Sig and Teddy - Shoulder injury

Sig and Teddy, I took your advice and bought some Glucosamine Sulfate and Chondroitin. I’m hoping it starts working soon. I have also contacted a good massage therapist in town and am getting regular treatments.

A friend of mine is a personal trainer and also gave me some advice regarding training. He said to stick to dumbbells for chest work and to stop doing any overhead pressing. I’ve trained with him before, and he’s very good. His techniques are very similar to Poliquin and King.

I just wanted to thank you for the help. I hope this helps. I did a chest/back workout today, and my shoulders are killing me right now! I should probably go and ice them down. You guys have anymore advice? By the way, will you be at the Seminar in Orlando?

I’m finding out that a lot of my shoulder problems are being exacerbated by my sleeping habits. I sleep on my sides and sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night with pain in the same spot it get while bench pressing.

If its worth a try, search for someone who does ART (Active Release Technique). It was discussed in a previous article here and on an ABC news show.

Unfortunately I won’t be in Orlando. I just moved to a new city and started a new job so it’s not really the best time to ask for a couple days off. I won’t miss the next one though that’s for sure. I hope the glucosamine works for you. It usually takes 4-6 wks. to see anything although some of my former customers say it works quicker, though I would attribute this to a placebo effect more than anything. As far as training I’m hesitant to recommend anything specific but make sure you get some work in for the ext. rotators and your rear delts to prevent imbalances. Good luck!

N Dogg you may want to look into Mauro Di Pasquale’s All Pro Joint Support(he told me you have to give it about 45 days), supposedly Poliquin’s got his athletes on it.
Also you may want to check out Paul"encyclopedia" Chek’s website as far as rehabing.
Theres a good massage school in G-ville for affordable sessions from students ,its not ART but consistant work and corrective exercise might help,good luck .

Hey bud.
I have no idea what caused your shoulder to get all messed up, but perhaps it’s a problem with under-developed or weak external rotators not being able to keep the shoulder joint properly supported and in place.
Maybe you could work on them a little to get better shoulder joint integrity (is that the right word… you know what I mean damnit! [grin])

Hey what kind of pain do you have? Is it in the front of the shoulder, top? When exactly does it hurt, when you bench, overhead press? I had a really bad shoulder injury. I had them cured thru an A.R.T dude. That technique is really amazing, albeit really painful. I passed out after ten minutes. I mean out! I can now bench and sleep on my side. It does depend on what kind of pain you have. It has to be a problem with the soft tissue. Like tendons or the muscle. Wuz up?

Dave, I also have problems with sleeping now. I usually sleep on my side. And since the injuries, I tend to wake up with extremely sore shoulders. I was told to sleep on my back, and I’m trying to train myself to do that. But everytime I wake up, I’m on my side.

As for my injuries, I was being treated for biceps tendonitis in my right shoulder. I had this done during October, Novemeber and the beginning of December. This occurred as a result of benching. And it has been something I’ve had for the past six years. I just happened to have it looked at because I also had tendonitis in my knee. So I had the PT work on both problems. Unfortunately, my health insurance only gave me so many visits.

As for the other shoulder, I suffered a slight separation while mountain biking in December. That is the one that hurts the most when I wake up in the morning. Otherwise it’s not too bad. But it does hurt when doing any type of rowing movement. After benching, I have more pain in the other shoulder.

And yes, I live in Gainesville, by the University of Florida. So there are plenty of massage therapists in town. I’m going to someone that is a little more expensive, but I’ve worked a deal so that I pay $45 for an hour. She’s pretty good, and she was recommended.

While going through PT I did work on my rotators more so. The PT said my external rotators had good strength, but my internal rotators needed more work. She also said my shoulders were weak overall. So that is part of the problem. Somehow I need to strengthen them without overhead presses.

I finally bought some of those hot/cold packs. So I’ll be using them during the week. That along with massage therapy and the supplements should help.

