Sicko - Michael Moore

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
1

I saw this film the other night.

First off, I think the film is an important one but there are some HUGE exaggerations on the quality of health care in the UK, and probably the other countries featured.

I’m very happy that our health care system is free, particularly in the case of Accident and Emergency. I can’t imagine having to think about how much it’s gonna cost to save my fingers if they ever get cut off for example. That’s just ridiculous.

However, he made out like UK health care is some sort or perfect system. We have a LOT of problems with the NHS. Waiting times for operations, bed shortages, ward hygiene issue. You only have to run a google search to realise this. At least we have the option to pay and go private though.

Moore bangs the drum about government propaganda yet that is pretty much what he uses in this film. Some of the bullshit left me wondering if I live in some sort of socialist Eutopia! haha.

Anyone else seen the film?

2

[quote]AdamC wrote:
I saw this film the other night.

First off, I think the film is an important one but there are some HUGE exaggerations on the quality of health care in the UK, and probably the other countries featured.

I’m very happy that our health care system is free, particularly in the case of Accident and Emergency. I can’t imagine having to think about how much it’s gonna cost to save my fingers if they ever get cut off for example. That’s just ridiculous.

However, he made out like UK health care is some sort or perfect system. We have a LOT of problems with the NHS. Waiting times for operations, bed shortages, ward hygiene issue. You only have to run a google search to realise this. At least we have the option to pay and go private though.

Moore bangs the drum about government propaganda yet that is pretty much what he uses in this film. Some of the bullshit left me wondering if I live in some sort of socialist Eutopia! haha.

Anyone else seen the film?[/quote]

I have seen it and I also live in England.

I have been in UK hospitals and had friends and family that have been saved by the treatment provided. Whilst its not perfect, it is good given the resource and shitty manangement that is available.

The Moore film did really put the US healthcare in a bad light but I couldn’t take it too seriously. He did not provide any sort of counter argument leaving me feel that the documentary was unbalanced.

3

I saw it last week–my first ever Michael Moore film.

It was obviously biased and manipulative, but he still made a lot of good points.

We have health insurance through my husband’s employer, (I’m in USofA) but because of the deductible and the fact that they only pay a percentage of costs, we have not always gotten medical care when we should have. I still have a bum right hand that I believe I broke several years ago, but never got checked out because of medical costs.

I had home-births for both of my kids, but just paying the midwife and back-up doctor fees cost more than $3000 apiece.

One of my motivations for staying in good shape is that I can’t afford to get sick or decrepit.

4

I saw the film last week and yeah, was appalled too. The only problem with Michael Moore films is that they are really one sided. He didn’t mention that in Cuba where health care is free, they have big time hygiene issues and not to mention supply issues. My Mother is a doctor and thinks that in the next 30 years our country (US) will go nationalized/socialist. I certainly hope so.

5

Well, although his movies are often too agenda-laden, compared to the title-wave of agendas in American media his wasn’t that bad.

And the point of the film isn’t that every 1st world nation(to the above poster with Cuba) with free health care is a paradise. It’s not. The point is to critique OUR system. It’s that OUR system blows elephant cock.

It’s pathetic that being a US citizen and paying your taxes doesn’t even provide for the most basic of basic needs - health care. So for highlighting that point alone I’m glad he released the flick.

And although one may argue that we’re so sick because we eat shit-food in large plates…Well, the doctor who makes his living off of you has much greater inclination of continuing giving you prescriptions and telling you that it’s all ‘normal’.

Again, as with all Moore films, I dislike some of the ways he presents the information. But the overall point is valid, and that can’t be argued.

6

[quote]dragonmamma wrote:

One of my motivations for staying in good shape is that I can’t afford to get sick or decrepit.[/quote]

Man, that’s just scary. I felt so lucky when I read this.

7

[quote]AdamC wrote:
dragonmamma wrote:

One of my motivations for staying in good shape is that I can’t afford to get sick or decrepit.

Man, that’s just scary. I felt so lucky when I read this.
[/quote]

I know what you mean. When I saw it, although it was almost farcical with the amount of bias he employs I was glad that it wasn’t like that over here.

