Simple Plan for Getting Lean?

Nutrition
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[quote]Destor wrote:

[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:

[quote]JLone wrote:

[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
Quote where I said calories need to be counted? All I said was that in order to lose weight, you need to be in a deficit of calories or that your calories need to be in line.

Did you take what I said personally? I’m sorry if I upset you. I didn’t even notice whether or not you made a post and wasn’t referring to you anyway. I was referring to Mr. Abz above who yes, I found very irritating.

I also purposefully didn’t mention IF because I’ve done it in the past and it has some serious limitations, especially for someone who trains in the early am.[/quote]
By saying a calorie deficit needs to take place you are implying that calories will need to be kept track of.[/quote]

Not everytime (IF as an example), however, anytime I lost weight, I must have been in a deficit of calories. I may have interjected less than respectful, but I needed anyone who was following the thread to question some of the previous posters (I have nothing but respect for many of them, Chris Colucci, Greg, steely, etc).

Also to answer Mr Abz question; sour cream, heavy whipping cream, eggs, cheese, pork, sausage, steak, nuts, peanut butter, fish etc. I honestly understand that you’ve found something where you’re making progress and can respect that, but I would ask you what carb sources you were relying upon in the past that you were fatter than you are right now?

[/quote]

Dude, 10 years of training. 8.5lbs per year, I’ve gained more than that so far and I’m 4" shorter and I started training 5 years later than you. Obviously progress will taper off as I add more muscle, but still.

If I look like shit in 8 more years of training, I’ll concede that my system here is garbage, but I don’t think you can fault my results so far.

I was doing 4L of homogenized milk daily on top of stuffing myself with other carbs. I’ll admit that I probably wasn’t eating the best sources (I was doing a lot of pasta on other peoples recommendations due to my low weight), but I think I’m making better progress now than I was eating that diet.[/quote]

You probably won’t be lifting anymore when you’re my age, but that’s neither here nor there. I also think it’s hilarious how you try to break weight gain into something that’s linear. It isn’t.

Your system is garbage, by far the worst for gaining mass and what results are you pointing to? You went from skinny fat to skinny fat with some abs and some pudge on your lower stomach. You think that progress is stellar for a beginner? Come on man…don’t set your standards so low. I see NO development, only abs, nothing else. If you want to continue wasting your time, by all means, it’s your life.

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[quote]Destor wrote:

[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:

[quote]JLone wrote:

[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
Quote where I said calories need to be counted? All I said was that in order to lose weight, you need to be in a deficit of calories or that your calories need to be in line.

Did you take what I said personally? I’m sorry if I upset you. I didn’t even notice whether or not you made a post and wasn’t referring to you anyway. I was referring to Mr. Abz above who yes, I found very irritating.

I also purposefully didn’t mention IF because I’ve done it in the past and it has some serious limitations, especially for someone who trains in the early am.[/quote]
By saying a calorie deficit needs to take place you are implying that calories will need to be kept track of.[/quote]

Not everytime (IF as an example), however, anytime I lost weight, I must have been in a deficit of calories. I may have interjected less than respectful, but I needed anyone who was following the thread to question some of the previous posters (I have nothing but respect for many of them, Chris Colucci, Greg, steely, etc).

Also to answer Mr Abz question; sour cream, heavy whipping cream, eggs, cheese, pork, sausage, steak, nuts, peanut butter, fish etc. I honestly understand that you’ve found something where you’re making progress and can respect that, but I would ask you what carb sources you were relying upon in the past that you were fatter than you are right now?

[/quote]

Dude, 10 years of training. 8.5lbs per year, I’ve gained more than that so far and I’m 4" shorter and I started training 5 years later than you. Obviously progress will taper off as I add more muscle, but still.

If I look like shit in 8 more years of training, I’ll concede that my system here is garbage, but I don’t think you can fault my results so far.

I was doing 4L of homogenized milk daily on top of stuffing myself with other carbs. I’ll admit that I probably wasn’t eating the best sources (I was doing a lot of pasta on other peoples recommendations due to my low weight), but I think I’m making better progress now than I was eating that diet.[/quote]

Also worth mentioning, I gained 45 lbs within the first 12 months I began training seriously, and that’s without knowing what I was doing, but I still knew to eat plenty of carbs.