It’s frusturating because I have lost so much strength. Last night, I worked out with 55lb dumbbells on my inclines and flat benches. I did 8-10 reps. Prior to injuries, I could handle 65-85lb dumbbells. It sucks, but I know that I can get my strength back quickly. I just need the pain to go away.

And if you need to know, my stats are as follows. I’m 25 (26 next month), I’m 5’4", 145lb, currently about 11-13 percent bodyfat. I have been working out for nearly eight years. I began hitting the weights after I graduated high school. Too bad T-mag and Ian King weren’t available to me then. I’ve become aware of so many mistakes that I’ve made until recently.

As for ART, I would love to have that done. Unfortunately, the nearest person is in Sarasota. That is about a 3-4 hour drive. Which isn’t too bad. But the fact that I would need to take time off of work every time I needed a visit is the problem. And I know the visits would be extremely expensive, and most likely not covered by my health insurance. It would be nice to have someone closer.

If anyone has anymore questions or comments, please let me know! Thank you.

Hi Nate. Sorry to hear about your problems. I did have a couple of comments to make about your treatment plan. I work with ortho’s, PTs and ART people a lot in CA and have some experience with managing the kind of symptoms you describe. I’m an ergonmics researcher and deal with people who have problems with the upper extremities all the time.

Frankly, I would not follow the advice of your PT too closely regarding your ‘weak’ delts, although I don’t mean to diss him/her in other respects. Yes, you may may have an imbalance in your rotator cuff muscles. But the comments your PT made sound a lot like an approach called ‘Work Hardening.’ It’s the idea that the work being performed is itself injurious to the body, and so the body must be built up do the work and avoid injury. I generally don’t find this to be the case in upper extremity cases; the work itself is not injurious, rather it is the way the work is done that brings on injury.

I work with lots of people who get RSIs/carpal tunnel syndrome/tendinitis/whatever from the computer, and their symptoms invariably get worse if they go through a work hardening protocol. There has to be a change to their technique to give them any relief from their symptoms. As far as your ‘weak’ delts go, they weren’t weak a while ago before you got injured. And they may only be ‘weak’ because you are in a lot of pain and can’t perform as your normally could. Trying to build them up while they are in an acute state may make the problems worse.

My first bit of advice would be first, do whatever is necessary to manage symptoms. Do whatever you can to make the discomfort less. If heat/ice, ultrasound and other passive forms of PT help you, then do it. Take aspirin, acetaminophen or another over the counter pain-reliver/anti-inflammatory if it helps. Get plenty of sleep, and do whatever you can to assure deep sleep at night. Sleep is the time when our bodies do most of the healing from the day’s traumas, and you can get in a viscious cycle if your discomfort keeps you from sleeping. Stay away from daily activities that bring on discomfort (sorry!)

MOST IMPORTANLY, DON’T DO ANYTHING THAT MAKES IT HURT WORSE. That include trying to ‘work through the pain’. If you tolerate the workout your PT/trainer suggests for your shoulders, then okay, go for it. If you don’t, stop immediately. Don’t try to tough it out, because these kinds of problems can become generalized, chronic, and can advance into something much worse.

Lastly, I would call the ART person closest to you and have a talk with them over the phone, if you haven’t already done so. Describe your symptoms to them, how they’ve advanced and what you’ve done so far. Be able to cite the medical diagnoses. Send them any x-rays/ultrasounds/MRIs/whatever pictures you have, and ask them point-blank if they can help you. I’ve talked to a number of the ART people across the country, and they are usually very willing to spend some phone time with patients to discuss the suitability of ART. It would help you quite a bit, as you’ll know at that point what they might be able to do for you. If they can help you, it would be well worth the trouble to take a trip to Gainesville. Be careful of having any old massage/physical therapist do ‘deep tissue’ work on you. Many forms of deep tissue massage are contraindicated in RSIs and can make symptoms worse. Again, if it helps great, if it hurts, stop immediately.

There was a great article in Muscle and Fitness in Spring of '98, I believe, about ART with a sidebar on Milos Sarcev and his shoulder problems. Sounds like you have something similar, and ART may be your only option.

