Someone Is Full Of It...

Training Powerlifting
101

Listen if you honestly believe that an average guy when working with a trainer can’t bench 135lbs then I think you might be a martian. I’m by no way a gifted athlete and I’ve seen PLENTY of average guys in the gym for their first time week or month. The ones that can’t increase there bench to 1 plate are 90% of the time bullshitters.

Their genetic flaw is their mental capacity to bullshit, not muscular. Of course there will be one or two that honestly can’t do it(just for the sake of argument), but 2 out of 50 is NOT AVERAGE.

Hanley America is huge, different states prioritize different sports. Certain areas prioritize strength as athletecism for sports others speed. I’m only saying this because I have not seen a consistent age across the states that many kids start lifting weights. Plus you have to remember tons of kids don’t even care about weights.

Some whose fathers are maniacs will have them lifting at 10, others 14 then some will wait til college. Of the general population the primary athletes that lift are football players. This is important because football starts as young as 5 here. If you know you love football and want to excel naturally your going to want to lift weights at some point. Of course their training if unsupervised is probably bullshit when you are 7,8,9 but as they get older it gets better.

When benching 300 it may be poor form but you at least know that alot of it is upperbody strength, with squatting however form used to be horse shit for high school even college athletes. Nowadays with better trainers and the internet I am seeing a huge drop in numbers but a much better quality of lift.

Again my argument is not that the average person walking around can do all this stuff. Its that the average person with training will be able to do it. To label yourself genetically gifted you will have to go above and beyond that.

102

One last thing, Joe84 this

"198 to 500/300/500 " is not a 400 bench, its a 300 bench. You honestly think benching 300lbs is hard for a 200+ kid to do with proper training for 2 years?

103

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
But if you take that 300 lb squatter and make him a 400 lb squatter, and you make the 400 lb squatter a 500 lber, they will both be better players than previously.

See I’m not so sure that’s true. It might be, but nothing exists in isolation. What does it take to get the 300lb squat to 400? If it’s at the sacrifice of more important qualities, it may not be.

Now of course, for a lineman, I think you get closer to where absolute strength becomes important. But how many times do you hear the phrase “speed kills” get thrown around? Maximal strength and speed aren’t always correlated. Maximal strength is important and can help lay a foundation but I don’t think it is the holy grail that some make it out to be.

I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy this. “IF it’s at the sacrifice of more important qualities…” That is a pretty big ‘if;’ it feeds into an outdated notion of weightlifting doing what? Making you slower, musclebound, etc? I dont think any of us are arguing that any athlete’s prep work should consist solely of weight room time - I know I’m not.[/quote]

I don’t think he meant it that way. I think jtrinsey meant that if a player decided that “bigger squat = better football player” and concentrated on training their squat all offseason while neglecting things like conditioning, speed work, technique etc. they would likely be worse off.

I doubt anyone would argue that if a player could instantaneously raise there strength that this would be a bad thing. Its more that at some point, the time and effort required to make further gains in the weight room increases to a point where it takes away from the time/energy available to train other football (applies to any sport really) related qualities.

104

[quote]OBoile wrote:
I don’t think he meant it that way. I think jtrinsey meant that if a player decided that “bigger squat = better football player” and concentrated on training their squat all offseason while neglecting things like conditioning, speed work, technique etc. they would likely be worse off.

I doubt anyone would argue that if a player could instantaneously raise there strength that this would be a bad thing. Its more that at some point, the time and effort required to make further gains in the weight room increases to a point where it takes away from the time/energy available to train other football (applies to any sport really) related qualities.
[/quote]

Yeah that’s basically the point I was making. Strength is not developed in a vacuum. Maximal strength by itself really has little to do with performance in any sort of team sport. Maximal strength is important because of the effect that developing it has on explosive strength, of which it has been shown to have considerable effect.

I think some people just get caught up in how much they can lift, not the effect their lifting has on their sport. You might increase your squat 20 pounds by being able to hold on to tension and grind through a sticking point for an extra second and you might not be any better of a player.

I know that at times I have fallen into this trap of getting too caught up in weightroom numbers. For a while I was way too concerned with getting my deadlift over 500 and when I did, I wasn’t any better of an athlete, in fact my vertical was down a little because I had neglected explosive strength.

I realize it is very easy to sit back on a message board and say that these things happens but in the real world of training athletes it does. Not saying anybody here is saying that, more just basing it off personal experience. Maximal strength is good but being too concerned with it can certainly be detrimental to performance.

105

in the olden days most pro football players had to work at regular jobs in the off season and had crappier helmets.

