Sicko - Michael Moore

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
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[quote]Lorisco wrote:
The FACT is that the most prevalent conditions in the US are: heart disease, cancer, and diabetes. All these are very preventable.[/quote]

A better lifestyle will reduce the rates, no doubt. But to claim that all of those diseases are entirely preventable is not realistic.

Pushing your reasoning to it’s logical conclusion, I gather than you either A) plan to live forever, free of disease or B) expect to live in perfect help until, one day, you wake up dead.

Come on, be serious here. You’ve got a kid’s view of health and disease. I’m all for personal responsibility, but to assume that anyone who finds himself in an hospital bed is their through their own damn fault is pushing it.

Prevention also doesn’t apply to accidents. You can also catch diseases by touching, breathing or eating something contaminated, and unless you wear gloves and a mask or live like an hermit, that’s pretty much unavoidable.

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[quote]Majin wrote:
martMC48 wrote:
The problem with US healthcare lies in HMO’s and managed care, along with employer provided services. Look, HMO’s now dictate what providers and hospitals patients can use, they can refuse to pay for treatments they feel are “unnecessary” (let’s see, non-medical folks telling physicians and patients that the treatment prescribed is not necessary. Yeah, that makes tons of sense). Doctors are taking out 150k worth of loans to pay for school, and then do multiple years of training, to fight for payment from money hungry insurance companies and HMO’s. Oh, and in most states, insurance companies/HMO’s cannot be sued for refusing to pay for care. Socialized medicine is not the answer for the US. It would just be a big, unwieldy, all-encompassing HMO, with patients rights still coming secondary to the bottom line dollar.

HMOs are a US thing, and what you’re describing doesn’t have to be if things are done right. All of Europe has universal heatlthcare, there’s no reason why we couldn’t. Maybe their docs are not looking for ‘clients’… Can the government screw it up? Sure. And maybe it will. But that doesn’t make it a non-option. If it happens then people will interact with it and eventually get it to be what we want.

By the way, to Zap’s earlier comment. Yeah, why shouldn’t the government provide food and clothes and shelter? There are organizations for the homeless or low income families that do just that. If you can prove that you don’t have or can’t afford and you’re a citizen then why not?

Sometimes it looks like there’s no difference between being a citizen and an illegal immigrant, no wonder we have so many. It should be a benefit, a privilege to be a citizen. A US citizen should have security and feel protected instead of constantly fearing getting ripped off or charged up to their throat.

Part of why we take so much shit from the government is because we’re too pacified to do anything about it, we just don’t get to see any other way. Too much information, most of which is entertainment or local news(which is entertainment), so there’s no alternative views or options of how differently things can be done. [/quote]

Wow. What would be anyone’s motivation to work, seek higher education, better employment, or invent new products/cures/procedures/etc…? Socialism has been tried many times and is batting .00000 The most successful and wealthiest nations on earth are founded in capitalism. Most often the more capitalistic the better!

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[quote]MODOK wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what is the difference in the tax rates between the US and the UK, France, Germany, and the other EU countries with universal healthcare?[/quote]

In Germany you pay 14% for health care and 40% for everything involving social security, i.e unemployment, rent, accidents etc…

Then you get to pay taxes and should you have money left you get to pay indirect taxes, like VAT.

Now at your age you will not get anything out of the system, so you better have a private health insurance on top of the state built one and you should also start to save for your pension.

Should you successfully save/invest money you will be taxed via inflation and taxes on the interest.

There is also talk about taxing wealth directly, apparently those workers are REALLY (who come?) expensive and to lower costs there the money needs to come from somwewhere else.

For this you get rude and overworked personal in stalinist buildings of the seventies, an average face time with your doctor of about five minutes and waiting lists of a few months.

Forbidding private insurances is discussed, apparently some capitalist hoarders and traitors are fleeing the public system and take their chances with the free market…

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[quote]AdamC wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

The FACT is that the most prevalent conditions in the US are: heart disease, cancer, and diabetes. All these are very preventable.

Cancer is VERY preventable? What a load of bollocks. Cancer doesn’t seem to discriminate to me, mate.

[/quote]

Many cancers are very preventable through lifestyle changes, etc, Cancer | CDC

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[quote]orion wrote:

For this you get rude and overworked personal in stalinist buildings of the seventies, an average face time with your doctor of about five minutes and waiting lists of a few months.

[/quote]

sounds about right. same over here.

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[quote]pookie wrote:
A better lifestyle will reduce the rates, no doubt. But to claim that all of those diseases are entirely preventable is not realistic.
[/quote]

I didn’t claim all these diseases were lifestyle preventable. But a lot of them are. If you want to argue that point, argue with the CDC, because that is the Government Health Agency in the US who is stating that, not me (notice the quotes).

Again, I never stated all diseases are lifestyle related, ONLY the top 3. And again, I am not stating that, the CDC is stated that. So grow up!

And just to let you know, several twin studies conducted in Scandinavia about 10 years ago concluded that approx. 1/4 of chronic disease was genetic. That means that the other 3/4 is lifestyle related. I don’t have the references for this right now (I have it in my graduate studies info somewhere).