Nate Dogg, I think you are trying to get back into it much too fast. I know it is difficult to do, but I think you need to cut the weights down to really light weights. I would continue go lighter until the pain subsides. I have had knee pain for almost a year now. As soon as it felt somewhat better, I went heavy with the squats and made them worse. I found that I could tolerate leg extensions, and I over did them. Now I have patellar inflammation in addition to my original problems. Starting two weeks ago, I started to do bodyweight squats instead of weighted squats. I am amazed that even that level of stimulation was enough to maintain mass on my legs. My left knee feels better than it has in a year. Thinking back, if I had taken a couple of weeks off, or backed off on the heavy weights when the pain started, I would have been back to all out training 10 months ago. So, think long-term and stop aggravating your injury. In my opinion, you are only prolonging the time it takes to full recovery.

My shoulders used to hurt (mostly right in the front) after benching. I bought a piece of equipment recently that seems to be helping with what i suspect is a rotator cuff problem. The device is called the shoulder horn. If u want to try it search back issues for a review and where to order. Kinda expensive for what u get but if it fixes the problem i will feel like it was a bargain.

Greg, good advice. Yes, my PT was definitely using “Work Hardening” on my injuries. She was telling me that I need to start with light weights and work muscles that have been neglected over the years. She said if I strengthen them, I will be back to my normal weights in no time.

Sounds like she wanted me to do exactly what you described. So maybe I just need to correct my form on a few things. Even though I follow good form, I bet that some of my movements have gotten into the wrong pattern of movement and are causing more problems. I hope I will be able to learn and correct any mistakes at the Biotest Seminar.

And I will give the nearest ART practioner a call to see if they could spend some time on the phone helping me.

Hyok, I did take time off. While receiving PT for my knee and shoulder, I was doing very light weights. I had also taken a few days/weeks off during October-December. Once I separated my shoulder, I took two weeks off from all weight training.

After that, I started going back to the gym and working out with light weights. Last week was the first week where I started moving my weights up a little more and trying to regain size and strength.

I don’t want to take more time off. Everybody keeps saying you need to take time off. I have done that. And have not seen improvements. And it is frusturating because I want to work out! I have atrophied quite a bit in the last few months. And my strength levels are almost less than when I first started out!

I did start in-line skating and mountain biking more, but that does nothing to keep my strength and muscle mass. I’m currently weight training three days a week. Monday is chest/back, Tuesday is Legs&calves and Thursday is Arms&shoulders.

I’m using moderate weights with higher reps (8-12) for one to three sets. I try to avoid anything that causes more pain. I just want to work out! I feel like crap not being able to strength train.

Nate, I have problems with one of my shoulders also and I worked through it with the following program. The glucosamine should work for you but make sure you do not miss your a day and give between 30 and 60 days. Make sure you warm it up thoroughly before lifting. Something that I believe that has been the KEY to helping my shoulder is buying Dolgit Creme. It is truly miraculous. All it is is Ibuprofen Creme that can be applied topically. The advantages to it is that it goes directly to the injury without interferering with your stomach (ie ulcers for mass consumption of oral ibuprofen) and very little goes into your blood stream (so it will not effect your liver. When I apply this I cannot feel any pain in my shoulder. IT IS TRULY MIRACULOUS. I wish Biotest sold it but the only company that I know sells it know is AST (by the way their MRP’s taste terrible). I hope that they will offer this in the drug store soon in America. Good luck!

