Sicko - Michael Moore

[quote]martMC48 wrote:
Majin, no offense, but 99% of physicians don’t like the state of healthcare in the US right now. We (meaning medical students) don’t go into this business to mooch off of sick people.Most chooose this path out of genuine concern for people. So yes, it’s the nasty portions of crap food people eat that make them sick much more so than physicians ignoring their concerns.

The problem with US healthcare lies in HMO’s and managed care, along with employer provided services. Look, HMO’s now dictate what providers and hospitals patients can use, they can refuse to pay for treatments they feel are “unnecessary” (let’s see, non-medical folks telling physicians and patients that the treatment prescribed is not necessary. Yeah, that makes tons of sense). Doctors are taking out 150k worth of loans to pay for school, and then do multiple years of training, to fight for payment from money hungry insurance companies and HMO’s. Oh, and in most states, insurance companies/HMO’s cannot be sued for refusing to pay for care. Socialized medicine is not the answer for the US. It would just be a big, unwieldy, all-encompassing HMO, with patients rights still coming secondary to the bottom line dollar.

Oh, and don’t get me even started on malpractice suits…
[/quote]

As someone that plans to be involved in the healthcare system, what would your suggestion be? I’m sure you have a much better understanding of the problem than I so I would be interested in your opinion.

Couple of things:

  1. Socialized health care does not equal “crappy” health care;
  2. Private/expensive health care does not equal superior health care;

In either system, it is the drug companies who get rich.

Because it is socialized, don’t think it is free (as per above post), it’s far from it.

The only thing worse than insurance co’s and HMO"s running things is politicians.

That argument has some grounding but then what about when you get hit by a car? Is it necessarily my fault? Yet still, if you are a US citizen you have to shit yourself with fear because even your ambulance ride might not be covered.

Surely emergency treatment should be paid using tax dollars?

[quote]martMC48 wrote:
The problem with US healthcare lies in HMO’s and managed care, along with employer provided services. Look, HMO’s now dictate what providers and hospitals patients can use, they can refuse to pay for treatments they feel are “unnecessary” (let’s see, non-medical folks telling physicians and patients that the treatment prescribed is not necessary. Yeah, that makes tons of sense). Doctors are taking out 150k worth of loans to pay for school, and then do multiple years of training, to fight for payment from money hungry insurance companies and HMO’s. Oh, and in most states, insurance companies/HMO’s cannot be sued for refusing to pay for care. Socialized medicine is not the answer for the US. It would just be a big, unwieldy, all-encompassing HMO, with patients rights still coming secondary to the bottom line dollar.[/quote]

HMOs are a US thing, and what you’re describing doesn’t have to be if things are done right. All of Europe has universal heatlthcare, there’s no reason why we couldn’t. Maybe their docs are not looking for ‘clients’… Can the government screw it up? Sure. And maybe it will. But that doesn’t make it a non-option. If it happens then people will interact with it and eventually get it to be what we want.


By the way, to Zap’s earlier comment. Yeah, why shouldn’t the government provide food and clothes and shelter? There are organizations for the homeless or low income families that do just that. If you can prove that you don’t have or can’t afford and you’re a citizen then why not?

Sometimes it looks like there’s no difference between being a citizen and an illegal immigrant, no wonder we have so many. It should be a benefit, a privilege to be a citizen. A US citizen should have security and feel protected instead of constantly fearing getting ripped off or charged up to their throat.

Part of why we take so much shit from the government is because we’re too pacified to do anything about it, we just don’t get to see any other way. Too much information, most of which is entertainment or local news(which is entertainment), so there’s no alternative views or options of how differently things can be done.

[quote]Majin wrote:
Sometimes it looks like there’s no difference between being a citizen and an illegal immigrant, no wonder we have so many. [/quote]

scratches head

I think you might be onto some very substantial thing here.

I would hope this country refrains from socializing health care any further. Sorry, but I’m not some slave to toil and provide for someone else by force.

