Silva vs. Belfort

Training
141

I think it would be sad to bastardize these two fighters (Silva and GSP) and have them slug it out. If GSP goes up, he will have issues with his mechanics. It wouldn’t be a perfect day at the office but his work ethic and team are both excellent and they could very well be the spanner in the works. On the other hand, Silva could actually step it up a notch and be excited to fight someone that he thinks has a serious chance against him. This could see him come in more focussed, more serious and even deadlier.

Who knows, it’s speculation at this point with two such high caliber fighters. I think if they wanted to slug it out on their feet, Silva would have the edge. Even with takedowns, he is a little too savy, fast, evasive and again his footwork is supreme but plenty more has been said about others who come from wrestling backgrounds and GSP had zero difficulty executing takedowns. Again, GSP ‘commits’ to takedowns which is what many wrestlers despite being great wrestlers stop doing when they come to MMA.

Urban, umm… don’t know what else you want to hear about the dutch style but feel free.

142

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
humble, I enjoyed your posts about Dutch style kickboxing as opposed to the training done in Thailand. I’d be interested in hearing more about it.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
If you look closely at the physicality of a GSP/Silva match it makes no sense at all. GSP is 5’ 10" and Silva 6’ 2". Look at the bone structure each is fair to good size for their weight. The only chance that GSP has is if they fight at a catch weight below what Silva is used to fighting at. Then GSP will be the guy who is able to eat and train without sucking any weight and Silva will be in a position to have to drop additional weight beyond the 185lbs. Other than that GSP has absolutely no chance of beating Silva. And GSP is one of my favorite fighters and Silva is going away my least favorite, but facts are facts.

GSP will have a very hard time taking him down and then actually holding him down. And GSP has ZERO chance in a striking war based on reach alone. This fight is one of the most stupid match ups of all time. Fans want to see it because many of them don’t really understand mma. But I’m sure GSP will jump to take the fight based on what Dana White has promised to pay him. I heard it was in the neighborhood of 3 million (sure that could be bull).

If this is true which one of us would not take a beating for 3 million?[/quote]

Facts are facts? Based on this post, you’re the one who doesn’t understand MMA.

The fact that Silva is 6’2" and has a reach advantage won’t matter much when he spends the entire fight on his back. You’re delusional if you think GSP will have a “very hard time” taking Anderson down, he’s the best wrestler in MMA. If he wants you down, you’re getting taken down. Anderson has weak wrestling and the only shots he can stuff are the ones attempted by BJJ fighters that shoot with no set-up like Maia and Leites.

For every flashy strike Anderson lands, he throws plenty more that do nothing but put him in a vulnerable position. Against Vitor, Silva ended up slammed against the mat when they clinched up. You think he would have stood up as if that had never happened had he been fighting GSP? He wouldn’t, that would have been all GSP needed to take that round. There’s no reason at all to believe that GSP would be anything other than completely dominant over Silva. [/quote]

I agree that GSP will more than likely take this fight down, but length can be a factor on the ground too, especially when there is a significance difference like we see here. Silva has 4 inches on GSP, so if anything he’ll need to be sparring guys like Jones to get used to it. Anderson will also likely have a strength advantage, and may be inclined to use it (see GSP vs Alves. It may not look quite like that though).
Also, if and when Silva gets up, we know he could rock, or KO GSP with a single shot. He’s the best striker in MMA. So yes, if the fight goes to a decision, GSP will probably be the winner. A finish would probably go to Anderson.

143

[quote]humble wrote:

Urban, umm… don’t know what else you want to hear about the dutch style but feel free.

[/quote]

I’d just never heard that before about how fighters from Thailand are lazier and how Dutch fighters put 100% power into every strike. It makes sense the more that I think about it though. I love watching old Ramon Dekkers fights, he’d always try to finish with every punch he threw. In most fights I’ve seen from Thailand, the first round is completely a “feeling out” round. Even after that, a large percentage of the strikes thrown are at half power to try and get the timing and distance down.

You were naming specific Dutch MT gyms, so I just figured that you had more information to offer on the subject.