Nate Dogg, 8-12 reps is high reps? I was thinking more along the lines of 15-20. I know that is not the classic muscle building rep range, but I have found that it has benefited me when I had joint problems. It really seems to get the blood flowing to the area. I always feared high reps because I thought it would make me shrink, but after going through Ian King’s programs I have a more open mind to it. It’s been my experience that I can gain on that kind of high rep range, though the gains stop after a two to three weeks. By that time, my joints feels good enough to go back to heavy. I stay heavy only long enough to regain or top my previous bests, then I go back to a rep range that is easier on my joints. I hate to sound like I know what your problems are, because I don’t. Only you can know the full extent of your joint problems, but it does sound to me like your shoulder and knee issues may be due to excessive load. It certainly has been the case for me. I started to have problems in my left knee after I squatted heavily for a month, following Poliquins recommendation to do triples with heavy weights. My right knee is fine. An MRI revealed a void on the lateral condyle on my left knee. That little defect never cause an issue until it was stress beyond a certain point. Everyone has a different structure. If I bench heavily for weeks on end, my shoulders just kill me. But if I only do maximal lifts once in a while, it is no problem. I hope what I’m saying helps in some small way, and I hope you get better my man. You are always a great contributor to this board. Cheers.

Nate Dogg, I’m happy to hear you got your hands on some Gluc./Chond. but you’re missing the MSM. Adding MSM to the mix will enhance repair quite substantially. Normally a 100 gram bottle of MSM powder goes for about $10. In your case I would use 10 grams a day for the first month and then cut back to 5 grams a day for maintenance. I believe MSM is a very underated supplement for joint health. I will be at the seminar in Orlando and we can B.S. some more down there. Good Luck with the injuries.

Hyok, thanks for the info. Yes, it does help. I was working in the 10-20 rep range for the past month and got back to 8-12 reps last week. So I have been trying to progress from higher reps to more of the typical rep ranges for building some mass. I’m glad you guys enjoy my contributions to the forum. After posting things, I tend to remember if I’m doing something wrong or need to change something. So it helps me too!

Sig, I am looking for the MSM. I found it at GNC but it was way overpriced. I need to find it somewhere else. I’ll try to get a hold of that before the seminar.

I look forward to seeing you there. Thanks again for all the help! One day I’ll be big again…well, as big as my little body can get! :slight_smile:

I’ve got injuries on both shoulders;left front delt tendon and right rear delt tendon, and they are stopping me training too(been resting 6 weeks).I was thinking of using some low doses of steroids, as I can get real Winstrol but I’m a bit wary as I’ve read on the Mesomorphosis site that AS increases collagen deposition on tendons etc.The study was about steroids and the increased risk of tendon injury from them,but it couldn’t conclude if this increased collagen was a bad thing.Basically I don’t want to make the situation worse.
However one of the uses of Primobolan’s to help wounds heal plus people I know who use gear say low dose Deca is especially good.
Any info would be sound as I need to stop shrinking!

Yo cjack!

Where can I get hooked up with this dolgit creme? It sounds pretty good. gotta try that. Thanks a bunch

Universl, go to google and put in the word ‘dolgit creme’ and it will be the very first search. Dolgit creme works great! In fact I used it today on my knee before doing legs because my knee was hurting. Didn’t even feel the pain in 2-3 minutes. Dolgit Gel is a transdermal ibuprofen cream that exerts some rather unique properties that make it ideal for local pain and inflammation relief. It has been extensively researched and found to provide pain and inflammation reduction very effectively. It costs about $27 for 100 grams. It lasts a long time. I am not sure why drug stores are not selling it yet. Maybe it hasn’t been FDA approved because I have noticed that European companies sell it.

cjack, the dolgit creme you’re refering to may be great for relieving the pain but all you’re basically doing is putting a band-aid on the root of the problem. The pain in your knee is your body trying to tell you something is wrong. Masking the pain with anything and working through it could possibly cause some serious injuries down the road. Listen to your body and FIX the underlying problem!

Nate Dogg,
If you have chronic shoulder problems you might give MSM a try. I believe the full name is something Methylsulfanolmethate, but I could be wrong on my spelling. Basically, it provides a type of sulfur that is essential to the joints. Anecedotally, I tried Glucosamine and the Chrondrotin without much success. But the MSM really helped a lot. I’ve sprained both my ankles three times from jumping and other things. So there is definite wear and tear. After about six months of the MSM my ankles stopped bothering me. There is also a short book out on the effects of MSM. I forget the title but you can get at Barnes and Noble. BTW, I took about six grams a day. It seems you have to experiment with the dosage to get the effect. Hope this helps.