[quote]Majin wrote:
Well, although his movies are often too agenda-laden, compared to the title-wave of agendas in American media his wasn’t that bad.

And the point of the film isn’t that every 1st world nation(to the above poster with Cuba) with free health care is a paradise. It’s not. The point is to critique OUR system. It’s that OUR system blows elephant cock.
[/quote]

What do you know about it other than what MM slanted your way?

How do you define basic healthcare needs?

Anyone in the US can go to an ED and get emergency care FREE! That is required by the EMTALA law. So it is not true that people who need urgent care cannot get it if they don�??t have insurance or money.

That is an ignorant statement. For the most part, physicians don’t try and keep anyone sick or perform unneeded procedures to make money. However, because of the high cost of litigation and the out of control legal system that allows unwarranted law suits, physicians order a bunch of unneeded tests to cover their ass.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Majin wrote:

It’s pathetic that being a US citizen and paying your taxes doesn’t even provide for the most basic of basic needs - health care. So for highlighting that point alone I’m glad he released the flick.

How do you define basic healthcare needs?

Anyone in the US can go to an ED and get emergency care FREE! That is required by the EMTALA law. So it is not true that people who need urgent care cannot get it if they don�??t have insurance or money.

[/quote]

Is that the case? The documentary gave the impression that even emergency care had to be insured. Or are our definitions of EMERGENCY different? For example, the woman who was having some sort of seizure was told that her insurance didn’t cover her ambulance ride…or the guy who had to be pay for his fingers to be sewn on?

[quote]AdamC wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Majin wrote:

It’s pathetic that being a US citizen and paying your taxes doesn’t even provide for the most basic of basic needs - health care. So for highlighting that point alone I’m glad he released the flick.

How do you define basic healthcare needs?

Anyone in the US can go to an ED and get emergency care FREE! That is required by the EMTALA law. So it is not true that people who need urgent care cannot get it if they don�??t have insurance or money.

Is that the case? The documentary gave the impression that even emergency care had to be insured. Or are our definitions of EMERGENCY different? For example, the woman who was having some sort of seizure was told that her insurance didn’t cover her ambulance ride…or the guy who had to be pay for his fingers to be sewn on?

[/quote]

Michael Moore is very deceptive. Even poor people get medical care in the US. Unfortunately many of them go to the ER because they end up not having to pay and it clogs up the whole system.

Insurance normally covers emergency care. If it is not covered the hospital still has to provide it.

http://www.emtala.com/faq.htm

[quote]AdamC wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Majin wrote:

It’s pathetic that being a US citizen and paying your taxes doesn’t even provide for the most basic of basic needs - health care. So for highlighting that point alone I’m glad he released the flick.

How do you define basic healthcare needs?

Anyone in the US can go to an ED and get emergency care FREE! That is required by the EMTALA law. So it is not true that people who need urgent care cannot get it if they don�??t have insurance or money.

Is that the case? The documentary gave the impression that even emergency care had to be insured. Or are our definitions of EMERGENCY different? For example, the woman who was having some sort of seizure was told that her insurance didn’t cover her ambulance ride…or the guy who had to be pay for his fingers to be sewn on?

[/quote]

I believe that a person with no insurance is sent to a charity hospital,or state hospital. The care there is free. I know that because some of my friends have worked at the one in BR.

If a person requests to be taken to a different hospital, they will receive treatment (because no one can be turned away in an ER), but will ultimately have to pay for the visit.

I think that every American should be able to walk into any hospital and get emergency care if you have been injured in something like a car accident. I am absolutely against free health care for all. The reason being that chronic health concerns are for the most part brought on by your own choices.

If you want to smoke cigarettes, not exercise, and live on fast food, so be it. You reap the benfits and you pay for your lifestyle. It’s funny that Moore is a champion of this since his fat ass would be the exact kind of perosn that would milk the system.

