[quote]unearth wrote:
solyjr wrote:
A bunch of stupid bullshit.
Hey solyjr,
STFU![/quote]
LoL, crawl back into your hole…
[quote]solyjr wrote:
You have stated neither facts nor insight to anything. You attacked people who had differing opinions than yours. Now that you have been put in your place you are becoming semi-civil.
Welcome to T-Nation.
That statement is incorrect, did you even read my initial post?
[/quote]
That’s it, eh? Again, Welcome.
[quote]solyjr wrote:
pookie wrote:
FYI, this is not a personal attack, just a response to you.
Yah I complain, but the difference is I am not a self proclaimed expert in said named subject, and go on to judge the decisions those people make. The same can be said for any stupidity they may do. Now the big difference between say a programmer, and a service member is the effect of war.
Bad things happen in war, the human psyche can only handle so much before real physiological damage, or impairment of judgment occurs.
What were they doing out there in the middle of no where? Could they have been doing something better? I don’t know, maybe they were at a post waiting and reporting anything that moved etc. So they got bored, and threw, from what I could tell some small rocks at a dog. Why? Best I could tell was so they could film it hobbling off, which they found to be humorous. Was it wrong or right… everyone has an opinion, but did they do something horrendous to it? No…
Do they deserve the hatred proclaimed on this discussion? I don?t think so? So I, like the rest on here, posted my 2 cents from a point of view that very few people could offer. I just attempted to lift the blinders of ignorance towards things over there. However there will be those that just plain don?t care, and want to stick to being narrow minded.
So take my facts that I shared, do what you will, form a better understanding or hold on to your ignorant opinions. Just remember what they say about opinions?
They are like butt-holes, everyone has one and they all stink?[/quote]
I respect your opinion. I personally think this is being way overblown by many posters. Claiming these guys should be shot by a sniper or blown up by some IED is callous and depraved.
I think what they were doing was idiotic (filming it and letting it get on the internet even more so), but I don’t think they deserve the death penalty for it. And the dog looks like it has had much worse in its miserable life.
My main beef with your first intervention was you telling everyone who’s not a soldier or who hasn’t seen combat to STFU. Personally, I think there is too much STFUing going on in the world in general, too many people put up with situations they don’t agree with because speaking up or getting involved is too much trouble.
That doesn’t mean I automatically agree with everyone’s opinion. If these soldiers get latrine duty for a few weeks, it should probably be because they made themselves, and by extension, the armed forces, look bad.
This clip will be used by every anti-military proponents and probably by other idiots such as PETA for their own purposes. I think most people are sufficient intelligent and reasonable to be fully aware of the personal sacrifices these guys must make to serve their country.
Thank you, I wish more US youth could really travel, and I don’t mean Cancun spring break.
It is an eye opener and I have never felt more LUCKY to be an American.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
Roy wrote:
Whoever posted to PGA saying that America is the “lap of luxury” is terribly confused.
Yes, some people, maybe even PGA, grow up in rich families and goto private schools and live great lives. But for others, like myself, it wasn’t quite luxurious.
I grew up in southeast L.A. There’s nothing luxurious about 24/7 gang violence, racism, and roits.
Cry me a river…Did you have air conditioning (probably), Did you have cable TV (probably), Did you have a roof over your head (probably), Did you have food in the fridge (probably), did you go to a public school (yes), did you have a closet full of clothes (probably).
You grew up with more luxury than about 85% of the world’s population. The worst of American poverty is luxurious compared to most of the world. You didn’t grow up in a mud hut in Afghanistan, or a cardboard box in New Dehli, or on the streets of Manila. You have no idea how priveledged you are. You have no idea what REAL poverty is.
[/quote]
[quote]pookie wrote:
solyjr wrote:
pookie wrote:
FYI, this is not a personal attack, just a response to you.
Yah I complain, but the difference is I am not a self proclaimed expert in said named subject, and go on to judge the decisions those people make. The same can be said for any stupidity they may do. Now the big difference between say a programmer, and a service member is the effect of war.
Bad things happen in war, the human psyche can only handle so much before real physiological damage, or impairment of judgment occurs.
