Skinnyfat Bulking, Training Upper Body Only

Bigger Stronger Leaner
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I have a couple of issues and was hoping to get some guidance on what to doâ?¦apologies for the long post and thanks in advance.

Brief history â?? I started off skinny fat (around 115lbs at 5â??5) with a bit of a belly. I trained for a while not really knowing what I was doing nutrition wise, mainly not eating enough, so never made proper progress.

A few months ago I started Starting Strength (but with rows/chins instead of power cleans) and made a little progress on the lifts although I still wasnâ??t eating enough. I then starting a clean bulking diet and stuck with the program for a few weeks but my knees began to hurt so I switched to 531 for just upper body for a while to give my legs a rest.

Iâ??ve been on 531 for a couple of months now, and have been carefully doing one leg day a week (just playing around with stuff), but my knees donâ??t feel better yet, so Iâ??m going to have to be very careful limiting heavy work with them. All this time Iâ??ve been bulking around a pound a week, and seem to have gained a little muscle but have gained fat too (around 10lb overall). Iâ??m still weak, although relative to my bw am intermediate according to the exrx standards on upper body.

My question is â?? I can only train intense on upper body days on 531 and feel like I will get fat due to not enough work if I bulk. But at the same time I am too skinny to cut. How can I bulk with two days a week upper body without getting more skinnyfat? Is there anything I could replace the leg day with that is easy on the knees (perhaps conditioning with an upper body focus), and will help with lean gains, or should I change to a different program entirely?

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  1. Is something physically wrong with your knees? Like, an actual doctor has checked? If not, then you have bad technique.

You say you did SS, where that program specifically teaches the back squat, low-bar version. If you followed the form that SS teaches, very simplistically and with easy to understand cues, you will not have knee problems. Properly performed back squats do not cause knee pain. Properly performed.

  1. You need to stop worrying about skinnyfat fatskinny blah blah. You’re weak and small. Eat more. Lots more.

  2. There isn’t going to be much “bulking” muscle wise if you’re only doing upper body. The largest muscles in your body are worked by squats and deadlifts. That’s where you put mass on.

  3. Eat more. Lots more.

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[quote]IncredibleBulk9 wrote:
… stuck with the program for a few weeks but my knees began to hurt[/quote]
Unless you have a history of knee, hip, or ankle problems, you were almost-definitely just squatting wrong. Especially on Starting Strength, since you’re squatting three days a week, if you’re doing it wrong, stuff’s gonna hurt. It’s most likely a technique issue that, once addressed, will “cure” your knee pain pretty quick.

What does “playing around with stuff” exactly mean?

What do you weigh now, like 125? What do you look like, fat-wise? Love handles/muffing top, normal/smooth/average, any ab or arm definition, etc.

What, exactly, did you eat yesterday?

The best replacement would be a well-designed, properly-performed leg day.

Sorry, but no excuse you’ve laid out will convince me to say, “Yep, it’s fine to stop training 50+% of your body. Upper body bros forever.”

You need proper leg training, not no leg training.

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Cheers for the quick reply guys. Not quite sure how to quote here so I’ll try to split my post into sections to make it easier to read. Hope this is enough info.

Knee:
I did have knee issues a long time ago (patellofemoral pain syndrome) and went to see a physio who gave me exercises, which combined with light leg training (single leg rdls with no weight, squats with band around legs) seemed to help the pain to go away. I’ve always had knee valgus which I suspected caused some of the pain then. When I did SS I was careful with technique but I suspect I wasn’t careful enough and allowed my knees to cave in slightly which caused the pain I am currently experiencing. As for the stuff I have been doing for legs recently, I’ve mainly just tried exercises out to try and gauge which ones cause pain. Heavy squats and deads seem to make it worse. In my last one I did deads, RDLs and then plate swings inspired by the recent Dan John article. Right now I’m trying to focus on doing physio exercises working external rotators and abductors like before, and doing RDLs for hamstring work (my quads and glutes are much bigger and stronger than hams so I think I’m imbalanced). The plan is to do this and progress slowly until the pain gets better and then get back to heavy squats/deads.

Nutrition:
When I was bulking onae given day I ate:
Breakfast - 100g oats, 50g protein.
Large Lunch - Chicken, eggs, vegetables, rice, coconut oil, olive oil and store bought curry sauce.
Snack - 75g nuts.
Dinner - Chapatis (indian bread) and curry, 50g protein.
Total cals are around 2700k, ~30%P, 40%F, 30%C.
Recently I’ve been eating a little less to maintain weight rather than bulking (have stayed the same weight for about a month, after I notice I was gaining too much fat), and have also trying to up carbs a little and reduce fat intake by varying the snack, its too early to see the effect of that so far.

What I look like:
Shoulders, chest and back have grown a little from before. Haven’t got abs and never had them. Belly seems to have grown more than everywhere else which what I am uncomfortable with, also have a slight muffin top/ love handles. ( don’t think the belly is not because of APT, its there even when I posteriorly tilt, if that’s relevant).

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Also - am around 126lbs atm

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[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
What, exactly, did you eat yesterday?[/quote]

You didn’t answer the question. It’s actually important to answer this honestly.

