Remember, Tim knew Mike Mentzer well and worked with Arthur Jones; however, I get the impression that he thought Mentzer went way too far and ruined some otherwise good training concepts.
There are a lot of programs that advocate similar concepts - “Super Squats”, the “Dino Training” stuff, the original Reg Park “5x5” bulk & power routine from the 50’s, the Peary Rader Master Course stuff from the 50’s, HST, and so on.
All of the training material I’ve ever read from the 40’s to 60’s seems to advocate more of a full body multiple times a week approach over a split system.
I’ll add my full body routine for anyone whos interested. Its mostly for athletics. Its basically my own version of tier training and renegade training put together.
Pre Workout(all three days before weights)
Rope work: (2 minutes skip, 20 squats, 20 pushups) no rest repeat 3x)
Hip Mobility: Hurdles, a few times through, see davies book
Tumbling: a few sets of front rolls, back rolls, and cartwheels
DB circuit: 2 x 30 swings
Main lift
Tier one: wave from 70-90% 6 sets of 3
Tier two: dynamic effort 6 sets of 3
tier three: rep effort 2 sets of 20
Monday: T1 Cleans, T2 ballistic bench, T3 lunges
Wedsday: T1 Incline bench, T2 speed squats, T3 DB Snatch
Friday: T1 Dead or Squat, T2 Snatch, T3 Dips or pushups
After the main lift i would do an exercise for back, usualy either pullups or BB rows…3x8 mondays, 3x5 weds, 2x10 fridays…varrying grips everytime.
Then pick one ab exercise for 3 or 4 sets. Usually try to pick something functional…saxon side bends or hanging leg raise with pike, etc
Then maybe if i’m still up to it a short farmers walk or bar hangs for some wgpp.
Tues/Thurs/Sat/Sun…REST, or nice and easy tempo interval run(not HIIT, a tempo run, see CF’s site)
Warmup usualy takes 15-20, tier 1 15 mins, tier 2 10 mins, tier 3 about 7, back takes 5 or 10, abs and wgpp 10 or 15…total time just over an hour.
Alot of you guys will say i’m crazy and that iw as over training but i built up to this all summer long, slowly adding volume, taking a week off every 6 weeks, nutrition was right on, etc.
Critiques more than welcome, would actualy really like you guys to criticise and tell me whats wrong with my set up. Thanks
OK guys, tomorrow here it looks like Im gonna be starting one of these routines…and I think this one just won. It looks like it fits the bill pretty well.
1 work set x 8 reps (after warm-up)for each exercise
Day 1:
Bench
Flyes
Lateral raise
Behind-the-neck press
Squat
Leg ext.
Leg curl
Bar Row
Stand DB curl
Lying tricep ext.
Incline curl
Abs
Calves
Day 2:
Power clean
One-arm row
Pullover
Military press
Behind-the-neck pulldown
Bent over lateral raise
Concentration curl
Tricep kickback
Wrist curl
Lunge
Abs
Calves
Day 3:
Squat
Leg ext.
Leg curl
Deadlift
Bar Row
Incline bench
Close-grip bench
Lateral raise
Overhead DB tri ext.
Seated alternate DB curl
Reverse curl
Bent-over lateral raise
Abs
Calves
I dont know about some of those isolation movements, I think Im just going to end up substituting them for something compound…so I’ll let you know how that goes.
This one seems pretty darn good, and I’ll let you all know how it works. Also, on my days off, I plan on doing Tabata Thrusters/Sprints, or some other form of cardio in the morning. This routine is for fat-loss by the way, and I plan on incorporating HOT-ROX as soon as I get them ordered.
Chris, you originally said you were doing 11 exercises but then cut out the direct arm work. How did you get so many? Where you doing two exercises for some body parts. I came up with nine even with the direct arm work.
Back
quads
Chest
hams
calves
bis
tris
shoulders
abs
[quote]Tom_H wrote:
Chris, you originally said you were doing 11 exercises but then cut out the direct arm work. How did you get so many? [/quote]
I was doing 9 to 11. The 11 day did contain two exercises for the chest, dips and Power Ring flyes. My reasoning was that dips on rings were more triceps-oriented. This was incorrect and extra chest work proved too much. This was the day I became sick at the end of the workout.
This 11 day also included a set of reverse shrugs on the rings (just because I recently discovered this exercise and liked it) and a shoulder exercise. Again, not needed. Lesson learned.
So I killed the second chest movement and the second shoulder movement. Today I repeated the 11 day as a “9 day”. Also, calves were trained in a separate session mainly because I have a seated calf press in my garage and don’t have one at my gym - so actually it was an 8 exercise session.
Much more productive workout too. Went heavier on just about everything. My training partner still got a little sick, but he’s a pussy. (Just kidding, B!)