144

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:
humble, I enjoyed your posts about Dutch style kickboxing as opposed to the training done in Thailand. I’d be interested in hearing more about it.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
If you look closely at the physicality of a GSP/Silva match it makes no sense at all. GSP is 5’ 10" and Silva 6’ 2". Look at the bone structure each is fair to good size for their weight. The only chance that GSP has is if they fight at a catch weight below what Silva is used to fighting at. Then GSP will be the guy who is able to eat and train without sucking any weight and Silva will be in a position to have to drop additional weight beyond the 185lbs. Other than that GSP has absolutely no chance of beating Silva. And GSP is one of my favorite fighters and Silva is going away my least favorite, but facts are facts.

GSP will have a very hard time taking him down and then actually holding him down. And GSP has ZERO chance in a striking war based on reach alone. This fight is one of the most stupid match ups of all time. Fans want to see it because many of them don’t really understand mma. But I’m sure GSP will jump to take the fight based on what Dana White has promised to pay him. I heard it was in the neighborhood of 3 million (sure that could be bull).

If this is true which one of us would not take a beating for 3 million?[/quote]

Facts are facts? Based on this post, you’re the one who doesn’t understand MMA.

The fact that Silva is 6’2" and has a reach advantage won’t matter much when he spends the entire fight on his back. You’re delusional if you think GSP will have a “very hard time” taking Anderson down, he’s the best wrestler in MMA. If he wants you down, you’re getting taken down. Anderson has weak wrestling and the only shots he can stuff are the ones attempted by BJJ fighters that shoot with no set-up like Maia and Leites.

For every flashy strike Anderson lands, he throws plenty more that do nothing but put him in a vulnerable position. Against Vitor, Silva ended up slammed against the mat when they clinched up. You think he would have stood up as if that had never happened had he been fighting GSP? He wouldn’t, that would have been all GSP needed to take that round. There’s no reason at all to believe that GSP would be anything other than completely dominant over Silva. [/quote]

I agree that GSP will more than likely take this fight down, but length can be a factor on the ground too, especially when there is a significance difference like we see here. Silva has 4 inches on GSP, so if anything he’ll need to be sparring guys like Jones to get used to it. Anderson will also likely have a strength advantage, and may be inclined to use it (see GSP vs Alves. It may not look quite like that though).
Also, if and when Silva gets up, we know he could rock, or KO GSP with a single shot. He’s the best striker in MMA. So yes, if the fight goes to a decision, GSP will probably be the winner. A finish would probably go to Anderson.[/quote]

There are two factors that make me say Silva takes it.

A.) Size. He is the longer and heavier fighter. I know GSP supposedly out wrestles light-heavies in training, but I don’t know if it will happen for 5 rounds. The added length on the ground makes me think Silva will have a much better chance of threatening submissions from the bottom or elbowing GSP and forcing enough space to stand up. I know plenty of powerful grapplers who are stocky and can do a huge amount of damage from inside the guard (I am thinking Fedor as the ultimate here) but it has been a while since we have seen GSP do any serious ground and pound against someone who was his height or taller (he tuned up BJ and Serra, but they are both much shorter). On the feet Silva’s range and use of angles means GSP likely will not be as capable of setting up his double leg, which is in my opinion the best in MMA currently (even over Randleman).

B.) The clinch. GSP’s wrestling and size have let him smother and press up against the cage fighters who wound him standing. This is not new. It is how he decisioned BJ the first time. In this case he would be putting himself at risk of Silva’s knees. I know Couture has made a career out of smothering taller fighters so it can be done, but I see a risk of GSP eating too many knees. I like GSP and am a fan, but clinching puts him at serious risk of winding up in Silva’s collar tie where Silva’s skill set and size are both advantages.

145

[quote]Robert A wrote:
and I would like to see Bisbing get his shot at Silva. I don’t think either challenger has a great chance, but they deserve their shots.
[/quote]

WHAT? BISPING? Tell me you’re joking.

146

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
and I would like to see Bisbing get his shot at Silva. I don’t think either challenger has a great chance, but they deserve their shots.
[/quote]

WHAT? BISPING? Tell me you’re joking.[/quote]

He must hate Bisping to feed him to Silva.

