[quote]AdamC wrote:
Surely emergency treatment should be paid using tax dollars?
[/quote]
I’m still trying to figure out why a 10 minute ambulance ride cost me $2K…granted the service was top notch…but still my super exorbitant Blue-Cross coverage didn’t cover the entire ride…wtf? I can’t imagine needing to be air-lifted. I’d have to mortgage my house.
I think if there was more competition between health services coverage would be cheaper–maybe I am wrong on that assumption. I just know I don’t want other people paying my way and I don’t want to pay other people’s way…managed health care doesn’t work in the private sector and it won’t work in the public sector either.
Does anyone remember when the US military switched over to Tri-Care…? service went to shit.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I wonder if anyone has bothered to ask the doctors if they don’t mind taking orders from government bureaucrats.
As opposed to insurance company bureaucrats, lawyers and hospital administrators?
I know that it would be a thrill to study for 10 years, suffer through residency, finally start to make money at about age 30, and then have some seedy gov’t bureaucrat tell me how much I may earn and who I must serve.
The HeadHunter HealthCare System is such a good one. Staffed with all those little strawmen. Very nice.
Is the goal of being a doctor to be a robot who takes orders? If so, if doctors are to be made slaves, what will we depend on when they operate on us? Does anyone here WANT to be operated on by someone who doesn’t mind being a slave?
Only if I get to pick who cracks the whip during the procedure.
Oh, the doctors’ opinions don’t matter? Well, as long as we’re going to tell highly intelligent people what to do…
I’m pretty sure highly intelligent people can figure a solution to their problems without your help.
Do you also volunteer to blow balloons at parties?
[/quote]
Ever wonder why highly intelligent people become doctors and lawyers, but not teachers? (I’m a teacher and I fully admit that I don’t have the brain power of a good doctor or lawyer, btw.) Teachers in the publics are treated like cattle. Anyone proposing to enact some sort of system like that in medicine is simply creating a disaster.
Sure, the low-level med stuff will still be done efficiently.
But, what kind of arrogance seeks to tell someone at the top of the medical field that they have to take orders? Imagine the dedication and intellect it takes to become a top-notch heart surgeon. Now we propose to put someone like that under the thumb of someone who would be lucky to run a post office. Uh…yeah…good luck with that…
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…
But, what kind of arrogance seeks to tell someone at the top of the medical field that they have to take orders? Imagine the dedication and intellect it takes to become a top-notch heart surgeon. Now we propose to put someone like that under the thumb of someone who would be lucky to run a post office. Uh…yeah…good luck with that…
[/quote]
That is why we are loaded with top quality Canadian doctors down here in the USA.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
That is why we are loaded with top quality Canadian doctors down here in the USA.[/quote]
Exactly. The problem is self-correcting. When the Canadian government overstepped it’s bounds and pushed the doctors around a bit too much in the late 90s’, a bunch of them left.
The government has since been a lot more careful and has not repeated the mistake of implementing drastic policies.
There still are quite a few private practices in Maine and Vermont where you can get medical care in French by Quebec doctors and staff. A reminder that highly intelligent, highly educated and trained people are a resource to be cherished.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
That is why we are loaded with top quality Canadian doctors down here in the USA.
Exactly. The problem is self-correcting. When the Canadian government overstepped it’s bounds and pushed the doctors around a bit too much in the late 90s’, a bunch of them left.
The government has since been a lot more careful and has not repeated the mistake of implementing drastic policies.
There still are quite a few private practices in Maine and Vermont where you can get medical care in French by Quebec doctors and staff. A reminder that highly intelligent, highly educated and trained people are a resource to be cherished.
[/quote]
It doesn’t self correct fast enough for my tastes. In PA between the stupid laws and malpractice insurance OB/GYNs have been leaving the state in droves for the past few years.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
pookie wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I wonder if anyone has bothered to ask the doctors if they don’t mind taking orders from government bureaucrats.
As opposed to insurance company bureaucrats, lawyers and hospital administrators?
I know that it would be a thrill to study for 10 years, suffer through residency, finally start to make money at about age 30, and then have some seedy gov’t bureaucrat tell me how much I may earn and who I must serve.
The HeadHunter HealthCare System is such a good one. Staffed with all those little strawmen. Very nice.
