Should an Ectomorph Train Differently?

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
So, how does the OP know whether he is an ectomorph or an endomorph/mesomorph that doesn’t eat enough? Personal experience. You have to try and experiment before you can even apply the label. Once you have figured out your body, you could assign the appropriate label. It’s just silly.

Actually I agree with this too. Unless you are a fatty who just cannot lose weight, or a naturally broad-shouldered dude who can eat what he wants and stay lean and full, then although the chances are that you are an ecto, you shouldn’t label yourself as such until you have a good few years and a lot of understanding (from experimentation and reading/learning) behind you.

BBB[/quote]

At which point this label serves what purpose? I read your list above about random physical variables, but again, that is simply how all humans are. No one specific way of doing things is right for all people. That’s just life.

We are against these labels not because we are against any form of scientific classification, but because people who are poorly informed (those who recognize very few of those variables) use these labels as a crutch.

Every freaking skinny dude on the site claims they are a “hardgainer” or “ectomorph”…as if there are no pro bodybuilders are huge football players who used to be skinny as well.

These terms are not doing most of these people any good and neither is dankid’s very elementary understanding of them.

[quote]josh86 wrote:
Westclock wrote:
Eating more and heavy weights.

Exactly…so basically to answer the OPs original question. No.[/quote]

Did my compliment inspire the creation of your avatar Josh? Looks awesome side by side. You probably fill with glee every time you look at it (k glee is a gay word how about awesomeness?)

[quote]Professor X wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
So, how does the OP know whether he is an ectomorph or an endomorph/mesomorph that doesn’t eat enough? Personal experience. You have to try and experiment before you can even apply the label. Once you have figured out your body, you could assign the appropriate label. It’s just silly.

Actually I agree with this too. Unless you are a fatty who just cannot lose weight, or a naturally broad-shouldered dude who can eat what he wants and stay lean and full, then although the chances are that you are an ecto, you shouldn’t label yourself as such until you have a good few years and a lot of understanding (from experimentation and reading/learning) behind you.

BBB

At which point this label serves what purpose? I read your list above about random physical variables, but again, that is simply how all humans are. No one specific way of doing things is right for all people. That’s just life.

We are against these labels not because we are against any form of scientific classification, but because people who are poorly informed (those who recognize very few of those variables) use these labels as a crutch.

Every freaking skinny dude on the site claims they are a “hardgainer” or “ectomorph”…as if there are no pro bodybuilders are huge football players who used to be skinny as well.

These terms are not doing most of these people any good and neither is dankid’s very elementary understanding of them.[/quote]

X i see where you guys are coming from, and I did state that I think its a bad idea to use bodytypes as a crutch. Probably the average population should just ignore this stuff, but coaches and trainers can benefit from it. Maybe some of the better educated population can benefit as well. But if there is a person that claims to be a “hardgainer”, and says they “can’t gain weight”, you cant argue that there are basically two possibilities.

  1. They aren’t eating as much as they think they are eating
  2. Their calorie expenditure is more than it needs to be.

I think for most younger guys on the site, its a combination of the two. Most think they are eating 4k+ or think they can gain on 3k cals, and are trying to play basketball 3x a week, do MMA, and do cardio as well.

So in a sense, I dont think the somatypes are that important, but instead some of the generalizations that can go along with them, so that you can make educated guesses based on what you are doing individually to correct the problems.

I can accept that people respond differently to different stimuli. However, I disagree with these generalisations of placing people into one of three body types and then saying “You are x body type, therefore you must train this way.” To say ectomorphs must train one way, and mesomorphs another, is just silly as there are far more variables than this.

And I still think people are overcomplicating the issue.

Yes we are all different, structurally and physiologically, but we all have the capability to adapt and improve. Some people may progress towards their goals faster than others, some may have to work harder, but we all have the capacity to increase muscle tissue and reduce bodyfat. It may not be at the speed we like, but we can all do it.

For example, I had a some molecular biologists perform some genetic tests on myself. Now, a little history, I was on obese kid and as a young adult I lost over 100lbs of fat and remain (relatively) lean to this day. As a fatty everyone here would have called me a typical endomorph. When dieted down, to runt-like status, you all would have called me an ectomorph. The genetic tests that the biologists performed revealed negative allelic variations in the beta 2 adrenergic receptor and the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma 2. These help mediate lipid metabolism and insulin sensitivity through certain mechanism. Genetically, it could suggested that for me lipid metabolism during exercise and insulin sensitivity are compromised. In the exercise lab where I work I’ve had various procedures done on me over the years, to test equipment, during trials etc. Now one test performed, several years ago, reveled that RER values (which can be used to predict the relative contribution of fats and carbs during exercise) revealed that lipid metabolism, for me, was much lower than normal during a submax exercise bout, carbohydrate metabolism was much, much higher. Confirming the above genetic tests.