What were they doing out there in the middle of no where? Could they have been doing something better? I don’t know, maybe they were at a post waiting and reporting anything that moved etc. So they got bored, and threw, from what I could tell some small rocks at a dog. Why? Best I could tell was so they could film it hobbling off, which they found to be humorous. Was it wrong or right… everyone has an opinion, but did they do something horrendous to it? No…
Do they deserve the hatred proclaimed on this discussion? I don?t think so? So I, like the rest on here, posted my 2 cents from a point of view that very few people could offer. I just attempted to lift the blinders of ignorance towards things over there. However there will be those that just plain don?t care, and want to stick to being narrow minded.
So take my facts that I shared, do what you will, form a better understanding or hold on to your ignorant opinions. Just remember what they say about opinions?
They are like butt-holes, everyone has one and they all stink?
I respect your opinion. I personally think this is being way overblown by many posters. Claiming these guys should be shot by a sniper or blown up by some IED is callous and depraved.
I think what they were doing was idiotic (filming it and letting it get on the internet even more so), but I don’t think they deserve the death penalty for it. And the dog looks like it has had much worse in its miserable life.
My main beef with your first intervention was you telling everyone who’s not a soldier or who hasn’t seen combat to STFU. Personally, I think there is too much STFUing going on in the world in general, too many people put up with situations they don’t agree with because speaking up or getting involved is too much trouble.
That doesn’t mean I automatically agree with everyone’s opinion. If these soldiers get latrine duty for a few weeks, it should probably be because they made themselves, and by extension, the armed forces, look bad.
This clip will be used by every anti-military proponents and probably by other idiots such as PETA for their own purposes. I think most people are sufficient intelligent and reasonable to be fully aware of the personal sacrifices these guys must make to serve their country.
[/quote]
I strongly feel unless you’ve been over there you have no room to speak. All the stuff that any human, not just US service members, experiences is… Hell. The dog incident is nothing compared to what people go through over there. Is this my opinion? Yes? are others entitled to theirs? Yes? However common sense says mine is more valid.
Essentially these things are buzzards, how man people have love for buzzards? How many would be complaining if the damn dog had wings and a beak? It?s my opinion it would be far less, and I bet no one would be saying I hope those soldiers get blown up.
The problem is one person?s crusade can become glorified, then a pack of ?jump on the band wagon?, type personality come out of the wood work. And the next thing you know that one person that started it, creates a snowball effect.
Even if the subject really isn?t that passionate to the others. They do it because the oringinator sounds his battle cry, and followers eat that up. I guess they need something to do with their spare time, a cause to make them selves feel worth while, all the time putting down those that are really out there doing something worth while. This gives them a sense of being somebody, by putting down? somebody? It just sickens me, it?s like a plague.
I see the original poster showing compassion for a dog, but where is the compassion for humans over there? I mean come on… was it wrong to toss a few small stones at a crippled dog? Again opinions will differ… But what humans are enduring over there is surely wrong.
The only thing I interpreted was, save the animal, kill the beasts tossing stones. So yah I jumped in?
I quite honestly feel they have no room to voice an ignorant based opinion, unless they can attest to what goes on over there first hand. You can not possibly imagine what a person goes through over there, hell even when not in war; the sacrifices service members are unimaginable by many.
I am passionate about my time yes; I am proud, yes… Am I closed minded? hardly, I?m just informed.
The biggest thing I have is insight due to my past experiences which regular people will never begin to fathom.
I know you?ve had this happen: when person talking out of his/her ass about things they know nothing about, yet they can not be told any different because they wear the blissfully ignorant blinders. Or how bout when they talk about something you do know, and tell everyone around you negative things and try to back it up with stupidity.
Anyhow? I can?t expect to possibly make people understand, I guess I need to heed my own words and come to grip that unless you are there you just won?t understand. So they threw rocks at the dog. So they got a laugh out of it, so what 10 mins after that clip they became targets of (insert whatever type of weapon that leaves a mess here), and one of them died.
They been shitting in their drawers, scared for their life, it?s not a pick nick over there, and got to laugh for 2 mins out of the day, yah they should be persecuted those rat bastards.