147

Silva has been quoted as wanting to fight Bisping…on UK soil of course…lol. I don’t see that happening anytime soon. Dana hypes Bisping…but yet they’re not stepping up his competition. Reason being(imo),is Bisping being DFW’s English cash cow/hype tool for that market.

He’s had 13-14 fights in UFC. He’s been at MW for a bit,and no fights against the echelon of 185 outside of Henderson…? Come on Dana and Joe Silva…people want to see him get smashed…lol. Give him a title shot…hehe. Not like there’s much of anyone else lest other than Okami for Silva.

148

Poor Yushin Okami.

149

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
and I would like to see Bisbing get his shot at Silva. I don’t think either challenger has a great chance, but they deserve their shots.
[/quote]

WHAT? BISPING? Tell me you’re joking.[/quote]

He must hate Bisping to feed him to Silva.[/quote]

The Banana nailed it, I do not care for Bisbing. I also think that they have padded his record enough that it is now either admit he is a paper tiger (he is 10-3 in the UFC and 20-3 total) or let him rise to the occasion. In reality I want to see him get thumped.

Okami (3-1 since start of '09) is my second choice for the 185 shot, but for whatever reason the UFC has decided Silva vs Okami isn’t marketable, where Bisbing always is. My real dream was to have Bisbing and Sonnen coach on TUF just for the shit talking and attention whoring. I don’t care that Sonnen is suspended, they could settle the season with a Monopoly game for all I care.

150

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:

Urban, umm… don’t know what else you want to hear about the dutch style but feel free.

[/quote]

I’d just never heard that before about how fighters from Thailand are lazier and how Dutch fighters put 100% power into every strike. It makes sense the more that I think about it though. I love watching old Ramon Dekkers fights, he’d always try to finish with every punch he threw. In most fights I’ve seen from Thailand, the first round is completely a “feeling out” round. Even after that, a large percentage of the strikes thrown are at half power to try and get the timing and distance down.

You were naming specific Dutch MT gyms, so I just figured that you had more information to offer on the subject.[/quote]

Basically you have the two I mentioned and also Mikes Gym where the likes of Badr Hari, Melvin Manhoef train out of. Alister Overeem, is between corr hemmers and other gyms. The dutch guys are really laid back about working with each other but the attitude stems across Holland. Train 100% output. Even sparing is above 85%. They spar hard to replicate fight situations. You cannot transfer over your fighting, ie punching and kicking into a fight if you’re lazing around in sparring. Their philosophies and training style is as such. The whole mechanics of a fight change not to mention the emotional-spiritual and physiological side of things. The closer you can replicate a fight in training the better. Sparring at 60% or 70% does not stimulate the physiological processes enough to work properly in a fight. Conditioning training as crazy as it may be cannot and will never move a fighter into the territory of a fight. Even the Russians train this way, at near 100%. Watch many of their sambo, boxing and mma guys train and they really spar very hard.
You’ll even notice this with the eastern bloc countries and their approach to Olympic lifting. This is why they were able to shift the way the world trained. They pushed closer to the limit and were able to transfer over the results.

Physiological systems develop optimally, your confidence develops and your ability to transfer it all into the ring develops.

You’re right, the Thais have a feeling out process but it is mostly done because of the situation there money wise and gambling wise. Lately, the Yodsanklai’s and Buakaws have changed the attitude when they come over to japan or western countries to fight. You don’t see them feeling out and they pretty much bang from the minute go.

I’m not writing off the Thai’s, I just don’t agree with their ideas completely. Hours and hours of training is useful for motor pathway development but for fight purposes, it is largely a waste. Westerners also have different climates, physiology and adaptation to stimulus so it’s rather odd we think we can just head to Thailand, change our climate, diet and lifestyle and expect to train the way they do.

