Shooting On Fort Hood

Off Topic
141

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
kheaslim wrote:
Whether he is Jihad, or just some fucked up inivisual has nothing to do with “invading” a country.

So Muslims actually invading and doing those things would NOT be WAY worse than this shooting for “perpetuating anti-Islamic prejudices in the States” – because I think you are crazy if you think that.[/quote]

What!? I didn’t say or even hint towards the fact that it would not be way worse. What I said was the shooting and this discussion has nothing to do with the war.

Bringing up the soldiers we have in the middle east and whether or not those who live there like it has nothing to do with this shooting. Thats why I said this discussion will get retarded if we start discussing the war and how terrible it would be if our country was invaded.

Read what I’m saying and you might understand that I did NOT say that an invasion wouldn’t be as bad. Neither has anything to do with the other.

142

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

That doesn’t exist anymore in our society…lol. But in our current atmosphere,waiting on all the facts is asking a lot of people considering what is known. [/quote]

That’s true…sad, but true. Even so, there is a distinction to be made between people that are genuinely fearful of the situation and those that just want to sow dissent. They won’t look at the facts no matter how accessible they are…

Totally. It is difficult to build an accurate view of things when the reports seem to contradict themselves so much. Has it been confirmed that Hasan was the only shooter? I read that there were three others in custody but they’ve now been released. It would certainly change things if he wasn’t alone.

143

[quote]roybot wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:

That doesn’t exist anymore in our society…lol. But in our current atmosphere,waiting on all the facts is asking a lot of people considering what is known.

That’s true…sad, but true. Even so, there is a distinction to be made between people that are genuinely fearful of the situation and those that just want to sow dissent. They won’t look at the facts no matter how accessible they are…

I pretty much jumped to conclusions myself…but as more and more is becoming fact…I haven’t quite made my mind up about Hasan. But the pendulum does swing further one way more than the other.

Totally. It is difficult to build an accurate view of things when the reports seem to contradict themselves so much. Has it been confirmed that Hasan was the only shooter? I read that there were three others in custody but they’ve now been released. It would certainly change things if he wasn’t alone.

[/quote]

Yes,they pretty have stood by that he was the only shooter. And it’s pretty possible with the type of handgun he used.

I still wonder what it was about the others that made them take them into custody in the first place…but there was so much hysteria and confusion.

Well,my initial assumptions were spawned from my emotional response to this…as this all happened in my own backyard…and I was concerned about many friends on base.

I will definitely not be surprised if facts lead to what most assume…but I’m still holding my reservations.

144

[quote]“suspect endured work pressure and ethnic taunts”

“Maybe it built up together – the harassment, too many patients, the workload, the tragedies his patients brought to him,” said the 65-year-old retired real estate broker. “Whatever it was, it must have been big pressure, something terrible he couldn’t handle.”[/quote]

Racism could be as much to blame as anything else.

145

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

Yes,they pretty have stood by that he was the only shooter. And it’s pretty possible with the type of handgun he used.

I still wonder what it was about the others that made them take them into custody in the first place…but there was so much hysteria and confusion. [/quote]

That occurred to me as well. It seemed…unusual, to say the least.

[quote]
Well,my initial assumptions were spawned from my emotional response to this…as this all happened in my own backyard…and I was concerned about many friends on base.

I will definitely not be surprised if facts lead to what most assume…but I’m still holding my reservations.[/quote]

It’s natural to react the way you did. I didn’t rule out that possibility, either. But the uncertainty and confusion makes it ideal for certain individuals to turn the situation to their own advantage (some of whom have already tried on this thread, so imagine what it’s like out in ‘the real world’) - which was why I talked about reserving judgement. It was really more about not letting others influence your opinion than reacting instinctively (which is completely understandable given the horror of the situation).

Edit: just as a general afterthought, a bigot cannot react instinctively, because they’ve already formed an opinion and refuse to change it.

Whereas somebody that’s genuinely open-minded is willing to adjust their opinion as the facts unfold.

It’s an important distinction worth mentioning, just so it doesn’t look like I’m critcizing everyone just for having an opinion…

146

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I like how the discussion devolved into an argument about which military base is biggest.

