Brant_Drake’s and JMajor’s advice is spot on. The template they gave you is good.
The advantage of doing a high number of set with low reps is that you can use heavier weight.
Brant_Drake: my points in that thread were just as valid then as they are now.
There is no sense in completely avoiding entire muscle groups.
Although perhaps you’d like to show us a few photographs of how developed you’ve gotten from training this way. Maybe then I should take my advice from you.
I thought we had gotten past all of the major blocks that are displayed in the thinking in this thread.
Body part splits dont work? No, bad programming in body part splits doesnt work. You know that guy Charles Poliquin? Yeah, he uses body part splits. I guess he doesnt know what hes talking about since some 18 year old with a basic knowledge of 3 Waterbury articles (surprisingly, all of which are “the most powerful muscle building program ever”) says that body part splits do not work.
Isolation movements should be completely neglected? Ok, you go ahead and do nothing but rows and chins for the next year and see how much your arms grow. Ill save you the trouble, the answer is VERY LITTLE. If you are doing the big compounds correctly, you will be doing the majority of the work with your big movers (back, chest, etc.). I got fooled into thinking the way a lot of you guys do for about a year. I ended up adding size to my back and chest and…surprise…not to my arms.
One of you suggested 24-25 total reps being great for size/mass. Would you like to elaborate on that without using the words “Chad” and “Waterbury” please?
Someone posted a routine that contained 3 very neurally draining exercises performed 4 times a week. They then suggested adding a 4th very neurally draining exercise to each workout.
I dont see how people cant grasp this…The big compounds are important and they give you the most bang for your neurological buck, but that doesnt mean that if 1 or 2 per workout is good, then 4 or 5 must be better and if performing then with high intensity twice a week is good, then 4 times must be better. If it is good to limit isolation work in a program, then it must be better to eliminate it entirely. I would not be surprised if this guy used this program, he would wind up so wiped out at the end of 3 weeks that he would need 2 weeks off. You cant buy 5 $40,000 cars with $100,000.
I am making the assumption that the OP is a beginner and is therefor likely to be lacking in neural efficiency. Beginners tend to need more volume to see results as they are not able to push themselves as far as more advanced trainees. That being said, they will not be as exhausted after 4 sets of squats or presses as an intermediate trainee, so whats the danger in “wasting energy” on such “useless” exercises that might just make training a little more interesting and help to develop muscle groups that arent optimally stimulated by the big compounds?
Even the Westside Barbell guys do direct bicep work, even though a great number of them are rowing or chinning 4 times a week. I guess they are wasting their time and energy. You will not see an individual who has added any significant amount of muscle mass to their biceps without ever performing direct bicep work. Period.
People on this site wear their disdain for isolation exercises on their sleeves like its some sort of fucking badge of honor.
“Oh yeah, well, I dont ever do curls. EVER.”
Not doing curls doesnt make you more hardcore, it makes you someone who doesnt do curls because they are dumb enough to think that rows will give you big biceps.
Im sure if any of them had a thought about training that wasnt first submitted by someone else for review by the editors of this site, they might come to a different conclusion.
[quote]fightingtiger wrote:
I thought we had gotten past all of the major blocks that are displayed in the thinking in this thread.
Body part splits dont work? No, bad programming in body part splits doesnt work. You know that guy Charles Poliquin? Yeah, he uses body part splits. I guess he doesnt know what hes talking about since some 18 year old with a basic knowledge of 3 Waterbury articles (surprisingly, all of which are “the most powerful muscle building program ever”) says that body part splits do not work.
Isolation movements should be completely neglected? Ok, you go ahead and do nothing but rows and chins for the next year and see how much your arms grow. Ill save you the trouble, the answer is VERY LITTLE. If you are doing the big compounds correctly, you will be doing the majority of the work with your big movers (back, chest, etc.). I got fooled into thinking the way a lot of you guys do for about a year. I ended up adding size to my back and chest and…surprise…not to my arms.
One of you suggested 24-25 total reps being great for size/mass. Would you like to elaborate on that without using the words “Chad” and “Waterbury” please?
Someone posted a routine that contained 3 very neurally draining exercises performed 4 times a week. They then suggested adding a 4th very neurally draining exercise to each workout.