We now continue with our regularly schedule of asshats reading stuff on the internet becoming subject matter experts on anything/everything they read so they can go on crucifying others in the name of?
Enjoy your freedom to do so?
Bows out
[quote]solyjr wrote:
Enjoy your freedom to do so?
Bows out[/quote]
That you don’t realize that your one dimensional on this unreal.
You, yourself are bringing to light that these guys are soldiers more than any other poster. Soldiers get a pass, just because of what they experience or might experience?
You keep talking about your experiences when men throwing rocks at dogs has nothing to do with your experiences or where the geographical location of said dog is.
Would you defend these guys with such vigor if they had not been in Iraq? Maybe in downtown metropolis? Or would you then bring up the fact that they COULD be deployed somewhere bad.
Your words scream that as long as you are in uniform you can do no wrong.
You personally made this a bigger issue than it initially was.
[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
solyjr wrote:
Enjoy your freedom to do so?
Bows out
That you don’t realize that your one dimensional on this unreal.
You, yourself are bringing to light that these guys are soldiers more than any other poster. Soldiers get a pass, just because of what they experience or might experience?
You keep talking about your experiences when men throwing rocks at dogs has nothing to do with your experiences or where the geographical location of said dog is.
Would you defend these guys with such vigor if they had not been in Iraq? Maybe in downtown metropolis? Or would you then bring up the fact that they COULD be deployed somewhere bad.
Your words scream that as long as you are in uniform you can do no wrong.
You personally made this a bigger issue than it initially was.
[/quote]
I am not one dimensional, my conversation is.
I am not saying anything about “as long as you?re in uniform you can do no wrong”. I never indicated anything about the uniform, in fact I stated any humans over there, I stipulated in combat, or war situations.
Geological location does not have anything to do with the dog incident, you are correct, however the physiological effect of their surrounding environment has a direct effect on said persons involved in this heinous act.
The least of anyone?s worries over there is the well being of a stupid wild animal.
You?re the one trying so vigorously to make me look like an ass, and yourself as a saint.
Your just ignoring what I’m saying and arguing for the sake of arguing. Trying to lesson my over all message. But hey, that?s your right, your freedom you so enjoy, so please do.
So bash those who do what you can not, won?t do, or are scared to do.
For throwing some rocks at a dog.
Self righteous ignorance at it?s best.
But really I am going to have to walk away; this is like beating my head against a wall. You and many like you are, and will be clueless. I just have to accept that fact.
To hell with the dog for crying out loud…
[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
solyjr wrote:
Enjoy your freedom to do so?
Bows out
That you don’t realize that your one dimensional on this unreal.
You, yourself are bringing to light that these guys are soldiers more than any other poster. Soldiers get a pass, just because of what they experience or might experience?
You keep talking about your experiences when men throwing rocks at dogs has nothing to do with your experiences or where the geographical location of said dog is.
Would you defend these guys with such vigor if they had not been in Iraq? Maybe in downtown metropolis? Or would you then bring up the fact that they COULD be deployed somewhere bad.
Your words scream that as long as you are in uniform you can do no wrong.
You personally made this a bigger issue than it initially was.
[/quote]
Soldiers do not get a free pass, but in a combat zone they AT LEAST deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I think his point was that unless you’ve been in their shoes, you don’t really understand.
Combat is unlike any other human experience. It’s days and weeks of total boredom, interrupted by brief periods of sheer terror and chaos. It can not be simulated. Those who have never experienced it can never truly understand. Sometimes it requires people to do things that, if seen through the lens of inexperience, may appear cruel and wrong.
This video shows some bored soldiers trying to make some crazy-assed, two-legged “dog” run. They didn’t hurt it. If my job was to position myself right there and that nasty creature was that close to me, I’d throw a rock at it to make it move (or shoot it if it got too close). I’m sure it was funny as hell at the time and you would have laughed your ass off if you were there. Now, if they shot the thing in the leg to watch it suffer…that would be wrong.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
MaloVerde wrote:
Soldiers do not get a free pass, but in a combat zone they AT LEAST deserve the benefit of the doubt.[/quote]
I will only give the benefit of the doubt if the actions were unintentional and not deliberate.
[quote]
I think his point was that unless you’ve been in their shoes, you don’t really understand.[/quote]
I’ve repeatedly told this knuckle head that I HAVE been in their shoes, yet he continues to address me like I can’t relate. What he doesn’t understand or is unwilling to address is that identifying a cruel act has nothing to do with these guys being soldiers.
[quote]
Combat is unlike any other human experience. It’s days and weeks of total boredom, interrupted by brief periods of sheer terror and chaos. It can not be simulated. Those who have never experienced it can never truly understand. Sometimes it requires people to do things that, if seen through the lens of inexperience, may appear cruel and wrong.[/quote]
It doesn’t take experience to identify what’s cruel and wrong. I’ll agree that relating helps understand a person mind frame, but to say you have to walk in someone’s shoes to point out the obvious is crazy.
You obviously don’t know me well enough to know what I think is funny.
The level of cruelty doesn’t matter to me. They should have shot the dog and put it out of its misery or left it alone to die.
I never condemned these soldiers to death or even punishment. I stated that what they did was idiotic, nothing more. Then some nimrod tells me I can’t relate to what they are going through. When I tell him I can relate and give him questions to ponder. Does he respond to my inquiries, no. He rambles on about how I still can’t relate.
I didn’t see him calling out people who agreed with him, but had no military experience. Only those who opposed his opinion.
This thread, more than most on this forum, is indicative of the gap between civilians and military in the United States. The military, specifically the Army and the Marine Corps, are at war. We haven’t had this much combat time since Vietnam. We haven’t had this many combat veterans since Vietnam.
The veterans who served in the peacetime military can’t even relate, they have no experience in a war like this. Veterans of the 1st Persian Gulf war will tell you that they didn’t experience fighting like the current veterans have.
The only way an average person can relate to the war in Iraq and Afganistan is through the information that comes accross the popular media. Casualty numbers are easy to relate to, 3000+ dead Americans is something everyone can get thier heads around. Movies of soldiers teasing kids and soldiers throwing rocks at dogs are easy to comment on because it is obviously wrong.
What civilian people can’t relate to is the combat experience. There just isn’t anything like it. Traumatic events occur to civilians every day, but they are few and far between(car accidents, deaths of a friend or loved one, natural disasters) and as an estimate occur every two years or more.
A infantryman in Iraq is experiencing a number of traumatic events during a year long tour that is more than nearly all civilians will experience in lifetime. Some guys are going back for a third tour. That really starts to get in your head after a while and changes the way you look at everything. Your perspective on life changes. It takes a while to recover from that.
What Solyjr, PJG, myself, and a few others are usually trying to say in regards to events like these is that it just isn’t a big deal to the guys in these videos. Taken as a whole, what they have done is stupid, but inconsequential. What is dog’s life when you’ve seen your friends die? What is a dog’s life worth in Iraq?, not much at all.
There is a lot of anger directed at these guys, but little consideration for what they have gone through to end up in a condition where screwing with a crippled dog, or Iraqi children, is fun.
It is fine to continue to post that these guys are idiots, because they are, but keep in mind when you do that there is nothing in your experiences that will give you insight into what they were thinking at that moment.
To establish my own credibility, or lack there-of, I have not served in Iraq. I am a 15 year Marine, enlisted and and currently an Officer, a veteran of Somalia, did a security mission in Croatia, and have deployed overseas in a peace time capacity several times. I will be deploying to either Iraq or Afganistan at the end of the summer 2007.
[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
PGJ wrote:
MaloVerde wrote:
Soldiers do not get a free pass, but in a combat zone they AT LEAST deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I will only give the benefit of the doubt if the actions were unintentional and not deliberate.
I think his point was that unless you’ve been in their shoes, you don’t really understand.
I’ve repeatedly told this knuckle head that I HAVE been in their shoes, yet he continues to address me like I can’t relate. What he doesn’t understand or is unwilling to address is that identifying a cruel act has nothing to do with these guys being soldiers.
Combat is unlike any other human experience. It’s days and weeks of total boredom, interrupted by brief periods of sheer terror and chaos. It can not be simulated. Those who have never experienced it can never truly understand. Sometimes it requires people to do things that, if seen through the lens of inexperience, may appear cruel and wrong.
It doesn’t take experience to identify what’s cruel and wrong. I’ll agree that relating helps understand a person mind frame, but to say you have to walk in someone’s shoes to point out the obvious is crazy.
This video shows some bored soldiers trying to make some crazy-assed, two-legged “dog” run. They didn’t hurt it. If my job was to position myself right there and that nasty creature was that close to me, I’d throw a rock at it to make it move (or shoot it if it got too close). I’m sure it was funny as hell at the time and you would have laughed your ass off if you were there. Now, if they shot the thing in the leg to watch it suffer…that would be wrong.
You obviously don’t know me well enough to know what I think is funny.
The level of cruelty doesn’t matter to me. They should have shot the dog and put it out of its misery or left it alone to die.
I never condemned these soldiers to death or even punishment. I stated that what they did was idiotic, nothing more. Then some nimrod tells me I can’t relate to what they are going through. When I tell him I can relate and give him questions to ponder. Does he respond to my inquiries, no. He rambles on about how I still can’t relate.
I didn’t see him calling out people who agreed with him, but had no military experience. Only those who opposed his opinion.
[/quote]
Clarify your “inquiries”. Perhaps I did not respond the way you wanted me too. Or I have overlooked them. Had I noticed any other of your questions, I would of addressed them.
Bah this is fruitfull, I’m gonna have my opinions, you all are going to have yours…
[quote]BH6 wrote:
Taken as a whole, what they have done is stupid, but inconsequential.[/quote]
Exactly. Good post.
[quote]
To establish my own credibility, or lack there-of, I have not served in Iraq. I am a 15 year Marine, enlisted and and currently an Officer, a veteran of Somalia, did a security mission in Croatia, and have deployed overseas in a peace time capacity several times. I will be deploying to either Iraq or Afganistan at the end of the summer 2007. [/quote]
No need to establish your creds, brother. You are known here. Thanks for you service and stay safe.
Off the subject, why is it my posts get hacked? like my punctutations turn into question marks, sometimes, not often, my letters get rearanged…
[quote]BH6 wrote:
This thread, more than most on this forum, is indicative of the gap between civilians and military in the United States. The military, specifically the Army and the Marine Corps, are at war. We haven’t had this much combat time since Vietnam. We haven’t had this many combat veterans since Vietnam.
The veterans who served in the peacetime military can’t even relate, they have no experience in a war like this. Veterans of the 1st Persian Gulf war will tell you that they didn’t experience fighting like the current veterans have.
The only way an average person can relate to the war in Iraq and Afganistan is through the information that comes accross the popular media. Casualty numbers are easy to relate to, 3000+ dead Americans is something everyone can get thier heads around. Movies of soldiers teasing kids and soldiers throwing rocks at dogs are easy to comment on because it is obviously wrong.
What civilian people can’t relate to is the combat experience. There just isn’t anything like it. Traumatic events occur to civilians every day, but they are few and far between(car accidents, deaths of a friend or loved one, natural disasters) and as an estimate occur every two years or more.
A infantryman in Iraq is experiencing a number of traumatic events during a year long tour that is more than nearly all civilians will experience in lifetime. Some guys are going back for a third tour. That really starts to get in your head after a while and changes the way you look at everything. Your perspective on life changes. It takes a while to recover from that.
What Solyjr, PJG, myself, and a few others are usually trying to say in regards to events like these is that it just isn’t a big deal to the guys in these videos. Taken as a whole, what they have done is stupid, but inconsequential. What is dog’s life when you’ve seen your friends die? What is a dog’s life worth in Iraq?, not much at all.
There is a lot of anger directed at these guys, but little consideration for what they have gone through to end up in a condition where screwing with a crippled dog, or Iraqi children, is fun.
It is fine to continue to post that these guys are idiots, because they are, but keep in mind when you do that there is nothing in your experiences that will give you insight into what they were thinking at that moment.
To establish my own credibility, or lack there-of, I have not served in Iraq. I am a 15 year Marine, enlisted and and currently an Officer, a veteran of Somalia, did a security mission in Croatia, and have deployed overseas in a peace time capacity several times. I will be deploying to either Iraq or Afganistan at the end of the summer 2007.