On that note, I’m honestly impressed I’ve been arguing about whether or not carbs should be consumed while trying to gain mass so on that note, you’re lost. For your sake, I hope you reconsider what you’re doing, it’s so far less than optimal it’s sad.

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[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
You went from skinny fat to skinny fat with some abs and some pudge on your lower stomach. [/quote]

You’re basing that assertion on what, exactly? You have a picture of my starting point?

Just for fun, I’ll upload one of my first body shots. That is going from skinny fat to skinny fat with some abs, and no other progress? None at all?

You’re obviously interested in making this personal, and I’m not, so don’t bother.

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Sorry man, I WAS referring to that picture from your hub. I’m being subjective, not personal. That’s very slow progress for 2 years of work. It doesn’t have to be that slow.

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[quote]Destor wrote:

[quote]ColinD624 wrote:
Theres a healthy debate going here, a few cheap shots, par for the course around here I guess. I like the spirit in here so I’ll continue posting.

This little gem jumped out at me.

[quote]Destor wrote:
If you can eat 1,000 extra calories of fat every single day, sure, maybe you’ll gain bodyfat. Who can actually do that though? I’ve been working on gaining weight for almost 3 years now, I’m very good at force feeding myself and I know without a doubt that I could never accomplish that.
[/quote]

Are you telling me you couldnt eat a half jar of natty PB (which is about 90% fat) extra per day? I eat that while I’m looking in the fridge deciding what I am actually going to eat, takes me about 2 minutes.

There of course are different hormonal responses to specific macros, thats not up for debate. But the overwhelming majority of attribution of muscle/fat gain and loss comes from total calories consumed vs total calories expended.[/quote]

Okay okay, with liquid (or liquidy) calories it’s definitely much more doable. PB, Whipping Cream, Sour Cream, drinking straight up oil/fats, that would make it infinitely easier. I wasn’t even considering the liquid calories which is a blatant mistake on my part, i was only thinking about solid food, meat, nuts, etc.[/quote]

natty PB
liquidy
only thinking about solid food, nuts

Natural PB is the consistency of spackle, put it in the fridge and it’s cement. now I’m convinced you’re trolling. nice work

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With what? More carbs?

I eat 300-500gs of carbs on the weekend. I see no need for a constant high carb intake, I get my insulin just fine from meat and my glycogen on the weekends. I also know what my progress was like with more carbs, yes I weighed more, I was not however recovering as fast as I do now nor did it make any noticeable negative impact on my strength beyond dip during the adaptation from high-carb to high-fat.

Was my progress slow? Maybe, I’ve seen the logs of a 16 year old 6’ guy who went from 140lbs to a lean 200ish in 2 years. I haven’t seen many documented examples of guys who started in their mid-20s, as scrawny as I was, making huge gains like that. If you know of some I would appreciate some insight.

The way I see it though, if my rate of growth even slightly keeps up over the years I see no reason that I wouldn’t have a great physique in 8 more years. I did not say that growth was linear btw, I specifically stated that growth tapers off significantly as you add more muscle, I’m very aware of that. Am I even close to that point? If I’ve made as little progress as you say I have, obviously not!

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Destor, dude, I think what’s going on is a communication breakdown and a bunch of cheap shots all around. Look man, I was JUST like you before. I even did a CKD in hopes of progressing while staying leaner.

I’ll explain what I went through and what I"m doing now.

  • I started training with CrossFit and various other stupid shit in terms of BBing.

  • I didn’t like the amount of fat I THOUGHT I had, so I V-Dieted.

  • I was 6’3 and 173 pounds after the V-Diet

  • I spun my wheels for another few months

  • I PM’ed everybody on T Nation with typical newb bullshit until they all got fed up and told me to STFU essentially

  • I decided to ‘bulk’ on high carbs, and I gained too much fat. As in I got a round face, bloated, etc…I jumped ship and went for a cut

  • I got pretty lean, but was not able to get as lean as I wanted. You HAVE to have enough muscle if you ever want to look half decent when very lean

  • I decided to be smart and gain. Not a ‘bulkathon’ in which I stupidly eat EVERYTHING, but a controlled plan of attack to make size/weight increases.