Is the goal of being a doctor to be a robot who takes orders? If so, if doctors are to be made slaves, what will we depend on when they operate on us? Does anyone here WANT to be operated on by someone who doesn’t mind being a slave?
Only if I get to pick who cracks the whip during the procedure.
Oh, the doctors’ opinions don’t matter? Well, as long as we’re going to tell highly intelligent people what to do…
I’m pretty sure highly intelligent people can figure a solution to their problems without your help.
Do you also volunteer to blow balloons at parties?
Ever wonder why highly intelligent people become doctors and lawyers, but not teachers? (I’m a teacher and I fully admit that I don’t have the brain power of a good doctor or lawyer, btw.) Teachers in the publics are treated like cattle. Anyone proposing to enact some sort of system like that in medicine is simply creating a disaster.
Sure, the low-level med stuff will still be done efficiently.
But, what kind of arrogance seeks to tell someone at the top of the medical field that they have to take orders? Imagine the dedication and intellect it takes to become a top-notch heart surgeon. Now we propose to put someone like that under the thumb of someone who would be lucky to run a post office. Uh…yeah…good luck with that…
[/quote]
The same kind of arrogance that has put the US under the thumb of Chief Rocket Scientist Bush?
Just an observation on how power and intellect have no correlation whatsoever.
The majority of people ,I believe ,will agree that Bush is not the harpest tool in the shed.
so please no pantie twisting,this is just an example.
Now I feel like the poster child for Victims of the American Health Care System.
Do you think if I took a picture of myself sadly holding out my poor, injured hand, and sent it to Michael Moore, he might help finance a trip to Cuba to get it fixed?
[quote]dragonmamma wrote:
Now I feel like the poster child for Victims of the American Health Care System.[/quote]
Sorry about that. It’s just that an actual example is a lot harder to dismiss than various anonymous statistics.
It’s interesting to note that among all the posts boasting about how great the US system is, your initial post has been almost completely ignored.
Maybe if you take a picture of your hand holding a stick of dynamite with Arabic on it, you could get sent to Guantanamo? Zap tells me it’s a great place for R&R, especially if you like dogs and loud music.
[quote]pookie wrote:
dragonmamma wrote:
Now I feel like the poster child for Victims of the American Health Care System.
Sorry about that. It’s just that an actual example is a lot harder to dismiss than various anonymous statistics.
It’s interesting to note that among all the posts boasting about how great the US system is, your initial post has been almost completely ignored.
Do you think if I took a picture of myself sadly holding out my poor, injured hand, and sent it to Michael Moore, he might help finance a trip to Cuba to get it fixed?
Maybe if you take a picture of your hand holding a stick of dynamite with Arabic on it, you could get sent to Guantanamo? Zap tells me it’s a great place for R&R, especially if you like dogs and loud music.
[/quote]
I have no doubt that if I had the resources of Lindsay Lohan, I could get top-notch surgery and therapy for my hand that would make it good as new. (Not to mention a prescription for some really cool drugs!)
As far as your photo suggestion…good idea, but I think I’ll pass. God knows what awful brand of protein powder they serve up.
"We have health insurance through my husband’s employer, (I’m in USofA) but because of the deductible and the fact that they only pay a percentage of costs, we have not always gotten medical care when we should have. I still have a bum right hand that I believe I broke several years ago, but never got checked out because of medical costs.
[/quote]
Sounds like they chose the wrong plan. Most HMO plans have no deductible and only cost $6 for a prescription and $50/day for hospital care. That is damn cheep in my book. Sounds like they have PPO plan which has both deductible and copays. So I would say that instead of stating the system such, use your brain and work within the system, because it�??s not as bad as you think if you know how it works.
This is a great example of why many people think the US system sucks. In-home births are not covered by most health insurance because they are very risky, from a medical perspective, and most physicians will not be involved in that. And as health insurance only covers what has been proven safe and effective, they most likely would not cover in-home births.
So the big disconnect here is that health insurance covers what is medically necessary AND proven scientifically to be effective (meds, treatments, etc). This means that fact that you want the treatment or think it may work is irrelevant until science supports that.
So the difference is what people need vs what they want and they think will work and what science has proven will work.