So, an obesly fat kid with terrible genetics; not conducive to physique improvement it seems.

A few years ago now I dieted down to a true mid-lower single digit bodyfat %

I have a somewhat ectomorphic structure with a small frame and narrow clavicles etc. Some would say that I would not structurally be able to gain a significant amount of lean mass with such an ecto-like structure. I do carry a bit of muscle, not as much as I would like currently, but I am not exactly skinny-fat these days.

My personal stance here, and I do speak from experience, is that we all have an unlimited potential and should just fucking get on with it all.

What worked for me? When dieting, too few calories more activity and heavy lifting. When gaining muscle mass, heavy lifting more calories and lots of patience. The commonality between the two goals was simply passion and commitment. I had a goal, a boatload of motivation and the conviction to see this shit through.

End of the day, this stuff takes time, commitment and a ton of patience. We can all overanalyze and label ourselves as x,y and z. What separates those that succeed is the dedication to see their goals through and the confidence to believe in what you do.

There are no secrets, just hard work.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
So, how does the OP know whether he is an ectomorph or an endomorph/mesomorph that doesn’t eat enough? Personal experience. You have to try and experiment before you can even apply the label. Once you have figured out your body, you could assign the appropriate label. It’s just silly.

Actually I agree with this too. Unless you are a fatty who just cannot lose weight, or a naturally broad-shouldered dude who can eat what he wants and stay lean and full, then although the chances are that you are an ecto, you shouldn’t label yourself as such until you have a good few years and a lot of understanding (from experimentation and reading/learning) behind you.

BBB

At which point this label serves what purpose? I read your list above about random physical variables, but again, that is simply how all humans are. No one specific way of doing things is right for all people. That’s just life.

We are against these labels not because we are against any form of scientific classification, but because people who are poorly informed (those who recognize very few of those variables) use these labels as a crutch.

Every freaking skinny dude on the site claims they are a “hardgainer” or “ectomorph”…as if there are no pro bodybuilders are huge football players who used to be skinny as well.

These terms are not doing most of these people any good and neither is dankid’s very elementary understanding of them.

To use the term ectomorph (or indeed any term) as a stereotypical label is always a bad idea IMO.

But to use the term after several years of understanding you own body through experimentation, as a way of defining some of your essential physiological characteristics, is not necessarily negative, as long as you are not using it as a crutch.

“Know thyself” someone once said. If you appreciate that your body possesses certain characteristics and that these characteristics place you predominantly in the territory of ‘ectomorph’, then I see no real harm in using that label when describing yourself to others, for ease of understanding.

For example, my body loves to burn off muscle. It is a constant struggle for me to maintain my mass. My body does not accumulate fat easily; I don’t have to work hard to stay lean. I associate these two characteristics with being an ectomorphic body type. I’m OK with that and plan around it, not letting it hold me back from realistic goals.

BBB

EDIT: I too am against these labels, when misapplied. However it seemed in this thread that some were denying the very existance of somatotyping, which to my mind is ridiculous.[/quote]

To be clear, I wasnâ??t arguing against itâ??s existence. Mostly Iâ??m arguing against itâ??s usefulness (I also have a problems with their inexactness).

I think to the guy that really pursues the sport, you start out not knowing, and through trial and error figure out themselves. At which point looking back on the data to apply the label is not useful to your training (except as you point out as a short hand way to communicate with others).

I also think itâ??s useless for a newb to try and apply the label to themselves and use that to dictate training, before theyâ??ve figured themselves out.

Everyone is different. You have to adapt to yourself. Everyone should take a look at the same variables when they are having the same problems regardless of somatype. Not gaining? Is it diet, volume, sleep, ect. The progression of questions doesnâ??t change based on â??somatotypeâ??, (the answer may sometimes).But to rule out some of these questions based on your â??typeâ?? would probably lead you astray as much as it would help.

I just donâ??t really see itâ??s use anywhere.

What do you call a carb intolerant ectomorph that eats a lot of carbs? Endomorph.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
The progression of questions doesnâ??t change based on â??somatotypeâ??, (the answer may sometimes).But to rule out some of these questions based on your â??typeâ?? would probably lead you astray as much as it would help.

[/quote]

Doubleduce I agree that the questions do not change. But the most probable solutions do.

If an ecto seems to be having trouble gaining muscle and weight, they can either decrease training or increase calories or both. You’d look at their training and diet to see what they’ve been doing, but most likely it would be decreasing calorie expenditure and increasing calorie intake.

On the other hand an endo that is having trouble losing fat and weight, has pretty much two options. They can expend more calories or take in less. Again you’d look at what they’ve been doing to see what needs to happen. Most of the time, it will be eat less and train more.

So the questions remain the same, and the most probable solutions change. But there are always times that it is different. There are plenty of examples where someone is having trouble losing weight, and you look at what theyve been doing, and theyve been overtraining and only eating 1000 calories.