Where do you pay?

We don’t pay.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!?

8

I thought it was quite good, a bit over the top but hey I like my canadian health care :slight_smile:

10

[quote]AdamC wrote:

However, he made out like UK health care is some sort or perfect system. We have a LOT of problems with the NHS. Waiting times for operations, bed shortages, ward hygiene issue. You only have to run a google search to realise this. At least we have the option to pay and go private though.
[/quote]

I have a question for people in the UK.

One of the concerns in Canada about adopting the “pay and go private” option is that the government will allow waiting times in the free system to increase and “encourage” people to go private, thereby saving the government money.

Are there any similar concerns with your system at times of budget cuts? Also is there an active watchdog of service levels in the free system?

I would like a system similar to what you have, but I wonder what changes would occur to the free system. For example, a co-worker was put on a five month waiting list to see a dermatologist, but you could book a next day appointment with the same specialist (in the same office) for minor cosmetic procedures such as botox.

11

[quote]pushharder wrote:
AdamC wrote:

…our health care system is free…

Is it now? Hmmmmmmmm…I don’t think so.

Nor is the Canadian system free.

Think about it. Get back to me.[/quote]

It might not be free but it’s better than waking up in a hospital and thinking “Oh shit, I can’t afford this”.

12

[quote]pushharder wrote:
AdamC wrote:

…our health care system is free…

Is it now? Hmmmmmmmm…I don’t think so.

Nor is the Canadian system free.

Think about it. Get back to me.[/quote]

well, maybe if i’d never worked a day in my life. Then technically it would be free :-p

13

[quote]Majin wrote:
…

It’s pathetic that being a US citizen and paying your taxes doesn’t even provide for the most basic of basic needs - health care. …[/quote]

Food shelter and clothing are a more basic need than healthcare. The government does not provide that to any except the very poorest or prisoners.

14

The US’s problems with health care are the costs associated with it. The quality of the care is superior to virtually anywhere else on the planet.

So, given the two, which would you rather worry about? The price of the care or the quality of the care?

Since there is no option currently available that provides cheap, accessible, and superior care, I’m going to support the privatized, US-style model.

Better it be expensive health care than crappy health care.

The US system has its flaws and needs to be improved, but socializing it is taking a huge step backwards.

15

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Majin wrote:
…

It’s pathetic that being a US citizen and paying your taxes doesn’t even provide for the most basic of basic needs - health care. …

Food shelter and clothing are a more basic need than healthcare. The government does not provide that to any except the very poorest or prisoners.[/quote]

Thanks for the semantics, Zap.

16

[quote]Majin wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Majin wrote:
…

It’s pathetic that being a US citizen and paying your taxes doesn’t even provide for the most basic of basic needs - health care. …

Food shelter and clothing are a more basic need than healthcare. The government does not provide that to any except the very poorest or prisoners.

Thanks for the semantics, Zap.[/quote]

I think it is a really important point. We do not expect these basic things to be provided by the government, why would we expect them to provide healthcare?

I think our system is broken and needs to be fixed. I think the insurance companies take far too big a share of our healthcare expenditures.

I also think that having the government determine what treatment you need and paying for and rationing treatment is a bad idea. Make no mistake, this is exactly what will happen if we go to the system Moore advocates.

I think the power should go to the patient, not the insurance company or the government. The only way to do that is have the patient write the checks to the doctors.

I have no problem with the government helping pay for poor peoples care but I do not think they should be in charge of the majority of peoples healthcare.

No matter what happens the money comes out of our pockets. I would rather have control of it.

17

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I think it is a really important point. We do not expect these basic things to be provided by the government, why would we expect them to provide healthcare?

I think our system is broken and needs to be fixed. I think the insurance companies take far too big a share of our healthcare expenditures.

I also think that having the government determine what treatment you need and paying for and rationing treatment is a bad idea. Make no mistake, this is exactly what will happen if we go to the system Moore advocates.

I think the power should go to the patient, not the insurance company or the government. The only way to do that is have the patient write the checks to the doctors.