Also people need to stop going to the ER for colds/flus and especially for chronic health conditions and take the power back into their own hands and out of the drug companies.

[quote]BigRagoo wrote:
AdamC wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Majin wrote:

It’s pathetic that being a US citizen and paying your taxes doesn’t even provide for the most basic of basic needs - health care. So for highlighting that point alone I’m glad he released the flick.

How do you define basic healthcare needs?

Anyone in the US can go to an ED and get emergency care FREE! That is required by the EMTALA law. So it is not true that people who need urgent care cannot get it if they don�??t have insurance or money.

Is that the case? The documentary gave the impression that even emergency care had to be insured. Or are our definitions of EMERGENCY different? For example, the woman who was having some sort of seizure was told that her insurance didn’t cover her ambulance ride…or the guy who had to be pay for his fingers to be sewn on?

I believe that a person with no insurance is sent to a charity hospital,or state hospital. The care there is free. I know that because some of my friends have worked at the one in BR.

If a person requests to be taken to a different hospital, they will receive treatment (because no one can be turned away in an ER), but will ultimately have to pay for the visit.[/quote]

The ambulance companies are also regulated by the county. They are required to take an emergency patient to the nearest hospital that can treat them. And any hospital, private or public, that operates an Emergency Department must treat all patients regardless of ability to pay. That is the law.

I haven’t seen “Sicko”, but Michael Moore has never been one to present the entire truth. He is a master of hype and spin. So it doesn’t surprise me at all that this movie did not tell the entire truth.

The bottom line truth is that there is a gap between those who have insurance and those who don’t, and that gap is preventative care. EVERYONE receives emergency medical care regardless of ability to pay, but only those insured receive preventative care like screening for cancer, etc.

This is the bottom line fact with no spin!

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
The ambulance companies are also regulated by the county. They are required to take an emergency patient to the nearest hospital that can treat them. And any hospital, private or public, that operates an Emergency Department must treat all patients regardless of ability to pay. That is the law.
[/quote]

I haven’t seen the movie, but let me ask a question about this. There is an issue above and beyond getting treatment. Do these people get a bill whether or not they have the ability to pay, so that they are basically forced into bankruptcy?

I don’t know the answer, but unless the care is “free” when you don’t have coverage, then getting emergency treatment is only half the story…

Just read this and thought it relevant to this discussion, obviously. I find his life expectancy (looking strictly at medical care) comparison’s to be striking. Also, the cancer survival rates are something to think about. And, he mentions that M.D. Anderson spends more on research than all of Canada (well, that’s how I’m reading that, at least). Socialized Medicine may make us feel all warm and tingly inside, but does it really save more lives? Is it really the system we want? Could he make a documentary, presenting evidence favorable to his position, demonstrating the ills of universal health-care and the joys of a free-market system?

A Canadian Doctor Describes How Socialized Medicine Doesn’t Work

By DAVID GRATZER | Posted Thursday, July 26, 2007 4:30 PM PT

I was once a believer in socialized medicine. As a Canadian, I had soaked up the belief that government-run health care was truly compassionate. What I knew about American health care was unappealing: high expenses and lots of uninsured people.

My health care prejudices crumbled on the way to a medical school class. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute.

Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care.
Dr. Jacques Chaoulli faces the media in Montreal in June 2005, after he got Canada’s Supreme Court to strike down a Quebec law banning private insurance for services covered under Medicare �?? a decision the rocked the country’s universal health care system.

Dr. Jacques Chaoulli faces the media in Montreal in June 2005, after he got Canada’s Supreme Court to strike down a Quebec law banning private insurance for services covered under Medicare �?? a decision the rocked the country’s universal health care system.

I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic �?? with a three-year wait list; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.

Government researchers now note that more than 1.5 million Ontarians (or 12% of that province’s population) can’t find family physicians. Health officials in one Nova Scotia community actually resorted to a lottery to determine who’d get a doctor’s appointment.

