding ordinary fat loss.
On the other hand, getting into the most cut, most ripped, or most shredded condition of one’s life may well for the individual be a bigger deal than adding some muscle that was coming anyway, just doing it sooner rather than a little later in the natural course of events.
If gains include satellite cells being triggered to fuse into existing muscle fibers, this would be a permanent benefit, as those fibers now permanently have more nuclei and can therefore synthesize more protein. (Or more accurately, more mRNA and thus more protein.)
If that doesn’t occur but “only” an increase in contractile protein, then if and only if this is above and beyond what the body could achieve in its normal hormonal environment, it will be lost with time. If it is simply being achieved early but the homeostasis point has not yet been reached, it need not be lost.
If there is weight increase resulting from increased glycogen and glycogen-associated water in the muscles, that will be promptly lost.
I’d recommend doing a salivary T test from time to time, sample being taken on arising and before application. If natural T is not being affected, as would likely be the case, then there is no real need, though there may be cost consideration as a bottle will last only 6 weeks this way, to go off of it.
actionjeff, either I confused myself or you corrected your post (which is cool) to make the question a general one of time between cycles. Whereas my reply was tailored to what I thought was asked: how long between if application was only in the morning.
If 2x/day, then at least 2 weeks. This gives enough time with normal LH levels that any amount of cycles will still leave testicular atrophy a non-issue.
[quote]A-Dizz wrote:
Wait. So Biotest is releasing 11-T but they won’t release Surge Workout Fuel because they think it’s too expensive?
-dizzle[/quote]
The Fuel will cometh.