151

[quote]humble wrote:

Basically you have the two I mentioned and also Mikes Gym where the likes of Badr Hari, Melvin Manhoef train out of. Alister Overeem, is between corr hemmers and other gyms. The dutch guys are really laid back about working with each other but the attitude stems across Holland. Train 100% output. Even sparing is above 85%. They spar hard to replicate fight situations. You cannot transfer over your fighting, ie punching and kicking into a fight if you’re lazing around in sparring. Their philosophies and training style is as such. The whole mechanics of a fight change not to mention the emotional-spiritual and physiological side of things. The closer you can replicate a fight in training the better. Sparring at 60% or 70% does not stimulate the physiological processes enough to work properly in a fight. Conditioning training as crazy as it may be cannot and will never move a fighter into the territory of a fight. Even the Russians train this way, at near 100%. Watch many of their sambo, boxing and mma guys train and they really spar very hard.
You’ll even notice this with the eastern bloc countries and their approach to Olympic lifting. This is why they were able to shift the way the world trained. They pushed closer to the limit and were able to transfer over the results.

Physiological systems develop optimally, your confidence develops and your ability to transfer it all into the ring develops.

You’re right, the Thais have a feeling out process but it is mostly done because of the situation there money wise and gambling wise. Lately, the Yodsanklai’s and Buakaws have changed the attitude when they come over to japan or western countries to fight. You don’t see them feeling out and they pretty much bang from the minute go.

I’m not writing off the Thai’s, I just don’t agree with their ideas completely. Hours and hours of training is useful for motor pathway development but for fight purposes, it is largely a waste. Westerners also have different climates, physiology and adaptation to stimulus so it’s rather odd we think we can just head to Thailand, change our climate, diet and lifestyle and expect to train the way they do.

[/quote]

I’ve noticed that they do far more work on the Thai pads and focus in mitts in Thailand. I’ve heard that the major differences between the Thais and the Dutch are due to the scoring in Thailand. Their scoring places higher emphasis on body kicks, head kicks and knees to the extent that if you’re going to be relying on your punching/boxing (like Ramon Dekkers) then you’re basically going to have to knock your opponent out. The evolution of the Dutch style makes sense, considering this. They have to throw each punch with the goal of finishing, and they don’t have time for any “feeling out” kicks.

I watched an hour+ long documentary yesterday about Overeem’s training leading up to last year’s K-1 GP final. It’s as free on Overeem’s site and can be found on youtube. It was supposed to show his training leading up to a potential Fedor fight, but when Fedor lost to Werdum it was changed to make the K-1 tournament the emphasis of the documentary. It showed him training in the Cor Hemmers gym as well as in several other gyms. The quality of the documentary is surprisingly impressive. There’s also an hour long interview with Overeem on youtube done by Schiavello. After watching both of these, I have a whole new appreciation for Overeem and Dutch striking in general. If Overeem stays as focused as he currently is and remains injury free, I don’t see him being beaten any time soon. I just wish he’d go on hiatus from K-1 long enough to make a run at the UFC belt.

152

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:

I’ve noticed that they do far more work on the Thai pads and focus in mitts in Thailand. I’ve heard that the major differences between the Thais and the Dutch are due to the scoring in Thailand. Their scoring places higher emphasis on body kicks, head kicks and knees to the extent that if you’re going to be relying on your punching/boxing (like Ramon Dekkers) then you’re basically going to have to knock your opponent out. The evolution of the Dutch style makes sense, considering this. They have to throw each punch with the goal of finishing, and they don’t have time for any “feeling out” kicks.

I watched an hour+ long documentary yesterday about Overeem’s training leading up to last year’s K-1 GP final. It’s as free on Overeem’s site and can be found on youtube. It was supposed to show his training leading up to a potential Fedor fight, but when Fedor lost to Werdum it was changed to make the K-1 tournament the emphasis of the documentary. It showed him training in the Cor Hemmers gym as well as in several other gyms. The quality of the documentary is surprisingly impressive. There’s also an hour long interview with Overeem on youtube done by Schiavello. After watching both of these, I have a whole new appreciation for Overeem and Dutch striking in general. If Overeem stays as focused as he currently is and remains injury free, I don’t see him being beaten any time soon. I just wish he’d go on hiatus from K-1 long enough to make a run at the UFC belt. [/quote]

Yes again, you’re right. It is also to do with the scoring system there but a knock out is a knock out and if the thai’s trained for this and fought like this, their gambling scene would take a major blow.