Now, let me describe what has worked SO WELL for me and still does -

I do NOT count exact macros. I pretty much eat the same thing every day out of convenience and $ issues. So I have a general idea of how much I’m getting. I make sure to eat AT LEAST that much every day. I follow a few principles as well. I try to eat more carbs around the workout, but if my schedule sucks for the day, so be it. I also try to cut off carbs from my last meal, but if I’m on a date or with friends or whateer, then I have a burrito or a burger. No biggie. Also, I tend to go low carb on off days. It’s easy. Just PB/whey/coconut oil shakes all day and maybe a salad for dinner. I also have one scheduled ‘cheat meal’ a week, in which I usually eat a whole LIttle Ceasar’s pizza and a pint or more of ice cream.

Now, I have gained a ton of muscle over the past few months using these methods, and have recently switched over to the ‘Mountain Dog’ style of eating out of curiosity. But all these guys are trying to tell you is that you seem to be attached to the idea that you are doing it right. If I’ve learned anything, it’s that these guys know more. If you ever want to look like you lift, and not just look like you have ‘big arms’ to some schmuck in your office, you’re going to have to drop the “I wanna be lean” thing and put in the work. We all have/do, at least those of us who WANT to make progress.

And the reason people come off as harsh is 1) people on the internet are dicks 2) There have been a TRILLION newbs who make similar threads and tell the vets how it’s done. Come on man, guys like DaVinci have been around the block. I’ve seen pics of that dude ripped to shreads with monster quads and tore up abs. He knows what he’s talking about, and by your own admission you’re new to this. Just drop the ego that you know best and do what this site is meant to do - LEARN FROM THOSE WITH MORE EXPERIENCE… you might just hear something that sticks.

68

And my current diet on training days, if all goes well and it’s convenient:

Meal 1 - 2 scoops whey, 1 tbsp Virgin Coconut Oil (VCO), 1 cups oats (shake); 200 mg ALA
Meal 2 - (post training) 2 cups oats, 2 scoops whey (big bowl); 400 mg ALA
Meal 3 - 2 scoops whey, 1 tbsp VCO, 1 cup oats; 200 mg ALA
Meal 4 - 6 whole free range eggs cooked in 1/2 tbsp VCO, 3 slices cinnamon raisin ezekiel break, 1 banana; 200 mg ALA
Meal 5 - 6 whole free range eggs cooked in 1/2 tbsp VCO, 1 serving sunflower seeds

That’s a typical day of eating for me. Probably like 3,500ish kcals, 350g carbs, 150g fat, 275g protein. I have shakes for convenience, and I generally stick to this.

But lately I’ve been eating a bit too much PB before bed lol.

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Oh, and lastly. You mentioned how incredible DaVinci’s progress was/is. Maybe sarcastically. But either way.

I try to set short term goals that I believe are almost impossible/bordering on ridiculous. For instance, I want to add a shit ton of weight to my front squat by the end of this year. Now, I know logically that it will be almost IMPOSSIBLE to go from 210 x 4 (current, weak, whatever) to 275 x 5 by end of year at current rate, etc.

But instead of setting baby goals, I simply make those goals reality. I can’t control a lot of things in my life, but my stubbornness MAKES ME attain my lifting goals. I will not give up until I make that shit happen. I will either fail and drop the weight or hit a PR every time I’m in the weight room. That’s not advisable for more advanced guys like many of the posters in this forum, but for guys like me, it’s the quickest way to progress. You mentioned guys going from weak to huge in relatively short time. Look at DeltaOne as an example.

I’ve had many private talks with him via email, and the thing he mentioned is just that. You simply make your goals come to life. or listen to GeoLeeman on Youtube. Specifically his “Late Night Rambling.” The only difference between me making progress and the other dipshits at my gym who look the same year after year is that when I’m in the gym, I find a way to make PRs NO MATTER WHAT.

The only thing that limits your progress is you. Stop counting calories, stop arguing with vets on the internet, stop your stubborn attitude, and get swole would be my advice hahja. But seriously. And also read DeltaOne’s Log - the first one. You’ll see how he went from normal to Godlike in a matter or months. REad the WHOLE THING then come back with your facts and golden rules lol.