Wow, way to wade through all the BS and cut right to the heart of the matter, guys.

First,nobody is arguing. Second,enlighten us as to what the heart of the matter is…that hasn’t or is currently being discussed.

Just because the “discussion” isn’t staying on the path you feel it needs to be doesn’t make anything discussed about Fort Hood any less relevant to this thread.

Besides,your comments and undertones here(and evident in PRCal’s thread) about soldier’s being nothing but murder’s and killing innocent Muslims,etc are devolving this thread.

I wouldn’t want anyone to think you are justifying and sympathizing with extremist Muslims…and even worse,the shooter in this incident. OR that you don’t feel for the victims in this because you feel soldier’s are not innocent to begin with. Afterall,you do say they are murderers,right?

So,please…don’t give us your BS.

[/quote]
I don’t justify any killers. Muslim or American – uniformed or not.

And yes, Soldiers are professional murderers. That is what war is all about. To believe otherwise is naive.

147

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I like how the discussion devolved into an argument about which military base is biggest.

Wow, way to wade through all the BS and cut right to the heart of the matter, guys.

First,nobody is arguing. Second,enlighten us as to what the heart of the matter is…that hasn’t or is currently being discussed.

Just because the “discussion” isn’t staying on the path you feel it needs to be doesn’t make anything discussed about Fort Hood any less relevant to this thread.

Besides,your comments and undertones here(and evident in PRCal’s thread) about soldier’s being nothing but murder’s and killing innocent Muslims,etc are devolving this thread.

I wouldn’t want anyone to think you are justifying and sympathizing with extremist Muslims…and even worse,the shooter in this incident. OR that you don’t feel for the victims in this because you feel soldier’s are not innocent to begin with. Afterall,you do say they are murderers,right?

So,please…don’t give us your BS.

I don’t justify any killers. Muslim or American – uniformed or not.

And yes, Soldiers are professional murderers. That is what war is all about. To believe otherwise is naive.[/quote]

Muslim OR American? Interesting.

So war is about professionally performed murder? Nothing else? Never runs deeper than straight up murder for the sake of murder?

I am still confused; why was the war even brought up, an why was this incident compared to an invasion to a country?

148

[quote]kheaslim wrote:
Muslim OR American? Interesting.

So war is about professionally performed murder? Nothing else? Never runs deeper than straight up murder for the sake of murder?

I am still confused; why was the war even brought up, an why was this incident compared to an invasion to a country?
[/quote]

Why was his faith brought up? Why was his profession brought up? Perspective?

We are rational creatures trying to rationalize something that cannot be rationalized.

We will never know what was going through this man’s head or why.

Though I find it pretty telling that this man spent all day prescribing drugs and lying to young men who didn’t want to kill anymore to convince them that killing in the name of “defense” is a good thing to do. Maybe he just couldn’t swallow the lies anymore and the guilt caught up with him.

Who knows?! I have my theories and that is all they will ever be.

149

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
kheaslim wrote:
Muslim OR American? Interesting.

So war is about professionally performed murder? Nothing else? Never runs deeper than straight up murder for the sake of murder?

I am still confused; why was the war even brought up, an why was this incident compared to an invasion to a country?

Why was his faith brought up? Why was his profession brought up? Perspective?

We are rational creatures trying to rationalize something that cannot be rationalized.

We will never know what was going through this man’s head or why.

Though I find it pretty telling that this man spent all day prescribing drugs and lying to young men who didn’t want to kill anymore to convince them that killing in the name of “defense” is a good thing to do. Maybe he just couldn’t swallow the lies anymore and the guilt caught up with him.

Who knows?! I have my theories and that is all they will ever be.[/quote]

Ok, I can agree with this.

I think his faith was brought up because he screamed “Glory to God” in Arabic as he was shooting the victims. Although this doesn’t prove it was religion-based, it does make it worth bringing up as a definate possibility.

150

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I like how the discussion devolved into an argument about which military base is biggest.

Wow, way to wade through all the BS and cut right to the heart of the matter, guys.

First,nobody is arguing. Second,enlighten us as to what the heart of the matter is…that hasn’t or is currently being discussed.

Just because the “discussion” isn’t staying on the path you feel it needs to be doesn’t make anything discussed about Fort Hood any less relevant to this thread.

Besides,your comments and undertones here(and evident in PRCal’s thread) about soldier’s being nothing but murder’s and killing innocent Muslims,etc are devolving this thread.

I wouldn’t want anyone to think you are justifying and sympathizing with extremist Muslims…and even worse,the shooter in this incident. OR that you don’t feel for the victims in this because you feel soldier’s are not innocent to begin with. Afterall,you do say they are murderers,right?

So,please…don’t give us your BS.

I don’t justify any killers. Muslim or American – uniformed or not.

And yes, Soldiers are professional murderers. That is what war is all about. To believe otherwise is naive.[/quote]

So what happened the other day was just a murderer killing murderers?? No big deal,right?

And when you make sarcastic comments like…“What?! No cheering for a soldier murdering other people…oh wait, he wasn’t in Iraq or Afghanistan and he was…gasp! A MUSLIM!!!”

…you give the tone that “justice was served” here at Fort Hood. Surely doesn’t paint a good picture of you. Just saying. Obviously,you have a serious chip on your shoulder concerning the military…just like Hasan.

151

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
So what happened the other day was just a murderer killing murderers?? No big deal,right?

And when you make sarcastic comments like…“What?! No cheering for a soldier murdering other people…oh wait, he wasn’t in Iraq or Afghanistan and he was…gasp! A MUSLIM!!!”
[/quote]

Well, come on! In one circumstance we wrap yellow ribbons around our trees and praise “our boys” as heros and then when they come home and do it – suddenly the bigger picture comes into view but no one wants to look at it. And maybe not necessarily with this one incident but others like it. This is just one of many more that is going to happen because they are witnessing some seriously fucked up shit going on in the world and there is no sensible way for them to deal with it mentally. PTSD is NOT treatable.

People are fucked up as it is and when we enable them to behave certain ways…they inevitably do. Bang! Bang! Bang!

Duck and cover. Get used to it.

The chip on my shoulder is toward the attitude of the American people in regard to the US military.

There is no way justice will ever be served for all the murder going on in the world and it isn’t my place to dish it out, anyway.

Killing is wrong.

152

Military men defend their country just like we defend our homes. If that makes me a murderer then so be it. I will not sit idly by and wait for something to happen. If there are men in my back yards with guns I’m not going to wait for them to come into my house. If there are people trying to attack the US I’m not going to wait for them to start. They have already declared intent, therefore we ARE defending our country. I don’t care what race or religion you are. You threaten me, my family, my country then feel free to call me a murderer!

153

Technically, all Lifty said is in no way different then what Jesus said. ‘Live by the sword, die by the sword’, that is.

I think, it helps an army tremendously if a war cause is believed to be just and honourable.
We can discuss here on T-Nation endlessly if that’s the case in Iraq/istan, but that loon certainly didn’t.

p.s.
Speaking of murder, did Orion’s virtual presence just get annihilated by some ex-army mod?

154

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
So what happened the other day was just a murderer killing murderers?? No big deal,right?

And when you make sarcastic comments like…“What?! No cheering for a soldier murdering other people…oh wait, he wasn’t in Iraq or Afghanistan and he was…gasp! A MUSLIM!!!”

Well, come on! In one circumstance we wrap yellow ribbons around our trees and praise “our boys” as heros and then when they come home and do it – suddenly the bigger picture comes into view but no one wants to look at it. And maybe not necessarily with this one incident but others like it. This is just one of many more that is going to happen because they are witnessing some seriously fucked up shit going on in the world and there is no sensible way for them to deal with it mentally. PTSD is NOT treatable.

People are fucked up as it is and when we enable them to behave certain ways…they inevitably do. Bang! Bang! Bang!

Duck and cover. Get used to it.