That doco on Overeem is really well made and shows you a little about how hard they train. The other impressive and very practical thing they do is live drills on each other. You will see them for instance practice a myriad of combo’s on each others gloves and bodies and take turns. This provides a live target and a real feel for the body as opposed to a heavy bag. It also takes into account proper distancing, foot work and adjustment of both to be able to absorb the strikes and give them appropriately.
Another to watch and appreciate is Ghokan Saki… absolute nutter and throws 150% into every punch and Kick. Pity about his size as that would be the only limiting factor holding him from winning a K1. His balls and power though are more than enough. His fight against Ghita was one of the best every in K1 history.
If MMA can adapt this brutal style of striking, then it will have much more respect from the whole fight world.

153

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]UrbanSavage wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:

Urban, umm… don’t know what else you want to hear about the dutch style but feel free.

[/quote]

I’d just never heard that before about how fighters from Thailand are lazier and how Dutch fighters put 100% power into every strike. It makes sense the more that I think about it though. I love watching old Ramon Dekkers fights, he’d always try to finish with every punch he threw. In most fights I’ve seen from Thailand, the first round is completely a “feeling out” round. Even after that, a large percentage of the strikes thrown are at half power to try and get the timing and distance down.

You were naming specific Dutch MT gyms, so I just figured that you had more information to offer on the subject.[/quote]

Basically you have the two I mentioned and also Mikes Gym where the likes of Badr Hari, Melvin Manhoef train out of. Alister Overeem, is between corr hemmers and other gyms. The dutch guys are really laid back about working with each other but the attitude stems across Holland. Train 100% output. Even sparing is above 85%. They spar hard to replicate fight situations. You cannot transfer over your fighting, ie punching and kicking into a fight if you’re lazing around in sparring. Their philosophies and training style is as such. The whole mechanics of a fight change not to mention the emotional-spiritual and physiological side of things. The closer you can replicate a fight in training the better. Sparring at 60% or 70% does not stimulate the physiological processes enough to work properly in a fight. Conditioning training as crazy as it may be cannot and will never move a fighter into the territory of a fight. Even the Russians train this way, at near 100%. Watch many of their sambo, boxing and mma guys train and they really spar very hard.
You’ll even notice this with the eastern bloc countries and their approach to Olympic lifting. This is why they were able to shift the way the world trained. They pushed closer to the limit and were able to transfer over the results.

Physiological systems develop optimally, your confidence develops and your ability to transfer it all into the ring develops.

You’re right, the Thais have a feeling out process but it is mostly done because of the situation there money wise and gambling wise. Lately, the Yodsanklai’s and Buakaws have changed the attitude when they come over to japan or western countries to fight. You don’t see them feeling out and they pretty much bang from the minute go.

I’m not writing off the Thai’s, I just don’t agree with their ideas completely. Hours and hours of training is useful for motor pathway development but for fight purposes, it is largely a waste. Westerners also have different climates, physiology and adaptation to stimulus so it’s rather odd we think we can just head to Thailand, change our climate, diet and lifestyle and expect to train the way they do.

[/quote]

Hey Humble, how does the feeling out process in Thai effect money and gambling?
Also, wouldn’t sparring above 85% all the time be detrimental to a top fighters longevity? I’ve heard different arguments about this.

I had a boxing coach who was a professional and he told me if you ever went to Philadelphia to spar, you’d better be prepared to fight. You’d have a hard time working on your weaknesses when someone’s trying to KO you.

154

fnf, if the fighter is known to be able to knock out his opponents then it makes the betting more predictable. The Thai’s know this and since the gambling is part and parcel part of the fight culture being as unpredictable as possible would be better for their odds.
Both fighters then go in just playing around, extending the fight as much as possible to extend the moment and keep crowds anticipated and betting. Then you have fighters like Anuwat who just don’t give a damn and have managed with his honest approach to fighting and his huge knock out power become one of the highest paid if not highest paid fighters in Thailand.
It’s part of their culture, their underground scene and part of the way they survive. The feel out process has just become part of the etiquette’s of the sport in Thailand I guess.

155

Does anyone else think Anderson’s toughest test would be a Gegard Mousasi matchup.