These problems are not unique to Canada �?? they characterize all government-run health care systems.

Consider the recent British controversy over a cancer patient who tried to get an appointment with a specialist, only to have it canceled �?? 48 times. More than 1 million Britons must wait for some type of care, with 200,000 in line for longer than six months. In France, the supply of doctors is so limited that during an August 2003 heat wave �?? when many doctors were on vacation and hospitals were stretched beyond capacity �?? 15,000 elderly citizens died. Across Europe, state-of-the-art drugs aren’t available. And so on.

Single-payer systems �?? confronting dirty hospitals, long waiting lists and substandard treatment �?? are starting to crack, however. Canadian newspapers are filled with stories of people frustrated by long delays for care. Many Canadians, determined to get the care they need, have begun looking not to lotteries �?? but to markets.

Dr. Jacques Chaoulli is at the center of this changing health care scene. In the 1990s, he organized a private Quebec practice �?? patients called him, he made house calls and then he directly billed his patients. The local health board cried foul and began fining him. The legal status of private practice in Canada remained murky, but billing patients, rather than the government, was certainly illegal, and so was private insurance.

Eventually, Chaoulli took on the government in a case that went all the way to the Supreme Court. Representing an elderly Montrealer who had waited almost a year for a hip replacement, Chaoulli maintained that the patient should have the right to pay for private health insurance and get treatment sooner. A majority of the court agreed that Quebec’s charter did implicitly recognize such a right.

The monumental ruling, which shocked the government, opened the way to more private medicine in Quebec. Though the prohibition against private insurance holds in the rest of Canada for now, at least two people outside Quebec, armed with Chaoulli’s case as precedent, are taking their demand for private insurance to court.

Consider, too, Rick Baker. He isn’t a neurosurgeon or even a doctor. He’s a medical broker �?? one member of a private sector that is rushing in to address the inadequacies of Canada’s government care. Canadians pay him to set up surgical procedures, diagnostic tests and specialist consultations, privately and quickly.

Baker describes a man who had a seizure and received a diagnosis of epilepsy. Dissatisfied with the opinion �?? he had no family history of epilepsy, but he did have constant headaches and nausea, which aren’t usually seen in the disorder �?? he requested an MRI.

The government told him that the wait would be 4 1/2 months. So he went to Baker, who arranged to have the MRI done within 24 hours �?? and who, after the test revealed a brain tumor, arranged surgery within a few weeks. Some services that Baker brokers almost certainly contravene Canadian law, but governments are loath to stop him.

Other private-sector health options are blossoming across Canada, and the government is increasingly turning a blind eye to them, too, despite their often uncertain legal status. Private clinics are opening at a rate of about one a week.

Canadian doctors, long silent on the health care system’s problems, are starting to speak up. Last August, they voted Brian Day president of their national association. Day has become perhaps the most vocal critic of Canadian public health care, having opened his own private surgery center and challenging the government to shut him down.

And now even Canadian governments are looking to the private sector to shrink the waiting lists. In British Columbia, private clinics perform roughly 80% of government-funded diagnostic testing.

This privatizing trend is reaching Europe, too. Britain’s Labour Party �?? which originally created the National Health Service �?? now openly favors privatization. Sweden’s government, after the completion of the latest round of privatizations, will be contracting out some 80% of Stockholm’s primary care and 40% of its total health services.

Since the fall of communism, Slovakia has looked to liberalize its state-run system, introducing co-payments and privatizations. And modest market reforms have begun in Germany.

Yet even as Stockholm and Saskatoon are percolating with the ideas of Adam Smith, a growing number of prominent Americans are arguing that socialized health care still provides better results for less money.

Politicians like Hillary Clinton are on board; Michael Moore’s new documentary, “Sicko,” celebrates the virtues of Canada’s socialized health care; the National Coalition on Health Care, which includes big businesses like AT&T, recently endorsed a scheme to centralize major health decisions to a government committee; and big unions are questioning the tenets of employer-sponsored health insurance.