This is excellent! If everyone decided that their health was their own responsibility and not someone else’s we would all be better off. Less people would be sick, overweight, etc.
If the Canadian system is so great, why do rich Canadians come to the US for healthcare and pay cash? Because the long waits and rationed medicine/treatment:
Sounds like they chose the wrong plan. Most HMO plans have no deductible and only cost $6 for a prescription and $50/day for hospital care. That is damn cheep in my book. Sounds like they have PPO plan which has both deductible and copays. So I would say that instead of stating the system such, use your brain and work within the system, because it�??s not as bad as you think if you know how it works.
I had home-births for both of my kids, but just paying the midwife and back-up doctor fees cost more than $3000 apiece.
This is a great example of why many people think the US system sucks. In-home births are not covered by most health insurance because they are very risky, from a medical perspective, and most physicians will not be involved in that. And as health insurance only covers what has been proven safe and effective, they most likely would not cover in-home births.
[/quote]
All health insurance plans sound wonderful in the brochures, but once you try to actually use them, you discover all the loop-holes they use to prevent forking over any cash. (For example, you may pay only $50 a day for hospital care, but that probably only covers the room. I doubt that that includes doctor’s fees, anaesthetist’s fee’s, x-rays, etc.)
As far as the home-births–our plan actually covered a slightly higher percentage than if I had hospital births. (Which, on average, would have been over $8,000 apiece.)
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Sounds like they chose the wrong plan. Most HMO plans have no deductible and only cost $6 for a prescription and $50/day for hospital care. That is damn cheep in my book. Sounds like they have PPO plan which has both deductible and copays. So I would say that instead of stating the system such, use your brain and work within the system, because it�??s not as bad as you think if you know how it works. [/quote]
So the system is perfect, it’s just that people are too stupid to use it correctly?
I always say the US is filled with idiots. Thanks for giving me a great supporting example.
So you’re saying that Dragonmamma chose the most expensive and riskiest alternative? Something, somwhere doesn’t add up.
That’s pretty much a given. Homeopathy is not covered in Canada either, except by some private insurances.
Well that’s nice, but most people who get really sick do not do so by choice. Same thing if you’re hit by a car or accidentally pushed down some stairs. You can be careful and take of yourself and still require extensive care at some point.
[quote]If the Canadian system is so great, why do rich Canadians come to the US for healthcare and pay cash? Because the long waits and rationed medicine/treatment:
No one is claiming that the Canadian system is perfect. Unlike many in the US, though, we are at least aware of it’s problems and shortcomings and solutions are being devised and implemented.
Do you think the US system is as good as it possibly can be and without any room for improvements at any level? If not, how close to that ideal do you consider it? 50%, 70%, 90%?
Maybe we don’t want to pay for Universal Health-Care. Whenever the subject of the Patriot act comes up I always hear “Liberty before security!” Ok, fine I agree, liberty before security. Leave my liberty (economic freedom) alone, because I’m not willing to trade it for someone else’s security (healthcare). Nor, do I expect someone else to more of their economic freedom so I can gain government health-care. I’ll choose my own health-care, as I’ve always done.
Unfortunately, one poster seems to have issues with getting their hand taken of. Sadly, no system is perfect, but I hope you get it straightened out soon. But, I’ll bring up Cancer survival rates under centralized health-care when compared against our (though not completely) free market system. I’d also point out just how much R&D our system can crank out. Surely that saves lives, no?
[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
The US’s problems with health care are the costs associated with it. The quality of the care is superior to virtually anywhere else on the planet.
So, given the two, which would you rather worry about? The price of the care or the quality of the care?
Since there is no option currently available that provides cheap, accessible, and superior care, I’m going to support the privatized, US-style model.
Better it be expensive health care than crappy health care.
The US system has its flaws and needs to be improved, but socializing it is taking a huge step backwards.[/quote]
Privatized? You think the U.S. health care system is privatized? The U.S. government spends more on health care than any nation in the world. Not only that but the amount of regulation that exists in the industry is frightening. An interesting side note: when the U.S. had a truly privatized health care system(in the late 1800s for instance) we had the best health care in the world AND the highest amount of access to that care. The cost of health care has been able to grow to astronomical levels because the insurance regulation causes people to be insulated from the actual costs. Because of this there is no downward pressure on prices and the actual cost will always continue to rise.