…you give the tone that “justice was served” here at Fort Hood. Surely doesn’t paint a good picture of you. Just saying. Obviously,you have a serious chip on your shoulder concerning the military…just like Hasan.

The chip on my shoulder is toward the attitude of the American people in regard to the US military.

There is no way justice will ever be served for all the murder going on in the world and it isn’t my place to dish it out, anyway.

Killing is wrong.[/quote]

You’re preacher to the choir with me…I see and hear everyday the effects of PTSD and other behavior resulting from combat. I just don’t see how all of this applies to this particular situation.

NOR do I see how any of this gives you the credit to make assumptions and take jabs about all military soldiers…or assume that we “military-glorifying” Americans don’t see the “bigger picture” when it comes how fucked up these guys/gals can be after coming home. Like I said,you’re preaching to the choir.

You get so caught up in trying to rationale and justify your own feelings that you lose sight of any other possible views in these matters…and is why you can’t understand the attitudes of others. And therefore,just make your own assumptions.

EDIT

I must say that the last bit is not just you…I’m addressing you,but you’re not the only one guilty of that…as I have been myself. BUT when you take all YOUR specific feelings and chip on your shoulder to try and rationalize this situation,it makes it seem as if YOU don’t view these victims…as victims.

155

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
Military men defend their country just like we defend our homes. If that makes me a murderer then so be it. I will not sit idly by and wait for something to happen. If there are men in my back yards with guns I’m not going to wait for them to come into my house. If there are people trying to attack the US I’m not going to wait for them to start. They have already declared intent, therefore we ARE defending our country. I don’t care what race or religion you are. You threaten me, my family, my country then feel free to call me a murderer![/quote]

Historically, “military men” weren’t supposed to defend. The earliest standing armies (probably Assyrians) were marching quite a bit to build an empire.

156

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Killing is wrong.[/quote]

Yes it is. But if you want to wax philosophical about it, all forms of civilization, without exception, are built and developed through killing in one form or another. Do you honestly think that our current society isn’t built on a foundation of corpses?

If you really want to look at the “big picture”, the Fort Hood shootings are gonna make the American public shit in their collective britches. Why? Because no matter what their opinions of the Iraqiganistan wars, they still depend on the soldiers to offer them security.

That confidence is now gone, because the enemy has effectively arrived on home turf and attacked from within. That may not be the reality, but I assure you the media will spin it as a miniature 9/11…

157

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

PTSD is NOT treatable.

[/quote]

So no person who has ever received any sort of treatment for PTSD has improved? Ever? They all just stay the same? Even the ones with access to boats & boobs? Hmm…good to know.

I train soldiers from Fort Hood and I love love love love them. They are good men & women. I consider it a privilege to work with them. So that’s my “American attitude” toward soldiers.

Big Boss, I’m glad you’re safe and well & hope your friends are all ok too.

158

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
Military men defend their country just like we defend our homes. If that makes me a murderer then so be it. I will not sit idly by and wait for something to happen. If there are men in my back yards with guns I’m not going to wait for them to come into my house.

If there are people trying to attack the US I’m not going to wait for them to start. They have already declared intent, therefore we ARE defending our country. I don’t care what race or religion you are. You threaten me, my family, my country then feel free to call me a murderer![/quote]

Exactly. Well said.

159

When I read the lates today, this really stood out for me;

Munley - a petite woman with a love of hunting, surfing and other outdoor sports - bolted from her car, yanked out her pistol and shot at Hasan. He turned on her and began to fire. She ran toward him, continuing to fire, and both she and Hasan went down with several bullet wounds, Medley said.

The above was said by Chuck Medley, the director of emergency services at the base, speaking about the police officer who stopped Hasan. It is scary to think of how many more victims there could have been.

There have been lots of discussions about police on these forums and a lot of negative things said, but anytime there is an active shooter situation it’s police who are running towards the bullets instead of away. This officer is my new hero! I pray that I could be as brave as her if I am ever in that situation.

160

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Killing is wrong.[/quote]

I would have to disagree that killing is always wrong. As Rand discussed, the initiation of force between rational men is wrong, however using force to defend against the initiation of force is perfectly acceptable.