I must say, you calling me a child just makes you look silly as the fact is that I have forgotten more about healthcare, biology, medical treatment, etc than you will ever know. So you might want to shut up now before you look even more absurd.

True, but those are not even close to being as prevalent in the US population and heart disease, cancer, and diabetes.

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[quote]Lorisco wrote:
I must say, you calling me a child just makes you look silly as the fact is that I have forgotten more about healthcare, biology, medical treatment, etc than you will ever know. So you might want to shut up now before you look even more absurd.[/quote]

I’m sure you’ve forgotten a lot - it sure shows. I’d question whether you ever knew that much or even understood any of it. I’m yet to see you comment in a thread where the topic of science comes up and not appear completely out of your depth.

Regardless, we’re discussing access to health care and whether making that access universal is better than not doing so. Try to follow the ball.

Again, the discussion is not about prevalence of disease. It’s about people being unable to receive the medical care they need because the costs are too high for them.

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Michael Moore is a sick commie fuck whose lucky he isn’t dead. Don’t believe everything you see, esp his crap. Every dollar he gets from us propetuates his bullshit and sling shots it across the world. That worm doesn’t deserve the american soil he stands out I’d pull it out from underneath him if I could…

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[quote]pookie wrote:
I’m sure you’ve forgotten a lot - it sure shows. I’d question whether you ever knew that much or even understood any of it. I’m yet to see you comment in a thread where the topic of science comes up and not appear completely out of your depth.
[/quote]

Since that observation is based on the forum of opinion and not fact, I could care less. But you have reinforced a good reasons to not even engage in these kind of discussions as no one really understands what the hell they are talking about. They just read something on the net and think they are doctors. Anyway, believe what you want.

Here again is a perfect example of how you do not know enough to even follow the conversation. And you being from Canada should know better.

Let me enlighten you, again!

In a socialized healthcare system like you have up north there is not unlimited resources. The money for healthcare is given to each district/region based on DISEASE PREVALENCE! That’s right boys and girls, more money is given for the most prevalent conditions than the least or less prevalent conditions. So if you have some rare disease you are shit out of luck.

That is why if you have say heart failure you probably get treated fairly quickly, but if you have some rare neurological condition you could wait for months and months to get treatment. Or, go to the States and pay for it yourself like a lot of rich Canadian’s already do.

But with all its faults, the US system is not based on prevalence. Health insurance and government care cover all conditions equally. They may limit treatments to only those widely excepted, but they still cover all conditions.

That is a good example of the differences in the two systems.

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[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Let me enlighten you, again!

In a socialized healthcare system like you have up north there is not unlimited resources. The money for healthcare is given to each district/region based on DISEASE PREVALENCE! That’s right boys and girls, more money is given for the most prevalent conditions than the least or less prevalent conditions. So if you have some rare disease you are shit out of luck. [/quote]

Er, no. While there are problems with our system, I’ve never heard, seen or read about the one you mention. I’ve seen TV shows about people with rare diseases (the CBC’s “Enjeux” or on CTV’s “W5”) getting all the care they need.

Some of our current waiting lists problems concern fairly common procedure, such as hip and knee replacements, or eye surgeries. Diseases of old age where the demand currently outstrips the system’s ability to provide; in part because of our rapidly aging population.

You once again spout bullshit like a cow who’s been slipped a barrel of Ex-Lax, and “enlighten” no one at all. I don’t think you could enlighten anyone even if we plugged a flashlight up your ass, wrapped you in Christmas lights and set you on fire.

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[quote]T-MIA wrote:
Michael Moore is a sick commie fuck whose lucky he isn’t dead. Don’t believe everything you see, esp his crap. Every dollar he gets from us propetuates his bullshit and sling shots it across the world. That worm doesn’t deserve the american soil he stands out I’d pull it out from underneath him if I could…[/quote]

America. Truly the land of freedom and liberty.

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[quote]pookie wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Let me enlighten you, again!

In a socialized healthcare system like you have up north there is not unlimited resources. The money for healthcare is given to each district/region based on DISEASE PREVALENCE! That’s right boys and girls, more money is given for the most prevalent conditions than the least or less prevalent conditions. So if you have some rare disease you are shit out of luck.

Er, no. While there are problems with our system, I’ve never heard, seen or read about the one you mention. I’ve seen TV shows about people with rare diseases (the CBC’s “Enjeux” or on CTV’s “W5”) getting all the care they need.

Some of our current waiting lists problems concern fairly common procedure, such as hip and knee replacements, or eye surgeries. Diseases of old age where the demand currently outstrips the system’s ability to provide; in part because of our rapidly aging population.

You once again spout bullshit like a cow who’s been slipped a barrel of Ex-Lax, and “enlighten” no one at all. I don’t think you could enlighten anyone even if we plugged a flashlight up your ass, wrapped you in Christmas lights and set you on fire.
[/quote]

Nice try Bro, but no one is falling for your smokescreen of personal attacks designed to hide your lack of factual information.

Clearly, healthcare is rationed extensively in Canada: