Pissed Off About a Military Comment

Hey Guys,

A member of my gym made a comment the other day about our military that didn’t sit well with me. I wanted the opinion of the people on T-Nation about it, particularly those who have served in the armed forces.

The story about the solider who had thrown the puppy off a cliff in Iraq had come up the other day.

A lady in the room made the comment: “Well, what else do you expect. They train these young kids to become killing machines. This is what happens”.

I would like to hold what was my response until I see what the people on here think.

Thanks,
Mike Cruickshank

I’d like to tell that person to go shove their opinion where the sun don’t shine. These guys (for the most part) are decent people going out there to protect our freedom.

Oh no, but I’m sure if we just talk to the terrorists, they’ll listen.

The person at your gym is a fucking retard.

I stole this from World1187, but it’s damn relevant. I hope he won’t mind.

[quote]ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS
By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER, Ph.D.,author of “On Killing.”

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to theUnited States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: “Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident.” This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin’s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

“Then there are the wolves,” the old war veteran said, “and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.” Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

“Then there are sheepdogs,” he went on, “and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.”
If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens?

What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

Let me expand on this old soldier’s excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids’ schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid’s school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep’s only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, “Baa.”

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, “Thank God I wasn’t on one of those planes.” The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, “Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference.” When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like
big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I’m proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, “Let’s roll,” which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. – from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn’t have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior’s path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, “I will never be caught without my gun in church.” I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy’s body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, “Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?”

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for “heads to roll” if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids’ school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, “Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?”

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn’t bring your gun, you didn’t train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: “…denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn’t so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling.”

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be “on” 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself…“Baa.”

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other.

Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.[/quote]

Tell the moron to read this and make judgment.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
I’d like to tell that person to go shove their opinion where the sun don’t shine. These guys (for the most part) are decent people going out there to protect our freedom.
[/quote]

How exactly were Iraqis threatening your freedom?

[quote]will to power wrote:
How exactly were Iraqis threatening your freedom?[/quote]

I was more pissed at this comment: “Well, what else do you expect. They train these young kids to become killing machines. This is what happens”

As far as I’m concerned, the soldiers did their job. The fault lies with the people who organized such a half-assed occupation. But I’m sure Saddam was a nice enough guy. You know, aside from gassing villages and such.

EDIT: Ok, that sounded a bit wrong. I don’t mean the soldier who killed that dog, that was stupid. I mean the soldiers who go to foreign countries and fight the bad guys.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
will to power wrote:
How exactly were Iraqis threatening your freedom?

I was more pissed at this comment: “Well, what else do you expect. They train these young kids to become killing machines. This is what happens”

As far as I’m concerned, the soldier did their job. The fault lies with the people who organized such a half assed occupation. But I’m sure Saddam was a nice enough guy. You know, aside from gassing villages and such.[/quote]

I love how any time someone questions the motives, execution and morality of the invasion it means they’re supporting Saddam. I’ve hated Saddam probably longer than you knew who he was, and what he did hits a damn lot closer to me than you so don’t give me that bullshit. The point was, whatever you want to say about the troops, the job they have been given isn’t defending your freedom.

Yes, because I’m sure the extremists don’t want to control the world under their twisted interpretation of Islam.

At any rate, I guess I may have reacted a bit strongly, but I end to do that. I have several close friends serving in Afghanistan, and it pisses me off when people criticize the soldiers. They’re doing their jobs.

there are assholes in every job, the military is a job and it has there share of assholes. I thought that whole dog thing was fake though anyways. Most of the military guys I’ve met are decent hard working people.

[quote]will to power wrote:
Makavali wrote:
will to power wrote:
How exactly were Iraqis threatening your freedom?

I was more pissed at this comment: “Well, what else do you expect. They train these young kids to become killing machines. This is what happens”

As far as I’m concerned, the soldier did their job. The fault lies with the people who organized such a half assed occupation. But I’m sure Saddam was a nice enough guy. You know, aside from gassing villages and such.

I love how any time someone questions the motives, execution and morality of the invasion it means they’re supporting Saddam. I’ve hated Saddam probably longer than you knew who he was, and what he did hits a damn lot closer to me than you so don’t give me that bullshit. The point was, whatever you want to say about the troops, the job they have been given isn’t defending your freedom.[/quote]

Defending our freedom is the sole purpose of our armed forces, in my opinion.

Well they’re in the military. They don’t train you for fucking tickling contests, they train you to kill. I don’t see what’s so inflammatory.

And on top of that, it would be ridiculous to say that people you have trained to kill won’t develop a detachment or a disregard for human life, much less some dog they found. It’s not something you turn on and off.

Drop the politics- this isn’t an issue of an American soldier vs. the iraqi soldier, it’s the psychological effects of being in a combat zone, the mental toll it takes on you, and how the human mind reacts to war and the excessive violence.

For the record, they should be punished (as they were, I think.) Besides being inhumane and brutal, it’s terrible PR in a war where PR is more important than bullets.

It is a stupid dog. Who the hell cares…only wimpy little children that have not yet grown up. I step on ants all the time – to me there is no difference.

How is killing a puppy different than stepping on a spider?

I can’t honestly create a comment for this topic because I don’t know what to say. The comment is completely filled with stupidity, and that kind of ignorance will never be stopped; that kind of ignorance will be saved by the people being called “killing machines”.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Yes, because I’m sure the extremists don’t want to control the world under their twisted interpretation of Islam.
[/quote]

What does that have to do with Iraq? Saddam was a secular tyrant, and wasn’t trying to expand his borders. Today, Iraqi’s are fighting a civil war and fighting foreign troops on their soil. What does any of this have to do with your freedom?

I agree, hence why I would expect you to be pissed of at the Iraq invasion.

[quote]masonator wrote:
will to power wrote:
Makavali wrote:
will to power wrote:
How exactly were Iraqis threatening your freedom?

I was more pissed at this comment: “Well, what else do you expect. They train these young kids to become killing machines. This is what happens”

As far as I’m concerned, the soldier did their job. The fault lies with the people who organized such a half assed occupation. But I’m sure Saddam was a nice enough guy. You know, aside from gassing villages and such.

I love how any time someone questions the motives, execution and morality of the invasion it means they’re supporting Saddam. I’ve hated Saddam probably longer than you knew who he was, and what he did hits a damn lot closer to me than you so don’t give me that bullshit. The point was, whatever you want to say about the troops, the job they have been given isn’t defending your freedom.

Defending our freedom is the sole purpose of our armed forces, in my opinion.
[/quote]

The military job is to wage war, whether you agree with it or not is a different story. Thats what they do, they wage war.

[quote]will to power wrote:
What does that have to do with Iraq? Saddam was a secular tyrant, and wasn’t trying to expand his borders. Today, Iraqi’s are fighting a civil war and fighting foreign troops on their soil. What does any of this have to do with your freedom?
[/quote]

He was trying to expand his borders. What were the Iraq/Iran, Iraq/Kuwait wars about?

It has nothing to do with our freedom. They are actually fighting for our security.

I’m with FightinIrish on this one.

Now, I’m not saying it’s cool to run around scratching out puppies, but let’s keep some shit in perspective - most of these people are also killing humans.

My brother is currently in Iraq and, inbetween patrolling roads, checking animal corpses for explosives, and being in vehicles hit by IEDs, I know he’s been on the verge of a breakdown before.

I’ve never killed someone, and I have never been placed in a high stress situation for months and months on end, with the distinct possibility of having to kill or be killed looming around every corner. I can only imagine how that might screw with some peoples’ heads.

While the fact that they voluntarily did it, and seemed to find it funny, is disconcerting, I’m not kidding myself bu thinking that there isn’t worse shit going on over there that isn’t being videotaped and put on youtube. These guys were just dumb enough to put what they did on camera.

At any rate, these people have more balls than I do for being over there in the first place. That, alone, gives them a little leeway in my mind.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
will to power wrote:
What does that have to do with Iraq? Saddam was a secular tyrant, and wasn’t trying to expand his borders. Today, Iraqi’s are fighting a civil war and fighting foreign troops on their soil. What does any of this have to do with your freedom?

He was trying to expand his borders. What were the Iraq/Iran, Iraq/Kuwait wars about?

It has nothing to do with our freedom. They are actually fighting for our security. [/quote]

He wasn’t trying to expand his borders when Iraq was invaded. His army had been destroyed by the wars you mentioned as well as sanctions and bombing campaigns over the 90’s.

Freedom, security, whatever, how were Iraqi’s threatening you exactly?

[quote]will to power wrote:
Freedom, security, whatever, how were Iraqi’s threatening you exactly?[/quote]

Oh I see. You’re thinking of this in terms of separate countries.

[quote]MikeShank wrote:
Hey Guys,

A member of my gym made a comment the other day about our military that didn’t sit well with me. I wanted the opinion of the people on T-Nation about it, particularly those who have served in the armed forces.

The story about the solider who had thrown the puppy off a cliff in Iraq had come up the other day.

A lady in the room made the comment: “Well, what else do you expect. They train these young kids to become killing machines. This is what happens”.

I would like to hold what was my response until I see what the people on here think.

Thanks,
Mike Cruickshank [/quote]

I’m not in favor of romanticizing anyone. There are dumbasses in all walks of life, including (and sometimes especially) the military.

[quote]wirewound wrote:
I’m not in favor of romanticizing anyone. There are dumbasses in all walks of life, including (and sometimes especially) the military.[/quote]

I romanticize Christine, OG and Renee.

(chalks up another corny point)