Slow Twitch to Fast Twitch?

Training Bodybuilding
21

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
No need to be rude. I’m about to prove you wrong.
[/quote]

hahaha fair enough - but you did very very little to prove me wrong - unless the opinions of individuals with no scientific knowledge count…

There are several issues with both the methodology and content of this article that make it not conclusive. I will point those out to you so that you may analyze studies more critically in the future.

The subjects were not resistance trained. This, rather unfortunately, prevents the results of this study from being applicable to trained populations. Adaptations that take place in novice trainers are more marked and rapid than that seen in individuals with a stable training history.

The training protocol is extreme to say the least, and would not represent a practical application in the real world.

Muscle biopsies can be criticized in that it is impossible to obtain the same sample on two occasions. Due to a heterogeneous mixture of fiber types within a muscle, muscle biopsies from the same subject on the same day can show marked differences in terms of fiber typing.

Fiber type is determined by taking a cross-section of the muscle biopsy and staining it to determine myoglobin (or other cell content) concentrations. The researchers then must subjectively decide what constitutes a “slow twitch” fiber, a Type IIa FT fiber, and a Type IIb FT fiber (they do this by the color the fibers show up as when stained).

This method is far from exact and may indicate a shift towards FT or ST characteristics however does NOT conclusively indicate an actual change in fiber make - up. Which is, as far as anyone knows, is NOT possible.

[quote]
As you can see, it is indeed possible to change your fiber type ratio. Now, try and think before insulting someone.[/quote]

Perhaps you can make up your mind whether it is possible or not. Then, if you would still like to assert that it is, present at least 5 more articles that support your assertion, using human subjects - one “iffy” study is fine, but to prove me wrong, come up with 5 solid ones.

Thanks for your time, budday :slight_smile:

cb.

22

I have to agree here. The notion of shifting the performance qualities of a Type I fiber to “mimic” the qualities of a Type IIA fiber seems like a stretch from the cources you provided. All I read in your references was that the “ratio” changed. This is a well-known phenomena in exercise science, while theory first skirted the concept of hyperplasia…

In regards to the original post, listen to the info regarding strength and power training. More explosive and coordinated recruitment of your “set” fiber make-up will improve your sprinting performance.

23

At the end of the day, whether it’s possible or not, the same training lessons apply.

If you want to be explosive, train explosively. Use low reps, controlled but not extensive eccentrics and really work on exploding the concentric.

24

GOOD REBUTTAL!

If you read it in there, it MUST BE TRUE!

[quote]DanErickson wrote:
Well… I read that you are born with a certain ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch.
Read it in one of the mens health books

Either Testosterone Advantage Plan, or Hard Body Plan[/quote]

25

Cam, my first post incorrectly communicated my opinion. I don’t think fibers can switch types, but for all real purposes, one can cause a shift towards fast twitch expression through the type of training I listed. So while no, you aren’t changing slow to fast fibers, you are indeed changing your fiber ratios, which is just as good for the athlete.

Also, even though the studies weren’t performed on trained individuals, they still show how the human body adapts to a given stimulis. Of course the changes wouldn’t be as extreme within an individual with training experience, but the changes would still take place. And you can’t discount the testing methods used, because they are the standard at the time, and therefor are what we have to rely upon.

So, again, misunderstanding in the communication of my ideas. You can’t actually convert slow to fast fibers, but you can do something that achieves virtually the same results.

26

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
Cam, my first post incorrectly communicated my opinion. I don’t think fibers can switch types, but for all real purposes, one can cause a shift towards fast twitch expression through the type of training I listed. So while no, you aren’t changing slow to fast fibers, you are indeed changing your fiber ratios, which is just as good for the athlete.

Also, even though the studies weren’t performed on trained individuals, they still show how the human body adapts to a given stimulis. Of course the changes wouldn’t be as extreme within an individual with training experience, but the changes would still take place. And you can’t discount the testing methods used, because they are the standard at the time, and therefor are what we have to rely upon.