I dont see how people cant grasp this…The big compounds are important and they give you the most bang for your neurological buck, but that doesnt mean that if 1 or 2 per workout is good, then 4 or 5 must be better and if performing then with high intensity twice a week is good, then 4 times must be better. If it is good to limit isolation work in a program, then it must be better to eliminate it entirely. I would not be surprised if this guy used this program, he would wind up so wiped out at the end of 3 weeks that he would need 2 weeks off. You cant buy 5 $40,000 cars with $100,000.
I am making the assumption that the OP is a beginner and is therefor likely to be lacking in neural efficiency. Beginners tend to need more volume to see results as they are not able to push themselves as far as more advanced trainees. That being said, they will not be as exhausted after 4 sets of squats or presses as an intermediate trainee, so whats the danger in “wasting energy” on such “useless” exercises that might just make training a little more interesting and help to develop muscle groups that arent optimally stimulated by the big compounds?
Even the Westside Barbell guys do direct bicep work, even though a great number of them are rowing or chinning 4 times a week. I guess they are wasting their time and energy. You will not see an individual who has added any significant amount of muscle mass to their biceps without ever performing direct bicep work. Period.
People on this site wear their disdain for isolation exercises on their sleeves like its some sort of fucking badge of honor.
“Oh yeah, well, I dont ever do curls. EVER.”
Not doing curls doesnt make you more hardcore, it makes you someone who doesnt do curls because they are dumb enough to think that rows will give you big biceps.
Im sure if any of them had a thought about training that wasnt first submitted by someone else for review by the editors of this site, they might come to a different conclusion.[/quote]
Can you please post your version of a 4 day routine to help get a skinny guy who is intermediate and wants to take his routine to the next level. Thank you.
[quote]fightingtiger wrote:
a bunch of stuff that is right [/quote]
The anger is strong in this one haha.
Search for the article “How to design a damn good program” parts 1 and 2.
If you are skinny AND intermediate, I would imagine you are not eating enough.
[quote]fightingtiger wrote:
Good points.[/quote]
FT, I understand and agree with what you’re saying. I read through your posts and you seem like an intelligent person. However, I think you extrapolated the advice given in this thread to something larger. All that happened was a beginner asked for a 4 day program. One was provided taking into account several factors.
1.) Start him out with big movements to teach his body to do them correctly (which will help him throughout his lifting career,) and to help him understand the importance of centering a program around them, a concept he was not familiar with.
2.) We all know about newbie gains, and a basic program like this allows for great results, especially when starting out. No one said he had to keep doing that forever.
3.) No one said body part splits don’t work. Remember this is for a beginner who needs a starting point! If you were training someone who was a very beginner, what would you recommend? Maybe an upper/lower split, but I doubt a 5 day split.
4,) As far as the exercise choice, you first say they are CNS draining, then say newbies lack neural efficiency. Yes, the exercises are tough, but for good reason. Remember that he has to learn to push himself, and develop that neural efficiency. So in that sense, CNS draining exercises seem like the way to go.
4.) About the volume for newbies thing, thats kind of a limited perspective, don’t you agree? Newbies need to go lift and push themselves, just like everyone else. Substituting volume for that is shortchanging them.
5.) I understand what you’ve done yourself, but you’ve been lifting for a while and have already familiarized yourself with beginner concepts. If you asked for a program, this particular one would not be recommended to you!
So to sum it up, this program is kept simple to allow him to develop basic lifting skills, while taking advantage of newbie gains, and develop good habits and lifting knowledge so that he can move on to the intermediate level. No one is attacking isolation exercises, but rather trying to provide the OP with what would be best for him (not everyone on the board) at this particular time (not forever.) That’s it.
And yes, I do curls.
To the original poster, if you are still skinny your problem is nutrition, not necessarily training.
If I were going to recommend a basic routine to someone relatively new to weight training, it certainly wouldn’t be a powerlifting program for so many reasons that have probably been covered before.
A traditional workout regimen for someone looking to get bigger is something like: “pull/push/legs/shoulders”
Broken down into muscle groups, this means: back/biceps, chest/triceps, thighs/calves, shoulders/traps.