Until then, either listen to the people who are better than you or don’t post here. Capish?

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^I really hope you didn’t waste all that energy on a troll, Hiss. Too much good intention there to be wasted.

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[quote]Destor wrote:

[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
You went from skinny fat to skinny fat with some abs and some pudge on your lower stomach. [/quote]

You’re basing that assertion on what, exactly? You have a picture of my starting point?

Just for fun, I’ll upload one of my first body shots. That is going from skinny fat to skinny fat with some abs, and no other progress? None at all?

You’re obviously interested in making this personal, and I’m not, so don’t bother.[/quote]

I’ll tell you what. Post a picture of yourself relaxed, against a white background with a real camera and the flash turned on to remove any shadows. You have all the shadows in the world and are clearly flexing the hell out of your abs in your avi. Show us what you really look like and don’t hide behind an idealization. I know…we all like to do that with our avis…but you gotta post what you really look like…then you can start being honest with yourself. Hell, in the right kind of lighting and right angle and right flexing I might be able to convince y’all I have visible abs atm…lol.

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[quote]Destor wrote:
With what? More carbs?

I eat 300-500gs of carbs on the weekend. I see no need for a constant high carb intake, I get my insulin just fine from meat and my glycogen on the weekends. I also know what my progress was like with more carbs, yes I weighed more, I was not however recovering as fast as I do now nor did it make any noticeable negative impact on my strength beyond dip during the adaptation from high-carb to high-fat.

Was my progress slow? Maybe, I’ve seen the logs of a 16 year old 6’ guy who went from 140lbs to a lean 200ish in 2 years. I haven’t seen many documented examples of guys who started in their mid-20s, as scrawny as I was, making huge gains like that. If you know of some I would appreciate some insight.

The way I see it though, if my rate of growth even slightly keeps up over the years I see no reason that I wouldn’t have a great physique in 8 more years. I did not say that growth was linear btw, I specifically stated that growth tapers off significantly as you add more muscle, I’m very aware of that. Am I even close to that point? If I’ve made as little progress as you say I have, obviously not![/quote]

Jesus christ…I’m trying to give you insight. At the VERY least you should be getting carbs around your workouts man. If you want to be cyclic with your carbs, that’s fine, but do it intelligently. Go ahead and go low/zero carb on off days, but on days that you lift, get your carbs in at the very least around your workouts.

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[quote]hlss09 wrote:
Oh, and lastly. You mentioned how incredible DaVinci’s progress was/is. Maybe sarcastically. But either way.

I try to set short term goals that I believe are almost impossible/bordering on ridiculous. For instance, I want to add a shit ton of weight to my front squat by the end of this year. Now, I know logically that it will be almost IMPOSSIBLE to go from 210 x 4 (current, weak, whatever) to 275 x 5 by end of year at current rate, etc.

But instead of setting baby goals, I simply make those goals reality. I can’t control a lot of things in my life, but my stubbornness MAKES ME attain my lifting goals. I will not give up until I make that shit happen. I will either fail and drop the weight or hit a PR every time I’m in the weight room. That’s not advisable for more advanced guys like many of the posters in this forum, but for guys like me, it’s the quickest way to progress. You mentioned guys going from weak to huge in relatively short time. Look at DeltaOne as an example.

I’ve had many private talks with him via email, and the thing he mentioned is just that. You simply make your goals come to life. or listen to GeoLeeman on Youtube. Specifically his “Late Night Rambling.” The only difference between me making progress and the other dipshits at my gym who look the same year after year is that when I’m in the gym, I find a way to make PRs NO MATTER WHAT.

The only thing that limits your progress is you. Stop counting calories, stop arguing with vets on the internet, stop your stubborn attitude, and get swole would be my advice hahja. But seriously. And also read DeltaOne’s Log - the first one. You’ll see how he went from normal to Godlike in a matter or months. REad the WHOLE THING then come back with your facts and golden rules lol.

Until then, either listen to the people who are better than you or don’t post here. Capish? [/quote]

I have a lot of respect for the amount of experience, and I’m definitely not arguing that these guys don’t know their shit like the back of their hand! I’m not quite convinced that it’s the only way to do it, but hey I could be wrong!