So, again, misunderstanding in the communication of my ideas. You can’t actually convert slow to fast fibers, but you can do something that achieves virtually the same results.[/quote]

Agreed - the planned and organized application of proper power training principles will enhance the performance of one’s neuromuscular system (and add to the effects of fiber characteristic shifts that occur).

As someone else mentioned, the shift with general resistance training is one in the opposite direction to what is desired from power/sprint athletes - a FG (IIb) to FOG (IIa) shift.

However, along with this shift comes hypertrophy of both types of Type II fibers, which allows for higher levels of force and power development.

Specific training of plyometric/explosive strength drills aids the athlete in that specific patterns of intramuscular and intermuscular coordination are developed.

So, basically, train like a sprinter, do some periodization to enhance your hypertrophy, strength, and power, and you’ll be fine. That is unless you really are genetically beat down, in which case, you’re kinda screwed.

Good luck.

cb.

27

:stuck_out_tongue:

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[quote]mertdawg wrote:
DanErickson wrote:
You cant do that man.
Everybody is born with a certain ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch, you can only make the ones you already got stronger.

They can change. Parapalegics have been found to have 70% fast twitch.
[/quote]

That’s because their slow twitch fibers die out, and so only the fast twitch reamins. This means that the total of the fibers is extremely low, but the ratio of fast to slow is high.

29

[quote]Matt McGorry wrote:
GOOD REBUTTAL!

If you read it in there, it MUST BE TRUE!

DanErickson wrote:
Well… I read that you are born with a certain ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch.
Read it in one of the mens health books

Either Testosterone Advantage Plan, or Hard Body Plan

[/quote]

Uhhh… well why wouldnt I belive what I read from people who have looked through studies done by scientists?

Shutup

30

[quote]DanErickson wrote:
Matt McGorry wrote:
GOOD REBUTTAL!

If you read it in there, it MUST BE TRUE!

DanErickson wrote:
Well… I read that you are born with a certain ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch.
Read it in one of the mens health books

Either Testosterone Advantage Plan, or Hard Body Plan

Uhhh… well why wouldnt I belive what I read from people who have looked through studies done by scientists?

Shutup[/quote]

magazines usually aren’t reliable. They always have things like quick fixes “Gain fifteen pounds in a month while losing body fat” or some other junk like that. That is probably why Matt said that.

31

[quote]Imen de Naars wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
DanErickson wrote:
You cant do that man.
Everybody is born with a certain ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch, you can only make the ones you already got stronger.

They can change. Parapalegics have been found to have 70% fast twitch.

That’s because their slow twitch fibers die out, and so only the fast twitch reamins. This means that the total of the fibers is extremely low, but the ratio of fast to slow is high.
[/quote]

That’s not what the research I’ve read says, it says that type IIx is the neutral genetic expression for all skelital muscle fibers. Muscle fibers aren’t inherently genetically different anyway, only different in how much each gene (IIx, IIb, I, others?) are expressed.

Training shifts the IIx either to IIb-fast oxidative, or to type I, slow oxidative both of which are slower than untrained fibers.

32

My background isn’t biology (it’s engineering) but I do have some speculations about the fibre types.

I remember reading about experiments cross-innervating slow/fast twitch muscles with nerves of another speed, with the result being that the resulting muscle fibre behaviour followed that of the nerve, i.e. fast twitch muscles were slow in response to a low intensity electric signal while slow twitch muscles had a fast twitch response to a high intensity signal. This leads me to believe that the rate of force production within a single fibre is dependent on the strength of the electric signals it receives, rather than its “fibre type”.