106

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

I realize it is very easy to sit back on a message board and say that these things happens but in the real world of training athletes it does. Not saying anybody here is saying that, more just basing it off personal experience. Maximal strength is good but being too concerned with it can certainly be detrimental to performance. [/quote]

Sad part is even when you know it you still get caught up in it. I think it’s just that some people are gym rats and need resistance. Once you feel weights its hard to feel like your improving just jumping up and down. It’s the worst when you like the weights and a sport like basketball, such a conflict.

107

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

Sad part is even when you know it you still get caught up in it. I think it’s just that some people are gym rats and need resistance. Once you feel weights its hard to feel like your improving just jumping up and down. It’s the worst when you like the weights and a sport like basketball, such a conflict.[/quote]

truth. This is why I thank god that I despise basketball.

108

The guy that can’t bench 135 just isn’t trying… how stupid can you be? Just screwing around with some friends at the YMCA when I was 13 for a couple of months, anyone who benched more than once a month with intensity around a 3/10 was able to bench 135 for reps when they weighed around 130.

109

[quote]OBoile wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
But if you take that 300 lb squatter and make him a 400 lb squatter, and you make the 400 lb squatter a 500 lber, they will both be better players than previously.

See I’m not so sure that’s true. It might be, but nothing exists in isolation. What does it take to get the 300lb squat to 400? If it’s at the sacrifice of more important qualities, it may not be.

Now of course, for a lineman, I think you get closer to where absolute strength becomes important. But how many times do you hear the phrase “speed kills” get thrown around? Maximal strength and speed aren’t always correlated. Maximal strength is important and can help lay a foundation but I don’t think it is the holy grail that some make it out to be.

I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy this. “IF it’s at the sacrifice of more important qualities…” That is a pretty big ‘if;’ it feeds into an outdated notion of weightlifting doing what? Making you slower, musclebound, etc? I dont think any of us are arguing that any athlete’s prep work should consist solely of weight room time - I know I’m not.

I don’t think he meant it that way. I think jtrinsey meant that if a player decided that “bigger squat = better football player” and concentrated on training their squat all offseason while neglecting things like conditioning, speed work, technique etc. they would likely be worse off.

I doubt anyone would argue that if a player could instantaneously raise there strength that this would be a bad thing. Its more that at some point, the time and effort required to make further gains in the weight room increases to a point where it takes away from the time/energy available to train other football (applies to any sport really) related qualities.
[/quote]

Well, if we’re saying that getting from an optimal squat strength to a supra-optimal squat strength is done as the expense of TIME SPENT on developing other qualities, I think we can all agreee to that.

But then again, you really can’t completely neglect anything. If your conditioning is good enough to play football, you dont need to improve it to the point that you can run a marathon at the expense of time spent on speed work, technique, strength, etc. If your speed is good enough to play football you dont need to improve it to the level of an olympic sprinter at teh expense of time spent on strength, conditioning, etc. If your explosiveness is good enough to play football, you dont need to improve it to the point that you could make the US weightlifting team at teh expense of time spent developing other qualities

Bottom line is that all things reach a point of diminishing returns

110

[quote]rander wrote:
KBCThird wrote:Of course, that raises teh issue of the fact that there ARE a decent number of strong guys walking around not competing simply because the strength sports dont provide enough of an incentive. This is a subject for a whole other thread, but how many guys would be playing in the NFL and putting their bodies through the abuse if they didnt have the opportunity to set themselves, and sometimes their children, up for life? A lot fewer, I can tell you that

in the olden days most pro football players had to work at regular jobs in the off season and had crappier helmets. [/quote]

I’m not sure what your point is here … that things are better off today? I’d agree, the quality of play is MUCH better, because players have more financial incentive. There’s a greater likelihood that a guy will say “screw it, I dont need this aggravation” to something when it is NOT his sole source of income, or if that income can be somewhat easily matched doing something else.

111

[quote]IainK wrote:
Someone mentioned Bulgarian lifters using 90% consitantly in training?

This is not 90% of comp max, but 90% of a training max done on the same day with little mental effort. Very different from 90% of a full out max done in a comp. Plus powerlifting moves done at max load are quasi-isometrics (Siff) ie slow ‘grinding’ efforts and vastly different from the oly movments.

The above make copmraisons of loads used in by the Oly community difficult to compare to powerlifters etc. Not to mention teh restorative methods employed by the, then, soviet block countries.[/quote]

You can use 90% or better of your 1 rep max in WSB, in fact, this is what it is all based upon, but, and this is the big but, you must change exercises when you choose your ME movements.
Like on your bench days: 3 weeks of a 2 board press and then you go to something else, like maybe 3 weeks of close grip or floor press.