The solutions to these things aren’t so much based on an individuals physiologic characteristics based on their somatype. That is, there isn’t something biologically present in ectos that requires less volume and more calories. Its more that the fact that they cant gain weight warrants more calories and less volume. (And sure there are some physiologic factors that make this the case, but they probably aren’t going to be changed so why focus on them?)

And I see what you are saying about how regardless of what type someone is most like, the solutions are always the same (Gain muscle - lift weights and eat). But having a better understanding of yourself can help a lot here. Exs: An ecto wanting to gain muscle, should generally not worry about BF and just bulk. They can cut back on cardio all together, possibly cut back on the volume etc. to increase the caloric surplus. A meso, can eat an excess, maybe increase volume or do some cardio, and gain muscle while staying lean, maybe even lose fat in the process. And an endo, might think about a slow bulk, or keeping cardio in to limit fat gain. ((And these are just generalizations based on how these people tend to react. Individual needs would obviously need to be adressed. ex: there may an ecto that responds well to adding extra volume on weights and avoiding cardio etc.))

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
What do you call a carb intolerant ectomorph that eats a lot of carbs? Endomorph.

Lol, I see your point, of course. But I’m pretty sure I can differentiate between a true ecto and a carb intolerant ecto who has OD’d on carbs. It’s all part of ascertaining the clients individual response to macronutrients, as part of a tailored nutritional protocol.

To just look at someone and say to yourself “Oh, he/she must be type X” is ridiculous. Sure, the frame of a person can give strong clues, but until you talk to that person, you’ll be likely to make false assumptions. Which is also what the noob is likely to make - false assumptions about themselves.

BBB[/quote]

…which makes the entire distinction pointless and potentially harmful because there may be 10 people on this site with enough of a formal education and experience actually training people to determine something that complex.

Most people are simply looking in the mirror, saying “I’m skinny” or “I’m fat” and then assigning themselves to a certain box for life.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I’m an ectomorph too.

Hell, we are ALL ectomorphs here!!![/quote]

I saw the pic to prove it…LOL…is there such a thing as a HYPER-ECTOMORPH? …LOL…X, u went from one extreme to the other… To the guy who started this thread, X is living proof that there is a way to put some meat on your “ectomorphic skeleton”…(no pun intended)…i hope you make decent money or have good health coverage, X never tells about all the extra skin he had to have grafted on, to keep it all covered…he’s literally busted apart at the seams…LMAO

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Dave Rogerson wrote:
There are no secrets, just hard work.

[/quote]

I feel the old adage “Dont train hard, train smart” has been helping me most. I’d probabl get even better results if I were able to convince myself to do less in the gym and take longer rest breaks.

I’ve got my best results from training for a few years to the point where I know my body and what it will do when faced with different stimuluses. I think anyone dedicated that will put the time in each week will, in the course of a few years be able to find what works and what doesn’t. If the OP kept hitting the gym and experimenting in the kitchen, he’d know what would work for his body if he actually cared enough. Everyones worried about instant gratification, but I’m at the point where I feel I’m pretty set on knowing what I need to do in the gym for the rest of my life in order to grow bigger and stronger. Obviously there will be some bumps in the road but if it wasn’t for trying new things in the gym and really reavaluating my goals and training things wouldn’t be like this.

I remember the day back in febuary when I said to myself, why the fuck would I do pulldowns seated rows and some hammer machines for back, if I want a big back I need to do some of those fucking money maker exercises, weighted chins, db or bb rows, dead or rack pulls, not this pussy shit. I have approached all my muscles like this and I really don’t know when the last time was I wasn’t progressing in someway.

Help yourself first because you can’t always rely on others. It’s nice when someone lends you a hand but never expect that shit or take it for granted. So many people would be doing so much better if the actually tried and didn’t listen to anything more than a dude at the gym or some article talking about form.

I think the question should be, should different people train differently? and the answer is yes. It’s not really about how an ectomorph or endomorph should train. It’s more about how each individual should. For instance some guy like barbell bench more then dumbell etc. At the end of the day it’s about finding what movements work for YOUR body and yield you the best results.

[quote]SkyNett wrote:
cyruseven75 wrote:

good luck dingle berry, remember water is for pussies!

I don’t get posts like this - the guy asked a legitimate question - why mock him?

I mean, being in this game a long time, I think it’s easy to become jaded and think that everyone that asks a question like this should know better, but realize that many people really don’t know.

They’re not trolling, they don’t deserve to be verbally abused - they just truly don’t know about this stuff - even the basics. So, I’d think it would be more beneficial to everyone involved to either give some decent advice, or just don’t say anything at all… [/quote]

x2, but this is the net, The one place even douche’s can be men.

there is truth to it, how about this why dont you go try it and then let us know how it went 2-3 months from now