4 days each week, 3 exercises per bodypart, 3-4 sets per exercise, focus on your basic movements.
I’m not a beginner. I have been working out 3-4 years with a similar routine that I posted and did see results. I’m not a tank or anything , but I can Bench 200lbs 6reps on my own , and can curl an 100lbs barbell 4-6 reps.
I’m looking to take my fitness level to the next level , so I want to change my routine. I don’t want to settle for being an average looking guy at the gym , I want to be big.
My nutrition at the moment is really good. I eat every 3 hours , and am gaining weight(very slowly).
[quote]handthatfeeds wrote:
Can you please post your version of a 4 day routine to help get a skinny guy who is intermediate and wants to take his routine to the next level. Thank you.[/quote]
[quote]scottiscool wrote:
fightingtiger wrote:
a bunch of stuff that is right
The anger is strong in this one haha. [/quote]
Its been a long two weeks. Sorry if that pissed anyone off, but Im not much for being nice lately, haha.
[quote]Brant_Drake wrote:
fightingtiger wrote:
Good points.
FT, I understand and agree with what you’re saying. I read through your posts and you seem like an intelligent person. However, I think you extrapolated the advice given in this thread to something larger. All that happened was a beginner asked for a 4 day program. One was provided taking into account several factors.
1.) Start him out with big movements to teach his body to do them correctly (which will help him throughout his lifting career,) and to help him understand the importance of centering a program around them, a concept he was not familiar with.
2.) We all know about newbie gains, and a basic program like this allows for great results, especially when starting out. No one said he had to keep doing that forever.
3.) No one said body part splits don’t work. Remember this is for a beginner who needs a starting point! If you were training someone who was a very beginner, what would you recommend? Maybe an upper/lower split, but I doubt a 5 day split.
4,) As far as the exercise choice, you first say they are CNS draining, then say newbies lack neural efficiency. Yes, the exercises are tough, but for good reason. Remember that he has to learn to push himself, and develop that neural efficiency. So in that sense, CNS draining exercises seem like the way to go.
4.) About the volume for newbies thing, thats kind of a limited perspective, don’t you agree? Newbies need to go lift and push themselves, just like everyone else. Substituting volume for that is shortchanging them.
5.) I understand what you’ve done yourself, but you’ve been lifting for a while and have already familiarized yourself with beginner concepts. If you asked for a program, this particular one would not be recommended to you!
So to sum it up, this program is kept simple to allow him to develop basic lifting skills, while taking advantage of newbie gains, and develop good habits and lifting knowledge so that he can move on to the intermediate level. No one is attacking isolation exercises, but rather trying to provide the OP with what would be best for him (not everyone on the board) at this particular time (not forever.) That’s it.
And yes, I do curls.
[/quote]
1.) I was never saying dont do the big lifts. They are key for anybody looking to gain muscle mass. The bulk of the program should be money movements, but building a routine entirely around the basic movements (push, pull, squat, and deadlift) is overkill.
2.) If he is a newbie, and therefore prone to make greater gains…then why would you have him ignore entire muscle groups and not take FULL advantage of his response to the new stimulus (ie weight training).
3.) Actually, someone did say bodypart splits dont work:
[quote]Blue9steel wrote:
a bodypart split is somewhat less than optimal. Overall volume should be in the neighborhood of 16-20 exercises per week normally, with either a total body program or movement split.
[/quote]
What I would do would depend on the trainee and their goals. New trainees tend to experience debilitating soreness after a mildly difficult leg workout, so having them squat twice a week and deadlift twice a week would not be a good way to keep them motivated in the gym! I would likely gravitate towards an upper/lower split. Once again though, it would depend.
4.) Newbies learn to push themselves through practicing the lifts and gaining efficiency. They require more volume in order to elicit the growth response as they are not able to train with a high enough intensity (once again, due to the lack of neurological adaptation to weight training). Why waste time having them simply learn the lifts and build efficiency when you could do that and also elicit a growth response through training with a higher volume.
5.) [quote]Brant_Drake wrote:
Your energy is better spent on big compound exercises.