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LoRez - I ate what I put up there as my bulking diet, except it was a workout day so I replaced the oats with pre and post workout maltodextrin, and replaced the nuts with a few pieces of bread and a banana (playing around with higher carbs as I mentioned).

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[quote]IncredibleBulk9 wrote:
When I did SS I was careful with technique but I suspect I wasn’t careful enough and allowed my knees to cave in slightly which caused the pain I am currently experiencing.[/quote]
So, the root cause was an old underlying problem that was presumably no longer an issue until poor form exacerbated it. Sort out along the track you’re on, get everything 100% healthy again and then reintroduce the basics with sound technique and progressive strengthening (gradually heavier weights).

“Heavy” as in sets of 5 to fatigue, not failure, cause pain? Or heavy as in closer to 1 or 2 rep maxes?

Also, what kind of weights are you moving on the basic lifts - bench, overhead press, pull-ups, rows, squats/deads before you dropped them, etc.?

Have you considered goblet squats to train the squat pattern and strengthen all related muscles?

[quote]Total cals are around 2700k
…
Belly seems to have grown more than everywhere else
…
Also - am around 126lbs atm[/quote]
Presuming you really were getting 2700 calories on most days, these are indicators that your calories are too high. For a guy your size, unless you’re doing a bunch of training (not just lifting three days a week) or your metabolism is flying, you probably don’t “need” that many daily calories.

That you were only gaining a pound a week might make us think your calories weren’t high enough, but you said your strength didn’t increase much and you gained mostly fat. These are, obviously, signs that things need to be changed.

Protein should be the base of pretty much all snacks or meals. I’d increase the protein, not carbs.

So you did write exactly what you ate yesterday, except that you had that one thing instead of the other thing, and had some other stuff instead of that stuff? M’kay.

(I asked because it generally reveals how much or how little people pay attention to what they eat, and also shows some truth about how crappy or clean their diet really is.)

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I?ve taken a stab at trying to quote, hope this works?

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
So, the root cause was an old underlying problem that was presumably no longer an issue until poor form exacerbated it. Sort out along the track you’re on, get everything 100% healthy again and then reintroduce the basics with sound technique and progressive strengthening (gradually heavier weights). [/quote]

Exactly - that’s the plan. I’m sure once I’m back on track I can get back to linear periodization for them.

Weight - 57.5kg
On my most recent 531 week I did:
Bench - 4 x 62.5kg
Press - 5 x 40kg
Most I did on legs, before I stopped SS (pretty low I know):
Deads - 5 x 80kg
Squats - 5 x 70kg
Rows I don’t do (not barbell ones anyway) and pullups are around 15 I think.

When I say heavy causes pain, I meant 5 x 60kg on deads (still pretty light I know) and 10 x 30kg on squats, which now that I think about it is pretty light lol.

Yep I have, may add these in, but I think I probably need to start off even lighter and do bw squats with bands around knees, which were awesome last time for helping me recover.

That’s what I was thinking, and that’s why I’m so confused. On the one hand I’m gaining at 0.5kg a week, which is a slow, lean gaining amount for a beginner, but at the same time seem to be making fat gains. And this is why I think it’s because of my training - because I’m taking leg day slow to rehab, I’m only really training two days a week intense (upper body) so I think I’m not working hard enough, even though I train hard on upper days. Not sure what I can add to this to increase work (including cardio, which I’m not doing or never have done) to improve body comp, in a way that is easy on the knees. Was actually looking at the PLP program from Chad Waterbury today which seemed interesting as an addition, any thoughts?

I’m getting at least 175g protein a day though, which I thought is more than enough for someone of my size?

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Bump…anyone else have any opinions on this? I’m currently just maintaining weight and doing PLP (a bodyweight add on program by Chad Waterbury) in addition to 531, hoping for a recomp effect. Would like to know if there is a better approach out there.

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[quote]IncredibleBulk9 wrote:
Bump…anyone else have any opinions on this? I’m currently just maintaining weight and doing PLP (a bodyweight add on program by Chad Waterbury) in addition to 531, hoping for a recomp effect. Would like to know if there is a better approach out there.[/quote]

Don’t do that. You’ll always find something that seems better out there. There’s no holy grail.

Find something that works for you and keep working it for as long as you keep making progress. Make slight adjustments over time as necessary.

When you stop making progress, or the results aren’t what you’re looking for… and after you’ve given it a fair trial as written (minimum 3 months), then you can consider more major changes.

–

As far as your eating is concerned, just scale it to your workload. If you’re not doing regular heavy squats and deadlifts, your diet needs to adjust accordingly. A good amount of the “beginner gains” weight gains are not from the upper body work, but from gains in the back, glutes, and legs. If you’re not hitting those with enough stimulus, you won’t be building that kind of muscle, and won’t be seeing the same kinds of lean bodyweight gains.

–

As far as your protein question, there’s a number of answers. At the lowest, the recommendation .8g per pound of LBM. Zraw, in the bodybuilding forum, recommended 1.5g per pound.