Hey Chris,
I read through this thread, and I’m just curious as to if you’re going to failure on these sets, or if you’re stopping one-two reps short. I’m guessing it’s the second, but I just wanted to ask you. I’m 24 now, and the last time I did any routine similar to the ones your doing I was about 18, and I definitely gained size and strength.
-Greg
Shugart,
I agree with the 3 full body workouts. Presently I am in a competitive phase for sprint training doing 2 speed sessions per week and 1 speed endurance session per week. These same days I do maintenance weights at 2-3 sets of 2-3 reps for 3 excercises bench, squat, clean pull. Lost no strength or size. This is coupled with medball, pushups, chins, abs, and GHR on days in betwenn the above weight and speed sessions.
All this is straight from Charlie Francis programming. I think it is easier to gain strength using similar excercises 3 times per week.
Thanks for the response. I was just curious if their were certain muscle groups that you felt needed extra emphasis.
I see that you dropped them as part of your learning week. I am doing between 5-8 exercises myself, I usually omit the direct ab and arm work.
Since its only a couple of sets each I was thinking of putting arms and abs back in.
How would you guys classify cleans? I have been doing them as part of my full bodys but not sure if they should count as a back or leg exercise. I read somewhere on this site that any movement that involves the lower body should be classified as a leg exercise but I am not sure if I should row and clean in the same session.
Here is the whole body routine I used when I first got serious about training. I gained a tremendous amount and size and strength on it. It was a M-W-F routine that I got from an issue of Ironman Magazine. It was written by C.S. Sloan who has written some articles for T-Nation.
Monday
Squats 5x5
Bench Press 5x5
Chins or Pulldowns 5x5
Dips 5x10
Alternate Dumbbell Curls 5x10
Wednesday
Deadlifts 5x5
Push Press 5x5
Barbell Curls 5x5
Close Grip Bench Press 5x5
Friday
Squats 4-6x2
Bench Press 4-6x2
Hammer Curls 4-6x2
Incline Dumbbell Press 5x5
Romanian Deadlifts 5x5
I trained calves and abs throughout the week with my own routine whenever I felt like it. Also, I would substitue similar exercises every 4 weeks or so but kept the parameters the same.
Eventually I switched to a split routine once I learned to train with more intensity but I really enjoyed this one.
All you guys who are frightened by the idea of three full-body workouts a week, or who think that doing two sets each of eight or ten exercises is “way too much,” should take a look at the routine Steve Reeves used with apparent great success (and apparently without steroids). He did three exercises per body part, three sets per exercise, three times per week. For biceps, however, he stuck with one exercies–incline dumbell curls–and did eight sets every workout. He rested little between sets, and trained intensely, finishing the entire workout in about 90 minutes or so. Other bodybuilders from the '50s, '60, and '70s made excellent progress with similar programs. In the '70s, when I was too ignorant to know that my muscles wouldn’t grow on frequent, high intensity, fairly high volume workouts, I increased my bench press by 100 pounds in about 12 weeks of thrice-weekly hard benching (along with dips, tricep work, shoulder work, etc.). My training partner, who used dianabol (I never did) and more volume, made even better progress.
[quote]novamcglone wrote:
Hey Chris,
I read through this thread, and I’m just curious as to if you’re going to failure on these sets, or if you’re stopping one-two reps short. -Greg[/quote]
I’m going to failure on the last set of some exercises like pull-ups, but not on things like front squats. That may be a mistake. Just experimenting.
I am starting the 2nd week and I like it so far. I find that the muscles I tend to neglect like calves and biceps get more attention and the more overdone movements like bench and squat get a more balanced emphasis.
I have been doing 9 exercises, 2 sets each. I change the exercise for each body part for each of the three days.
I keep the rep range at 8 reps. Any more than that is like cardio for me after almost a year of 3-5 reps. I find any less than eight and I would need to do more sets and two is a nice change of pace for now.
I know Chris dropped the direct arm work and a couple other superfluous movements leaving his total at 7 exercises. I wanted to see how this is working out for him.
Anybody else have any feedback on these full body workouts?
My question to Chris is how his recovery is going.
[quote]Tom_H wrote:
I know Chris dropped the direct arm work and a couple other superfluous movements leaving his total at 7 exercises. I wanted to see how this is working out for him.
Anybody else have any feedback on these full body workouts?
My question to Chris is how his recovery is going.[/quote]
We decided not to drop the arm work. The other modifications worked fine so we’re keeping direct arm and shoulder work for now. We may end up dropping this though or doing one set each instead of two in the future. Hard to tell in just the second week.
As for recovery, it seems to be going well. And I’m even dieting a little right now. (By “a little” I mean I’ve dropped the weekend cheat meal and am tightening up the diet calorie-wise, but I’m not doing hardcore low carb or anything. In fact, my veg and fruit intake is at an all-time high. But no junk.)