[/quote]
This is a blanket statement that encourages the OP to completely avoid all isolation movements as they are a waste of time. Curls are not a waste of time, lying swiss ball cable triceps extensions are a waste of time. Hardly what I would call a good habit to continue on into your lifting career with. I dont think I have ever encountered a trainee who was so new that they werent advanced enough for curls.
I would advice newbies against majoring in the minors, but focusing only on big movements leaves a good portion of the body out of the equation, which leaves the trainee to play catch up later on in their weight lifting career.
There is a general attitude on this board that leans towards the ideas I have attacked in this thread for trainees of all experience levels. There is also a gross tendency to ignore the virtues of experience and follow a single authors advice exclusively and worry about the science rather than the results. Hell, just today, Charles Poliquin, one of the foremost strength coaches in the world today, disagreed with something Waterbury stated in an article, and we have hoards of 160 lb teenagers now calling Poliquin a “complete idiot” and a “cranky old man”.
Does anyone else not see the absurdity? There are thousands of studies that might disagree with the things Dante Trudell writes about, but his methodology has produced some of the biggest and strongest in the game today. If Dante wrote for T-Nation, there would be 1,000 teenagers telling him that he was wrong and that what he does doesnt work. People used to start arguments with Professor X on a weekly basis about how outdated and ineffective the training methods that got him up to the 240+ lbs of natural
muscle that he was.
This is a THINK TANK, not a cult. Accept what is useful, reject what is not. All of the studies and paper in the world cannot hold a candle to results.
The proof is in the pudding.
[quote]fightingtiger wrote:
I thought we had gotten past all of the major blocks that are displayed in the thinking in this thread.
Body part splits dont work? No, bad programming in body part splits doesnt work. You know that guy Charles Poliquin? Yeah, he uses body part splits. I guess he doesnt know what hes talking about since some 18 year old with a basic knowledge of 3 Waterbury articles (surprisingly, all of which are “the most powerful muscle building program ever”) says that body part splits do not work.
Isolation movements should be completely neglected? Ok, you go ahead and do nothing but rows and chins for the next year and see how much your arms grow. Ill save you the trouble, the answer is VERY LITTLE. If you are doing the big compounds correctly, you will be doing the majority of the work with your big movers (back, chest, etc.). I got fooled into thinking the way a lot of you guys do for about a year. I ended up adding size to my back and chest and…surprise…not to my arms.
One of you suggested 24-25 total reps being great for size/mass. Would you like to elaborate on that without using the words “Chad” and “Waterbury” please?
Someone posted a routine that contained 3 very neurally draining exercises performed 4 times a week. They then suggested adding a 4th very neurally draining exercise to each workout.
I dont see how people cant grasp this…The big compounds are important and they give you the most bang for your neurological buck, but that doesnt mean that if 1 or 2 per workout is good, then 4 or 5 must be better and if performing then with high intensity twice a week is good, then 4 times must be better. If it is good to limit isolation work in a program, then it must be better to eliminate it entirely. I would not be surprised if this guy used this program, he would wind up so wiped out at the end of 3 weeks that he would need 2 weeks off. You cant buy 5 $40,000 cars with $100,000.
I am making the assumption that the OP is a beginner and is therefor likely to be lacking in neural efficiency. Beginners tend to need more volume to see results as they are not able to push themselves as far as more advanced trainees. That being said, they will not be as exhausted after 4 sets of squats or presses as an intermediate trainee, so whats the danger in “wasting energy” on such “useless” exercises that might just make training a little more interesting and help to develop muscle groups that arent optimally stimulated by the big compounds?
Even the Westside Barbell guys do direct bicep work, even though a great number of them are rowing or chinning 4 times a week. I guess they are wasting their time and energy. You will not see an individual who has added any significant amount of muscle mass to their biceps without ever performing direct bicep work. Period.
People on this site wear their disdain for isolation exercises on their sleeves like its some sort of fucking badge of honor.
“Oh yeah, well, I dont ever do curls. EVER.”
Not doing curls doesnt make you more hardcore, it makes you someone who doesnt do curls because they are dumb enough to think that rows will give you big biceps.