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Also… you’re trying to recomp while weighing 126lbs?

Just stop thinking that way until you’ve put on at least a good 30-40 lbs (over a couple years of hard training). Thinking that way now is going to hurt your ability to get both bigger and stronger.

If anything, just gain slowly while you’re focusing on lower body rehab work + upper body work.

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[quote]IncredibleBulk9 wrote:
On my most recent 531 week I did:
Bench - 4 x 62.5kg
Press - 5 x 40kg
Most I did on legs, before I stopped SS (pretty low I know):
Deads - 5 x 80kg
Squats - 5 x 70kg[/quote]
Gotcha. I was just wondering about your general strength base.

Related side note, are you sure you’re running 5/3/1 properly? Are those numbers what you’re using on the big PR sets? If so, why are you only doing 4 or 5 reps (unless this the “1+” week)?

If something’s helped you correct the issue in the past, then definitely do it. Goblet squats would probably be the first weighted progression I’d move to, before going back to barbell back squats.

The key here is, by your own admission, you’re not “lean gaining.” You’re gaining a lot of fat. Either the total calories or macro breakdown are inappropriate, or both.

Like Rez said, if you are only training twice a week, your calorie intake should be the same as someone who trains 4 days a week.

Walk or dumbbell swing or Barbell/dumbbell complex. If you want to include some cardio, those are definite options.

I think doing a program that calls for an increasing volume of lunges every single day, while also trying to rehab your legs, is a lame idea. Pun intended.

Are you, though? Every day? “More than enough” is a very tricky statement, but my point was that, if you’re concerned about fat gain, carb-based snacks are not the way to go.

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The core of my training (the 531 sets and main lifts assistance) are going to remain broadly the same for a long time, I was just looking to vary some of the extra stuff. But I do see where you’re coming from.

It’s funny, for some reason I didn’t think of this even though it’s so obvious! I now realise that I shouldn’t be expecting such big weight gains until I start training lower body hard again. I think I must have been trying to gain weight too fast. I’ll focus on slower weight gain as you suggest.

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Those were the numbers I hit on my last 1+ week.

Thanks for the suggestion - I was going to go back to barbell squats but you’re right goblet squats would be the perfect progression once my knees feel better.

Yep, and I think it must be calories from what LoRez says, since to expect 0.5kg of growth a week on just upper body sounds way too high now that I think about it! My macros probably aren’t perfect either to be honest, I guess I will have to slowly experiment to figure out what works for me.

Would you be able to elaborate on any decent complexes (bearing in mind I train at home, and only have a power rack and weights, although I can do kettlebell style movements with my plates with handles). Do you mean normal walking, or farmers walks?

Lol, I’m not quite sure where the pun is coming from there. I’m only doing the pushup/pullup portion of it, doing lunges would be madness - I replaced them with band external rotations and abductions for legs, and my knees seem to love it.

Actually I get around 145g of whey/animal/egg protein. The rest is from grains/nuts it seems, which probably give me around 15-30g extra. So there’s probably days in which I get a little less.

Thanks again for the in depth responses btw - really appreciate it.

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[quote]IncredibleBulk9 wrote:
Those were the numbers I hit on my last 1+ week.[/quote]
Cool beans. Just wondering. Some guys read a snippet of the program online, or just see it called “5/3/1” and totally misinterpret how it should go.

There have been a few articles about complexes, like this one:

Basically, it’s 4-8 different exercises done back to back, without letting go of the weight (so obviously you’re using the same weight for everything). No rest between exercises, then drop the bar, rest a few minutes, and go for another round or two or three.

With a little brain power, you can figure out a handful of exercises even using just a plate instead of a barbell. That you can’t exactly squat is a bit of an obstacle, but it’s not insurmountable.

Plain old boring walking. 15-60 minutes a day, either before breakfast or right after lifting. But farmer’s would be an option too, if you can manage.

[quote]

Lol, I’m not quite sure where the pun is coming from there.[/quote]
Lame. As in, lame legs… lame idea. Meh, it wasn’t one of my greatest.

So you were thinking of doing PLP, without the L. Seems legit. But not really. I still don’t think there’d be any major benefit to trying to shoehorn 66% of the PLP plan into your current routine.

The overwhelming majority of lifters don’t count protein from foods that are predominantly-carbs or fats. Partly for the issue with tracking macros and partly because it’s rarely high-quality protein.

Your body doesn’t treat peanut protein the same as it treats egg protein. One is a double-jointed yoga instructor you’ve been dating for a year, the other is a crack whore working the corner. You can get head from either one, but you kinda know which is the better choice.

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Haha… Awesome!

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Idk about your knees, but here’s a simple program that can be done on 3 non-consecutive days a week that will build strength, power and mass in your whole body.

Power Clean and Push Press - 5x3 or 7x2
ATG High Bar Back Squat - 3x5
Pull-ups - 50 reps total or work on harder progressions like OACs
(Optional cardio) Hill Sprints

Now as far as getting bigger, you must eat big. Lots of meat and veggies and generally lower on the carbs unless you are doing a ton of hill sprints and you need the energy.