[/quote]
Very well said, brother. I should be heading to the “Big Sandbox” sometime in early 08.
Sometimes I think people forget these are America’s professional killers. Like it or not, soldiers and Marines are trained to kill people. Compassion is in short supply in a combat zone. The dog was not hurt. It reminds me of the guys painting unit logos on wild turtles in 29 Palms. Funny as hell, but illegal.
[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
PGJ wrote:
MaloVerde wrote:
Soldiers do not get a free pass, but in a combat zone they AT LEAST deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I will only give the benefit of the doubt if the actions were unintentional and not deliberate.
I think his point was that unless you’ve been in their shoes, you don’t really understand.
I’ve repeatedly told this knuckle head that I HAVE been in their shoes, yet he continues to address me like I can’t relate. What he doesn’t understand or is unwilling to address is that identifying a cruel act has nothing to do with these guys being soldiers.
Combat is unlike any other human experience. It’s days and weeks of total boredom, interrupted by brief periods of sheer terror and chaos. It can not be simulated. Those who have never experienced it can never truly understand. Sometimes it requires people to do things that, if seen through the lens of inexperience, may appear cruel and wrong.
It doesn’t take experience to identify what’s cruel and wrong. I’ll agree that relating helps understand a person mind frame, but to say you have to walk in someone’s shoes to point out the obvious is crazy.
This video shows some bored soldiers trying to make some crazy-assed, two-legged “dog” run. They didn’t hurt it. If my job was to position myself right there and that nasty creature was that close to me, I’d throw a rock at it to make it move (or shoot it if it got too close). I’m sure it was funny as hell at the time and you would have laughed your ass off if you were there. Now, if they shot the thing in the leg to watch it suffer…that would be wrong.
You obviously don’t know me well enough to know what I think is funny.
The level of cruelty doesn’t matter to me. They should have shot the dog and put it out of its misery or left it alone to die.
I never condemned these soldiers to death or even punishment. I stated that what they did was idiotic, nothing more. Then some nimrod tells me I can’t relate to what they are going through. When I tell him I can relate and give him questions to ponder. Does he respond to my inquiries, no. He rambles on about how I still can’t relate.
I didn’t see him calling out people who agreed with him, but had no military experience. Only those who opposed his opinion.
[/quote]
Malo,
I did not intend my comments to be directed at you. They were just “for the masses”. A few guys here seem to be EXTREMELY offended and immediately crucified the soldiers unjustly. Yes, they are a bunch of dufuses, but it ain’t like they ripped it’s legs off. Dumb, bored kids doing goofy things. It’s the American way.
Speaking as an active duty Marine officer, part of my frustration with stupid things like this is that nobody gets offended when the terrorists saw off people’s heads, or mutilate American bodies and hang them from bridges, or hide IED’s that kill Americans, or blow themselves up in crowded markets. But fuck with one mangy dog and all hell breaks loose. Some people are actually offended that Saddam was hanged. WTF!?
[quote]PGJ wrote:
Speaking as an active duty Marine officer, part of my frustration with stupid things like this is that nobody gets offended when the terrorists saw off people’s heads, or mutilate American bodies and hang them from bridges, or hide IED’s that kill Americans, or blow themselves up in crowded markets. But fuck with one mangy dog and all hell breaks loose. Some people are actually offended that Saddam was hanged. WTF!? [/quote]
We’re allowed to hold “those people” to a different standard, because they are different from us. Don’t you know anything about bigotry? Or are you an moran???
BH6 Excellent Post.
My dad told me an old Vietnam saying among the troops back then: “it don’t mean nothing”. I am sure guys can relate.
You and PGJ stay safe.
[quote]hedo wrote:
BH6 Excellent Post.
My dad told me an old Vietnam saying among the troops back then: “it don’t mean nothing”. I am sure guys can relate.
You and PGJ stay safe.[/quote]
Thanks.
[quote]solyjr wrote:
Off the subject, why is it my posts get hacked? like my punctutations turn into question marks, sometimes, not often, my letters get rearanged…[/quote]
Writing your posts in Word and then copying and pasting them seems to do it but I have no idea why.