Im sure if any of them had a thought about training that wasnt first submitted by someone else for review by the editors of this site, they might come to a different conclusion.[/quote]
gonna have to say i pretty much wholeheartedly agree with this post ppl have a tendency to hear something and then immediately and incorrectly take it to an extreme
handthatfeeds: What puts someone in the category of a beginner is not how long they’ve had a gym membership, or how long they’ve been aware of fitness.
It is how much progress they’ve actually made
And I’m not trying to offend you, but the fact is those numbers indicate two things to me:
- You aren’t very developed, because those numbers are simply not impressive to your average person who has been training a little while.
- You aren’t very knowledgable as far as balanced and intelligent training goes, because the only feats of strength you listed were for the bench press and bicep curl. If you don’t know why this is going to stereotype you as someone ignorant about lifting, then you are a beginner simply for a lack of that understanding. haha
I strongly suggest you go back to the basics here. There is no need to take your fitness “to the next level” beyond just learning the most basic stuff at this point.
Ok, there is a lot of good stuff in this thread but their is also in my opinion some unnecessary stuff too.
So you’re a beginner, everyone is at one point (infact some people never get out of this stage because their is so much bullshit training material out there). You need somewhere to learn and start a simplistic and most effective program for where you are at right now.
And here it is: Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos
Read read read.
All you need right now is gut busting muscle grinding sets with heavy weights three times a week until you reach an intermediate level, I don’t know maybe something like a 400sq, 300bp, 500dl. By that time you’ll have more of a need to stretch your training out over four days with less frequency to recover from heavier loads on your body.
Another note: not doing any direct arm work is ok if you do not want to have optimal arm strength and size. If you care about optimal arm strength and size, do direct arm work.
Don’t forget to EAT. Shoot for a pound gain per week which should consist of roughly 2/3’s lean body mass.
This will get you big and strong and hopefully keep you relatively injury free.
Good luck!
Again, why would you provide a program like that?
The OP is not a powerlifter, or a football player… he simply wants to get bigger. So why not recommend a basic bodybuilding program?
“I want to build bigger muscles, how should I go about this?”
“Well I recommend you dedicate yourself to several years of this basketball agility training! Once you reach an intermediate level in basketball, you’ll be ready to start doing things like bodybuilding!!”
Sound ridiculous? Of course it would.
So stop trying to get everyone to powerlift for fucks sake. Do you honestly believe this will get them to their desired goals the fastest?
Have you realized you are wrong yet?
come on now people.
How does this workout sound?
Day 1
Bench Press 5x5
Incline dumbbell bench press 2 sets (15-20 reps)
Dumbbell rows 3 sets (8-12 reps) Super set
Rear delt flyes 3 sets (8-12 reps) Super set
Dumbbell shrugs 3 sets (8-15 reps)
Barbell Curls - 4 sets (8-15 reps)
Day 2
Barbell reverse lunge 3 sets (8-12 reps)
45 degree hyperextensions 3 sets (8-12 reps)
Weighted swiss ball crunches 4 sets (10-15 reps)
Day 3
Incline dumbbell bench press 3 sets (4-6 reps)
Lat pulldowns 3 sets (8-12 reps) Super set
Seated dumbbell power cleans 3 sets (8-12 reps) Super set
Dumbbell lateral raises 4 sets (8-12 reps)
Barbell shrugs 3 sets (8-10 reps) Superset
Dumbbell curls 3 sets (8-10 reps) Superset
Plate pinch grip 3 sets (3 reps)
Day 4
Squats 5x5
Walking lunges 3 sets (6-12 reps)
Romanian deadlifts 3 sets (8-12 reps)
Ground based abdominal circuit 3 sets (10-20 reps per exercise).
The first thing before anyone should have commented on how the routine was constructed was to get information on what your goals are. How long have you been training? What is your nutrition like? Do you have problems with recovery? Are you assisted or drug free athlete?
A properly constructed training program is one that makes you better at performing tasks outside the gym. It has to address your weaknesses, progressively improve performance while keeping you healthy.
Start here.
[quote]chasing2400 wrote:
The first thing before anyone should have commented on how the routine was constructed was to get information on what your goals are. How long have you been training? What is your nutrition like? Do you have problems with recovery? Are you assisted or drug free athlete?
A properly constructed training program is one that makes you better at performing tasks outside the gym. It has to address your weaknesses, progressively improve performance while keeping you healthy.