If people were not insulated from the costs they would continually decrease because of competition in the market(in much the same way that we can get a much higher quality computer for cheaper than we could last year).
Food , water, and shelter are all more “important” than health care but they can be supplied just fine because the market isn’t completely crippled by regulation.
[quote]Solid_Choke wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:
The US’s problems with health care are the costs associated with it. The quality of the care is superior to virtually anywhere else on the planet.
So, given the two, which would you rather worry about? The price of the care or the quality of the care?
Since there is no option currently available that provides cheap, accessible, and superior care, I’m going to support the privatized, US-style model.
Better it be expensive health care than crappy health care.
The US system has its flaws and needs to be improved, but socializing it is taking a huge step backwards.
Privatized? You think the U.S. health care system is privatized? The U.S. government spends more on health care than any nation in the world. Not only that but the amount of regulation that exists in the industry is frightening. An interesting side note: when the U.S. had a truly privatized health care system(in the late 1800s for instance) we had the best health care in the world AND the highest amount of access to that care. The cost of health care has been able to grow to astronomical levels because the insurance regulation causes people to be insulated from the actual costs. Because of this there is no downward pressure on prices and the actual cost will always continue to rise.
If people were not insulated from the costs they would continually decrease because of competition in the market(in much the same way that we can get a much higher quality computer for cheaper than we could last year).
Food , water, and shelter are all more “important” than health care but they can be supplied just fine because the market isn’t completely crippled by regulation.
[/quote]
Agreed. Our current system has the worst of both worlds with the insurance companies and the government both meddling.
I refuse to have health insurance beyond the simple 80/20, high deductible major medical.
I am not going to give my ability to choose to some desk jockey in Dallas when I am more than capable of making non-life threatening medical decisions on my own.
Every doctor I have been to in the last 1o years has given me a straight 25% discount on regular visits, and I got my vasectomy for half-price.
You still have the power - but the sheeple think they have to have full coverage which rapes them of any decision making ability. Or they are entitlement whores that think they are owed a fucking thing.
My Aunt lives in the GWN - she is on an 8 month waiting list to get testing for a spot on her lung. She will be dead by then. Long live free health care.
Every doctor I have been to in the last 1o years has given me a straight 25% discount on regular visits, and I got my vasectomy for half-price.
… [/quote]
[quote]pookie wrote:
So the system is perfect, it’s just that people are too stupid to use it correctly?
I always say the US is filled with idiots. Thanks for giving me a great supporting example.
[/quote]
No, not stupid, just not paying attention. When you are deciding on an insurance plan you need to look at what it covers, what the out of pocket is, etc. Just read the damn thing.
Try and stay focused. If an insurance company pays for home birthing and something goes wrong, they are also on the hook for paying for the complications, etc. So if they approve something that is more risky they are also making themselves at higher risk to pay for what goes wrong.
Believe it or not, a lot of the time, what benefits patients statistically will benefit the insurance company financially. So keeping people healthy by approving preventative care keeps patients healthy, and when people are healthy they don’t accrue healthcare costs. So, most of the time the insurance company is just as motivated as you are to keep you healthy, sometimes more motivated than the general public.
That is an idiotic statement. I think that is possible the most uninformed thing I have seen you post. (Maybe you just had a bad day?)
The FACT is that the most prevalent conditions in the US are: heart disease, cancer, and diabetes. All these are very preventable. According to the CDC: "Chronic diseases�??such as heart disease, cancer, and diabetes�??are the leading causes of death and disability in the United States. These diseases account for 7 of every 10 deaths and affect the quality of life of 90 million Americans.
Although chronic diseases are among the most common and costly health problems, they are also among the most preventable. Adopting healthy behaviors such as eating nutritious foods, being physically active, and avoiding tobacco use can prevent or control the devastating effects of these diseases."
So people do choose to get these diseases everyday by their lifestyle.
The US system is not at all perfect, but the reasons often are outside of healthcare altogether. For example, if the legal system were reformed to not allow unfounded lawsuits, the cost of care would drop dramatically. So the system is not perfect by any means. But it is also not the steaming pile of shyte that MM portrays either.