Sometimes there’s a little leftover soreness from Monday’s workout to Wednesday’s, but since different exercises are being used I don’t see this as a problem. I’m basically using Chad Waterbury’s advice of “train through minor soreness”, but usually this isn’t even an issue. Weekends are off totally so recovery there is great.
I’m also using Surge, using a foam roller and “The Stick” massage device, and performing some light cardio on 2-3 of the off days. This cardio helps get the blood pumping and isn’t taken to extreme. As I told my training partner the other day, I do light cardio mainly to offset the fact that as a writer and an editor, I spend most of my day sitting down. I’m also on 4-AD-EC so I have an anabolic helper.
What do you mean by sick? Your workout partner got sick? In what way? Tired? No engery? That sick?
Wayne.
[quote]icklemoley wrote:
What do you mean by sick? Your workout partner got sick? In what way? Tired? No engery? That sick?
Wayne.[/quote]
As in we trained so hard we became dizzy and nauseous, almost threw up, and watched the little birdies fly around our heads after deadlifting.
I have been following a full body routine for the past few weeks and have really been enjoying it. My lifts are all up and I really like the fact that I can work each body part more frequently while keeping the volume low. I have broken out my routine as follows:
Day 1 -
Sprints up stairs for 20 minutes
Abs
Day 2 -
Bench Press - 2 x 8-12
T-Bar Rows - 2 x 8-12
See Saw Press - 2 x 8-12
Normal Grip Pullups - 2 x 8-12
Leg Press - 2 x 8-12
DB Stiff Leg Deads - 2 x 8-12
Sled Calf Raises - 2 x 8-12
Day 3
Off
Day 4 -
Same as Day 1
Day 5 -
Squats - 2 x 8-12
Barbell Stiff Legs - 2 x 8-12
Incline DB Press - 2 x 8-12
Underhand Grip Seated Rows - 2 x 8-12
Front Barbell Press - 2 x 8-12
Parallel Grip Pullups - 2 x 8-12
Standing Calf Raises - 2 x 8-12
Day 6 - Off
Day 7 - Same as Day 1, etc.
A few things I have noticed:
- By adding in sprint days, I need alittle extra rest from weight training, hence the reason for an extra day off between lifting sessions.
- I don’t need direct arm work, since I go as heavy and as a hard as I can on all upper body movements.
- The first set is more of a primer set, while the second is an allout effort.
So far so good, I have been lifting consistently for 14 years and find this program to be a refreshing break and something that I could see myself doing forever (or at least for a few more weeks, till I get bored.
hey everyone, Im back! Heres my routine (the modified Weider one), and after my first full week, I can say that I really like it. For the most part, I do 1 warm-up set, and then 1 set with a goal of 8 reps. On some however, like pull-ups, Squat, Leg Press and Calves, I do a little more. This is how my full program looks now, WITH the alterations.
Full-Body Routine
Day 1: Monday
Chin-Ups
Squat
Bench
Dumbbell Flies
Lateral raise
Behind-the-neck press
Leg Press
Good Mornings
Barbell Row
Stand DB curl
Lying triceps ext.
Incline curl
Hanging Raises
Calves
Day 2: Wednesday
Power clean
Power Upright Rows
Pullover
Military press
Behind neck pull down
Bent over lateral raise
Concentration curl
Elbows out Extensions
Reverse Curls (norm bar)
Lunge
Hanging Raises
Calves
Day 3: Friday
Pull-ups (SS All Day)
Squat
Leg ext.
Leg curl
Dead lift
2 Sets of Pull-ups
Incline bench
Close-grip bench
Front Lateral raise
Overhead DB tri ext.
Seated alternate DB curl
Reverse curl
Bent-over lateral raise
Crunches
Hanging Leg Raises
Calves
Like I said, Im really liking this! Im having a good time, and the best part is that Im usually done in about 45-50 minutes. Keep in mind that this is for fatloss too. I do 3 days of cardio-type training throughout the week also, with 1 day of full rest. Anyone who wants to give this program a go, feel free, considering I yoinked it from a previous poster.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Does anyone dare to try the ultimate minimalist routine:
First 20 minute EDT PR Zone - power clean and push press (this zone is longer because you’re doing two movements - a clean and a press)
Second 15 minute EDT PR Zone - squat
Abs if you want.
80% 1RM, try to get 25 total reps, then add weight.[/quote]
I highly recommend this workout. I picked it up Monday night. I repped out at 25 reps for each PR Zone. I left the gym a bit earlier than usual, to boot.
I did it again tonight. This I don’t recommend. I bumped the weight up for each PR zone. I repped out again at 25, but my legs feel like Jello. You definitely want a day off in between workouts.
This is an awsome workout a for Monday Wednesday Friday routine.
This thread is intriguing, and it really has me thinking. I would like to incorporate compound movements as much as possible in my workout, so I have the following questions:
How would you count power cleans or snatches – as lower body exercises or as shoulder exercises? What about deadlifts – lower body or back?