Start here. [/quote]
- My goals are to get bigger and add mass through out my body
- I have been training 3-4 years
- My nutrition is very good , I’m trying to eat every 3 hours , lots of protein and cals
- I usually recover well if I do the exercise once a week on the same day(ex. benching every Monday ect…).
- I use creatine (Purple-k) but after my bottle is done i’m looking to use Creatine Monohydrate.
- If I had to choose a weakness on my body it would be legs.
I’m 22 years old. 6’3 180lbs with little body fat(i’v never calculated my body fat% , but I have no gut and no noticable fat anywhere), if that helps.
[quote]handthatfeeds wrote:
How does this workout sound?
Day 1
Bench Press 5x5
Incline dumbbell bench press 2 sets (15-20 reps)
Dumbbell rows 3 sets (8-12 reps) Super set
Rear delt flyes 3 sets (8-12 reps) Super set
Dumbbell shrugs 3 sets (8-15 reps)
Barbell Curls - 4 sets (8-15 reps)
Day 2
Barbell reverse lunge 3 sets (8-12 reps)
45 degree hyperextensions 3 sets (8-12 reps)
Weighted swiss ball crunches 4 sets (10-15 reps)
Day 3
Incline dumbbell bench press 3 sets (4-6 reps)
Lat pulldowns 3 sets (8-12 reps) Super set
Seated dumbbell power cleans 3 sets (8-12 reps) Super set
Dumbbell lateral raises 4 sets (8-12 reps)
Barbell shrugs 3 sets (8-10 reps) Superset
Dumbbell curls 3 sets (8-10 reps) Superset
Plate pinch grip 3 sets (3 reps)
Day 4
Squats 5x5
Walking lunges 3 sets (6-12 reps)
Romanian deadlifts 3 sets (8-12 reps)
Ground based abdominal circuit 3 sets (10-20 reps per exercise).[/quote]
I dont like it much. Iv got some time, so Ill write one up for you.
-
Horizontal Push/Pull
a1. Incline Bench Press- 5x5
a2. Barbell Row- 5x5
b1. Close Grip Bench Press- 4x8
b2. Dumbell Row- 4x8
c. Preacher Curl- 3x12 -
Quad-Dominant Lower Body
a. Barbell Squat- 5x5
b. Split Squat- 4x8
c. Pull-through- 3x12
d. Standing Calf Raise- 3x15
e. Abs (your choice) -
Vertical Push/Pull
a1. Push Press- 5x5
a2. Lat Pulldown- 5x5
b1. Seated Dumbell Press- 4x8
b2. Weighted Close Grip Supinated Chins- 4x8
c. Lateral Raise- 3x12 -
Hip-Dominant Lower Body
a. Snatch-Grip Deadlift- 5x5
b. Barbell Step-up- 4x8
c. Hyperextension- 3x12
d. Seated Calf Raise- 3x15
e. Abs (your choice)
This covers all of your major planes of movement and allows you to focus on the main compound lifts without ignoring any muscle groups. It also uses several of the more popular set/rep ranges for hypertrophy and strength emphasis (5x5, 4x8, 3x12). I didnt include any direct triceps work beyond the close grip bench press because after all of the pushing you will be doing, your triceps should be fried. I have found that, unlike biceps, triceps CAN be adequately stimulated through the large compounds and do not need to be isolated as often. If you are pressing correctly, your triceps will be heavily involved. If you are pulling, your biceps should not heavily involved, hence the isolation. I avoided direct forearm work because it would have a negative impact on your ability to go heavy on deadlifts, rows, and chins. For most people, simply holding on to heavy weights will lead to an increase in forearm strength and size. The leg days should be deceptively difficult. Let me know if you can managed to go heavy on snatch-grip deads and step-ups and not feel fairly wiped out afterwards. I STRONGLY suggest you go pick up a copy of “The New Rules of Lifting” by Lou Schuler and Alwyn Cosgrove. This book is a good place for you to start as long as you remember not to take anything you read as dogma. Alwyn doesnt use direct arm work in a lot of his programs, but his intended audience is not comprised of bodybuilders, but people who simply want to be stronger and gain some muscle.