I have no problem with the government helping pay for poor peoples care but I do not think they should be in charge of the majority of peoples healthcare.

No matter what happens the money comes out of our pockets. I would rather have control of it.[/quote]

I agree. Like I said, I don’t like how he presents the info. But the main point is that what we have sucks. The fact that most(if not all) 1st world nations have universal health care and higher life-expectancy is something to think about. At least in this case it will be our tax dollars actually spent on us and not the myriad of useless crap like the oversized tumor of a ‘defense’ budget that we have.

18

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Majin wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Majin wrote:
…

It’s pathetic that being a US citizen and paying your taxes doesn’t even provide for the most basic of basic needs - health care. …

Food shelter and clothing are a more basic need than healthcare. The government does not provide that to any except the very poorest or prisoners.

Thanks for the semantics, Zap.

I think it is a really important point. We do not expect these basic things to be provided by the government, why would we expect them to provide healthcare?

I think our system is broken and needs to be fixed. I think the insurance companies take far too big a share of our healthcare expenditures.

I also think that having the government determine what treatment you need and paying for and rationing treatment is a bad idea. Make no mistake, this is exactly what will happen if we go to the system Moore advocates.

I think the power should go to the patient, not the insurance company or the government. The only way to do that is have the patient write the checks to the doctors.

I have no problem with the government helping pay for poor peoples care but I do not think they should be in charge of the majority of peoples healthcare.

No matter what happens the money comes out of our pockets. I would rather have control of it.[/quote]

QFT. Said it better than I could.

19

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
The US’s problems with health care are the costs associated with it. The quality of the care is superior to virtually anywhere else on the planet.

So, given the two, which would you rather worry about? The price of the care or the quality of the care?

Since there is no option currently available that provides cheap, accessible, and superior care, I’m going to support the privatized, US-style model.

Better it be expensive health care than crappy health care.

The US system has its flaws and needs to be improved, but socializing it is taking a huge step backwards.[/quote]

Out of interest when was it decided that the US healthcare system was the best in the world?

I’ve not used the US healthcare service so you could be right, but I don’t see any reason why your service would be better than the English (Or any first world nation’s) private healthcare system.

If you have the money you can pay for a better service over here too.

20

[quote]Majin wrote:
Well, although his movies are often too agenda-laden, compared to the title-wave of agendas in American media his wasn’t that bad.

And the point of the film isn’t that every 1st world nation(to the above poster with Cuba) with free health care is a paradise. It’s not. The point is to critique OUR system. It’s that OUR system blows elephant cock.

It’s pathetic that being a US citizen and paying your taxes doesn’t even provide for the most basic of basic needs - health care. So for highlighting that point alone I’m glad he released the flick.

And although one may argue that we’re so sick because we eat shit-food in large plates…Well, the doctor who makes his living off of you has much greater inclination of continuing giving you prescriptions and telling you that it’s all ‘normal’.

Again, as with all Moore films, I dislike some of the ways he presents the information. But the overall point is valid, and that can’t be argued.[/quote]

Majin, no offense, but 99% of physicians don’t like the state of healthcare in the US right now. We (meaning medical students) don’t go into this business to mooch off of sick people.Most chooose this path out of genuine concern for people. So yes, it’s the nasty portions of crap food people eat that make them sick much more so than physicians ignoring their concerns.

The problem with US healthcare lies in HMO’s and managed care, along with employer provided services. Look, HMO’s now dictate what providers and hospitals patients can use, they can refuse to pay for treatments they feel are “unnecessary” (let’s see, non-medical folks telling physicians and patients that the treatment prescribed is not necessary. Yeah, that makes tons of sense). Doctors are taking out 150k worth of loans to pay for school, and then do multiple years of training, to fight for payment from money hungry insurance companies and HMO’s. Oh, and in most states, insurance companies/HMO’s cannot be sued for refusing to pay for care. Socialized medicine is not the answer for the US. It would just be a big, unwieldy, all-encompassing HMO, with patients rights still coming secondary to the bottom line dollar.

Oh, and don’t get me even started on malpractice suits…