DeltaOne is a beast, but if I’m reading his log correctly he was 18 years old and 180ish lbs @ 5’9 when he started? Or I may be looking at the wrong log, because that seems pretty big to just be starting out.

Either way, the dude was probably still going through puberty when he started. I was 24 and 115lbs when I began training, way past the best growth stages. Muscle hypertrophy happens at a much faster rate when you’re in puberty, there are tons of examples of teen guys out there who have gone from scrawny to ripped in absolutely no time.

I’m not trying to be a dick here, but if you guys can show me someone who started when they were at least 24 years old, with absolutely no muscle mass, making those kinds of gains that quickly (and naturally), I will honestly re-evaluate my methods.

I’ve never seen anyone add muscle that quickly in their mid-20s, most people already have a good deal of mass by that time. A big part of why I don’t do high-carb and why I’m happy with my growth so far is because I really don’t think it’s possible to make hypertrophy gains like that at my age. I’ve done high-carb, I’ve done GOMAD, I even did mass fruit bulking when I tried Paleo.

All of them made me gain weight, none of them seemed to increase my hypertrophy rates at all compared to what I’m seeing now. Maybe I just didn’t give it a long enough of a try, maybe I just wasn’t lifting hard enough…

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i cant believe this discussion is still going on - lol

entertaining stuff though, carry on guys

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[quote]dre1986 wrote:
i cant believe this discussion is still going on
[/quote]

Bingo, let the kid believe what he wants.

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[quote]jskrabac wrote:
^I really hope you didn’t waste all that energy on a troll, Hiss. Too much good intention there to be wasted. [/quote]

I try to help out when I can…

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I would love to believe that I can make much much faster progress than I am now, and if someone can show me an example of a mid-20s guy doing that naturally I will admit defeat and likely up my carb intake.

Trying to compare my progress to that of an 18 or 19 year old is ridiculous though. It is very well documented that puberty has a huge impact on muscle hypertrophy rates, teenagers can achieve huge muscle gains very quickly.

The only thing that seems to come fast for me @ 26 years old is body fat and glycogen. It’s not like I already have the mass and just need to cut and maybe add a little bit more, I was skin and bones and way past the muscle building prime!

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[quote]Destor wrote:
I would love to believe that I can make much much faster progress than I am now, and if someone can show me an example of a mid-20s guy doing that naturally I will admit defeat and likely up my carb intake.

Trying to compare my progress to that of an 18 or 19 year old is ridiculous though. It is very well documented that puberty has a huge impact on muscle hypertrophy rates, teenagers can achieve huge muscle gains very quickly.

The only thing that seems to come fast for me @ 26 years old is body fat and glycogen. It’s not like I already have the mass and just need to cut and maybe add a little bit more, I was skin and bones and way past the muscle building prime![/quote]

Listen, I’m naturally a dick, but I am trying to help you. I have known countless people who have made the most progress while starting in their mid 20’s. All arrogance and dick headedness aside, what did you do in the past with your diet, WHILE using carbs that didn’t seem to work for you?

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26 ain’t old my friend. For guys that got a late start - MarauderMeat, SteelyD, etc. You’re not 48, you’re 26. Stop acting like you’re a victim of circumstance. Grab life by the horns and hump it into submission

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[quote]hlss09 wrote:
26 ain’t old my friend. For guys that got a late start - MarauderMeat, SteelyD, etc. You’re not 48, you’re 26. Stop acting like you’re a victim of circumstance. Grab life by the horns and hump it into submission [/quote]

SteelyD is 265lbs at my height after 4 years of training. You’re trying to tell me that he added 130lbs in <4 years in his mid-20s? No way, I’ll bet anything that he was already a huge guy before he even started training. Same with MarauderMeat, these guys were obviously not a buck & change in their mid 20s, maybe they were when they were 12… They had the mass to begin with, I didnt.

These arent excuses, they are biological facts. I bust my ass every single day trying to lift consistently and progressively overloading, on top of stuffing myself. The fact is that I will never achieve the hypertrophy gains that an 18 year old can, not without some serious hormonal help. That’s not stopping me, I’ll reach my goals, it is just going to take a long ass time unless I want to start juicing to get my hormone levels up to those of a teenager.