One often-heard argument, voiced by the New York Times’ Paul Krugman and others, is that America lags behind other countries in crude health outcomes. But such outcomes reflect a mosaic of factors, such as diet, lifestyle, drug use and cultural values. It pains me as a doctor to say this, but health care is just one factor in health.

Americans live 75.3 years on average, fewer than Canadians (77.3) or the French (76.6) or the citizens of any Western European nation save Portugal. Health care influences life expectancy, of course. But a life can end because of a murder, a fall or a car accident. Such factors aren’t academic �?? homicide rates in the U.S. are much higher than in other countries.

In The Business of Health, Robert Ohsfeldt and John Schneider factor out intentional and unintentional injuries from life-expectancy statistics and find that Americans who don’t die in car crashes or homicides outlive people in any other Western country.

And if we measure a health care system by how well it serves its sick citizens, American medicine excels. Five-year cancer survival rates bear this out. For leukemia, the American survival rate is almost 50%; the European rate is just 35%. Esophageal carcinoma: 12% in the U.S., 6% in Europe. The survival rate for prostate cancer is 81.2% here, yet 61.7% in France and down to 44.3% in England �?? a striking variation.

Like many critics of American health care, though, Krugman argues that the costs are just too high: health care spending in Canada and Britain, he notes, is a small fraction of what Americans pay. Again, the picture isn’t quite as clear as he suggests. Because the U.S. is so much wealthier than other countries, it isn’t unreasonable for it to spend more on health care. Take America’s high spending on research and development. M.D. Anderson in Texas, a prominent cancer center, spends more on research than Canada does.

That said, American health care is expensive. And Americans aren’t always getting a good deal. In the coming years, with health expenses spiraling up, it will be easy for some to give in to the temptation of socialized medicine. In Washington, there are plenty of old pieces of legislation that like-minded politicians could take off the shelf, dust off and promote: expanding Medicare to Americans 55 and older, say, or covering all children in Medicaid.

But such initiatives would push the U.S. further down the path to a government-run system and make things much, much worse. True, government bureaucrats would be able to cut costs �?? but only by shrinking access to health care, as in Canada, and engendering a Canadian-style nightmare of overflowing emergency rooms and yearlong waits for treatment.

America is right to seek a model for delivering good health care at good prices, but we should be looking not to Canada, but close to home �?? in the other four-fifths or so of our economy. From telecommunications to retail, deregulation and market competition have driven prices down and quality and productivity up. Health care is long overdue for the same prescription.

Gratzer, a physician, is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. This article is adapted from the forthcoming issue of City Journal.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=270338135202343

Also, infant mortality rates are often used to indict the US health-care system. A list is usually made comparing the reported numbers. One problem, the standards for reporting these numbers aren’t universal.

I’ve been looking at some articles demonstrating the differences in reporting live births and deaths that occur after. One might assume that if an infant simply draws a breath and then dies, it’s used in mortality statistics. What I’ve been reading lately suggests that this isn’t the case. And, apparently the US standard for counting a live birth is extremely liberal (no, not in the political sense…).

I plan to add more to this later. As of now, I wish to become more comfortable with the information. Just raising the topic for now as it might spur some others to look into how nations report such things.

Oh, and it would be great if we have any medical professionals that might shed some light on this.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
The ambulance companies are also regulated by the county. They are required to take an emergency patient to the nearest hospital that can treat them. And any hospital, private or public, that operates an Emergency Department must treat all patients regardless of ability to pay. That is the law.

I haven’t seen the movie, but let me ask a question about this. There is an issue above and beyond getting treatment. Do these people get a bill whether or not they have the ability to pay, so that they are basically forced into bankruptcy?

I don’t know the answer, but unless the care is “free” when you don’t have coverage, then getting emergency treatment is only half the story…[/quote]

They get a bill based on their ability to pay. So if you have no money/resources you are not billed or turned over to collections if you don’t/can’t pay. However, if you have money to pay you are expected to pay.

And understand that the care has already been delivered at this point. So regardless of one’s ability to pay they receive the care up front. And the care cannot be taken back.

So the issue is not whether they get care as Michael Moore might want you to believe. The issue is paying for it afterwards. And if someone has money, living in a big house, driving a nice car, then they damn well better pay for it or they should be sent to collections.

Anecdotally, we see many people from other countries (illegal aliens) coming here for FREE healthcare. They get sick in their own country and then hop on a plain and end up in the States in some emergency department. They then get admitted to the hospital, get thousands of dollars worth of healthcare, then get discharged, hop a plain back to their country, and never pay a dime!

So while many Americans may not know the value of our healthcare system, a lot of other people do and take full advantage of it.

Of course American health care is good, quality care. But the ability to pay for it keeps it out of reach for many people.

In this very thread, Dragonmamma posted:

[i]"We have health insurance through my husband’s employer, (I’m in USofA) but because of the deductible and the fact that they only pay a percentage of costs, we have not always gotten medical care when we should have. I still have a bum right hand that I believe I broke several years ago, but never got checked out because of medical costs.

I had home-births for both of my kids, but just paying the midwife and back-up doctor fees cost more than $3000 apiece.

One of my motivations for staying in good shape is that I can’t afford to get sick or decrepit."[/i]

Is that really what a good health care system produces? People who have bum right hands because they don’t get it set properly when they break it? People who risk losing infants to complications because they can’t afford to give birth in a hospital? Who forego medical care because their insurance doesn’t reimburse enough? Who can’t afford to get sick? As if we all choose to be sick or get hurt according to convenience.

If someone from Canada posted an identical message, we’d consider her seriously retarded. In the US, she’s making wise financial decisions any mother would make for her family.

The worse part is that, per capita, your system is more expensive than many “universal coverage” systems. I don’t know where the money is going, but it doesn’t appear to be toward providing care.

[quote]CantStop wrote:
The Moore film did really put the US healthcare in a bad light but I couldn’t take it too seriously. He did not provide any sort of counter argument leaving me feel that the documentary was unbalanced.
[/quote]

No!!! Michael Moore puts out a crock-umentary that’s unbalanced? Never!! Never, I say!!!

(I’ve seen ‘Roger and Me’ and ‘Bowling for Columbine’. I deeply regret that any of my $$ went into that fraud’s pocket. Also, those 2 were enough.)

I wonder if anyone has bothered to ask the doctors if they don’t mind taking orders from government bureaucrats. I know that it would be a thrill to study for 10 years, suffer through residency, finally start to make money at about age 30, and then have some seedy gov’t bureaucrat tell me how much I may earn and who I must serve.

Is the goal of being a doctor to be a robot who takes orders? If so, if doctors are to be made slaves, what will we depend on when they operate on us? Does anyone here WANT to be operated on by someone who doesn’t mind being a slave?

Oh, the doctors’ opinions don’t matter? Well, as long as we’re going to tell highly intelligent people what to do…

[quote]
Lorisco wrote:
The ambulance companies are also regulated by the county. They are required to take an emergency patient to the nearest hospital that can treat them. And any hospital, private or public, that operates an Emergency Department must treat all patients regardless of ability to pay. That is the law.

vroom wrote:
I haven’t seen the movie, but let me ask a question about this. There is an issue above and beyond getting treatment. Do these people get a bill whether or not they have the ability to pay, so that they are basically forced into bankruptcy?

I don’t know the answer, but unless the care is “free” when you don’t have coverage, then getting emergency treatment is only half the story…[/quote]

This can happen, but its frequency gets wildly overstated by advocates of universal health care.

See: The Right Coast