As for the different fibre types, I also remember reading that fast twitch fibres tend to be on the outside portion of the muscle while slow twitch fibres are on the inside. Then, one might hypothesize that changes from fast twitch to slow twitch is the result of an adaptation to frequency of electrical stimulation. For example, a low force movement would require only a small electrical output. Such a small electrical signal would not reach the outer muscle fibres due to the electrical insulation effect of the inner fibres. Then, the outer fibres would only be activated if a very strong signal was sent out such that it would still be received after passing through the inner fibres.

So, in this model the outer fibres would receive a lower frequency of stimulating signals, while the inner fibres would have to respond much more frequently. The result is that the inner fibres adapt and optimize themselves to receive a high frequency of stimulations → they adapt to become slow twitch (more endurance oriented).

This would explain how inactive people have a greater amount of fast twitch muscles, and also how any exercise tends to shift muscle fibre types towards the slow end.

33

Zylog,

Good post. Also supporting that idea is the fact that EMS preferentially recruits fast-twitch fiber, due to the electrical signal involved.

So as I’ve said before, train the nervous system and let everything adapt to that.

34

[quote]pocho wrote:
Im a sprinter and some might know that sprinting requires quite a bit of fast twitch fibers.

How can I help transform the slow twitch to fast twitch? I know that you cant change them persay, but I read that you can make them act like fast twitch fibers.

So, are there any workouts that can help to transform slow twitch fibers to fast twitch?

Thanks

Forgot to mention that im a college freshman[/quote]

I’m not gona get into the scientific debate, because quite frankly i dont feel i have the knowledge too. However, since your a sprinter and are probably more interested in sprinting faster than science, i will say that you should be lifting heavy weights(1-5 reps) most of the time and be focusing on big compound lifts.

I recently read in “Beyond Bodybuilding” by Pavel Tsatsouline, Ben Johnson would squat a 3RM before sprinting the 100metres…further illustrating my point that as an athlete requiring speed and power with little if any concern for endurance, most of your weight training should be low rep, long rest periods…

good luck going faster

35

Sprinters can train to become good marathon runners, but marathon runners dont ever become goos sprinters.

Fast can act like slow is what I understood. No science to back that up though.

36

[quote]elliotnewman1 wrote:
I recently read in “Beyond Bodybuilding” by Pavel Tsatsouline, Ben Johnson would squat a 3RM before sprinting the 100metres…

[/quote]

Actually, Charlie Francis said that Ben did not do that. That it was just a rumor. Still though, there has been research indicating a lift like this prior to competition can help.

37

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
elliotnewman1 wrote:
I recently read in “Beyond Bodybuilding” by Pavel Tsatsouline, Ben Johnson would squat a 3RM before sprinting the 100metres…

Actually, Charlie Francis said that Ben did not do that. That it was just a rumor. Still though, there has been research indicating a lift like this prior to competition can help.

[/quote]

Fair enough…only quoting what i read. Should definitely work though

38

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
elliotnewman1 wrote:
I recently read in “Beyond Bodybuilding” by Pavel Tsatsouline, Ben Johnson would squat a 3RM before sprinting the 100metres…

Actually, Charlie Francis said that Ben did not do that. That it was just a rumor. Still though, there has been research indicating a lift like this prior to competition can help.

[/quote]

It raises the threshold for reflexive inhibition to muscular contraction and or lowers the golgi threshold.

39

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
RJ24 wrote:
elliotnewman1 wrote:
I recently read in “Beyond Bodybuilding” by Pavel Tsatsouline, Ben Johnson would squat a 3RM before sprinting the 100metres…

Actually, Charlie Francis said that Ben did not do that. That it was just a rumor. Still though, there has been research indicating a lift like this prior to competition can help.

It raises the threshold for reflexive inhibition to muscular contraction and or lowers the golgi threshold.

[/quote]

As RJ said, Charlie has stated numerous times that Ben did not squat heavy directly before a competition.

Theoretically, it could have a potentiating effect, however it is very individual. Personally speaking, lifting heavy before a practice drains me. If I have quite a few (6+) hours in between, it’s not that bad. But rarely do I see a positive effect.