Shaming People

Off Topic
141

@ Cortes: I don’t want to put words into your mouth or stray off-topic here, but I am curious about something. It seems to me that you value certain parts of human nature that seek to promote the health of society as a whole. Strength over weakness and that sort of thing. Is this a fair assumption?

Yet, I notice that you are also someone who values Christianity and the teachings of Christ. Forgive me if I start sounding a little too Nietzschean for you here, but don’t you find yourself in some sort of ethical, moral conflict with these things? I’m no expert on Christianity, although I did attend a Catholic school for 9 years and attended a Christian university (Pepperdine), so I’m no fool on the subject.

I was always under the assumption that Jesus’ teachings placed import on the opposite of the values I assumed you value in my first paragraph. The meek shall inherit the Earth, turn the other cheek, and the fact that Jesus offered literally no resistance toward those who wanted to crucify Him are all values that seem to place more import on the opposite of strength and the sort of values that would ostensibly continue the existence of a healthy society.

It’s what Nietzsche called the transvaluation of morality. How do you reconcile these two sets of principles? I, too, am not trying to play “gotcha” and am only curious to hear your opinion on the matter.

142

[quote]Cortes wrote:
My (tentative) final word on the subject: Shame doesn’t have to necessarily be verbal, or vituperative, or even conscious.

But what we have now is a complete reversal of standards that have been considered normal for basically the whole of human history.

We have ever younger girls who are encouraged by social media to indulge in their natural inclination to narcissism, posting photo after photo of themselves in provocative, sometimes downright pornographic photos. They are hooted and go-girled and encouraged by their friends, male and female, and rewarded for degrading themselves. We have sexual predators capitalizing upon this, encouraging these same girls, some of them not yet even teenagers, to strip and dance and pose and expose themselves; and sometimes, to meet up.

We have girls who should not be considered sexually attractive by any rational standard posting pouty mouthed pictures of themselves flaunting their bare, drooping potbellies and exposed ass-cracks, brimming with adipose. They too, cheered and rewarded with comments like, “Sexy mama!” “Lookin hawt!” and “Moar!!1!”

We have a society where people are afraid to criticize ANY act or lifestyle for fear of being branded as “hateful” and “bigoted,” and who are screamed and shamed to Coventry by the current mob, who’s motto is “Anything-goes, so long as we says soes.”

One thing that appears to have been forgotten in this thread is that shame is the necessary counterpart to humility. And now that the former has all but disappeared, so too the latter.

[/quote]

When it comes to narcissism in society and all its inherent ills, you’ll get no argument from me. I wholeheartedly agree that society has become overly-narcissistic. I disagree that society as a whole has actively accepted the sort of behavior you described. Social media has simply given a voice to those who seek to normalize said behavior, but that does not negate the fact that there are still many, many people who are outraged about this behavior, and are vocal about it. There has been quite the uproar over the way certain students behaved on social media regarding the plight of the victim in the Steubenville rape case out in Ohio, for instance. Correct me if I’m wrong, but there has also been legislation introduced at various govt levels to regulate or crack down on a lot of the over-sexualization of prepubescent teens that occurs on social media.

There’s always been exhibitionists who shouldn’t be showing off what they don’t actually have. I grew up near Santa Cruz, CA and a lot of the beaches just north of town have been frequented by nudists who have no business wearing anything but a full-length parka in public long before social media ever existed.

It just seems that this has gained more traction recently because social media and the Internet has simply given them a much larger voice than ever before. Don’t mistake higher visibility for higher acceptance.

It may seem contradictory for me to say that society has become narcissistic but not anymore accepting of such narcissism, but I think the reality is that we have ALL become more narcissistic. Your own avatar suggests as much, as does a lot of what goes on in this website in general, especially back when we still had the T-Vixen thread in SAMA. That was as narcissistic as anything you’ll see from the segments of society you condemn.

Anyways, my point is that while narcissism is definitely rampant in this society, as it has gone up I simply don’t see the level of acceptance of certain forms of narcissism gaining more traction than narcissism as a whole has. Totally unverifiable, I know, but that’s the feeling I get, and since we’re talking about the U.S. here and only one of us lives in the U.S., I think I speak from a position of more authority than you do in this case. Which isn’t a very authoritative position in and of itself, but still…

Regarding shaming, I understand where you are coming from it, but without offering a legitimate solution and actively helping people use that solution to achieve the end goal, shaming is a redundant exercise that only worsens the situation, not betters it.

143

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

You’ve simply gone from one extreme to the other. And you’re a bit misinformed, as usual. Single mothers in the past WERE shunned, yes. But that went for ALL single mothers, not just the ones who were incapable of successfully raising a child.

The difference today is that we don’t necessarily shun single mothers, nor should we if they are capable of raising a well-rounded, well-adjusted child. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Where you err is that you equate the two. Yes, MOST single mothers don’t do so well. But not ALL single mothers fail.

As far as welcoming and normalizing “them” I don’t know if you mean failed single mothers or ALL single mothers. The fact that we offer programs that are non-judgmental is a natural result of the culture of shame that previously surrounded them. The pendulum swings both ways, Raj. Those who shunned single mothers right out of society are the ones who started swinging that pendulum in the first place, so the shaming thing is as much to blame as the culture you are so quick to condemn. The culture you condemn is your own creation, one that will manifest itself in other forms the more that we shame people.
[/quote]

You’d think that someone who has been posting on this board for 4 fucking years would have mastered the quote function by now.

Anyways, after reading this tripe, I can only conclude you are completely ignorant or extremely delusional.

All the data on this subject is on my side. Children from single mother households contribute disproportionately to crime, are much more prone to mental disorders, sexual promiscuity and substance abuse. Take 5 min and actually do some goddamn research. Shit, ever wonder where the term daddy issues arose from?

For every hooker with a heart of gold raising the next Bill Gates completely on her own there are 15 illegitimate orclings raping, murdering and abusing drugs and alcohol.

So no, if the handful of capable single moms get squeezed in the shaming process, it matters not.

144

[quote]Cortes wrote:

We have ever younger girls who are encouraged by social media to indulge in their natural inclination to narcissism, posting photo after photo of themselves in provocative, sometimes downright pornographic photos. They are hooted and go-girled and encouraged by their friends, male and female, and rewarded for degrading themselves. We have sexual predators capitalizing upon this, encouraging these same girls, some of them not yet even teenagers, to strip and dance and pose and expose themselves; and sometimes, to meet up.
[/quote]

And this is another reason why the average hot girls on average give so much shit. Along with the artificially inflated number of suitors lined up for these girls due to the low amount of competition, their egos get another boost from 100+ likes on facebook, 50+ retweets on twitter from members of the opposite. These girls are being treated like they cured cancer.

There’s basically no natural predator left for the female ego.

145

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

You’ve simply gone from one extreme to the other. And you’re a bit misinformed, as usual. Single mothers in the past WERE shunned, yes. But that went for ALL single mothers, not just the ones who were incapable of successfully raising a child.

The difference today is that we don’t necessarily shun single mothers, nor should we if they are capable of raising a well-rounded, well-adjusted child. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Where you err is that you equate the two. Yes, MOST single mothers don’t do so well. But not ALL single mothers fail.

As far as welcoming and normalizing “them” I don’t know if you mean failed single mothers or ALL single mothers. The fact that we offer programs that are non-judgmental is a natural result of the culture of shame that previously surrounded them. The pendulum swings both ways, Raj. Those who shunned single mothers right out of society are the ones who started swinging that pendulum in the first place, so the shaming thing is as much to blame as the culture you are so quick to condemn. The culture you condemn is your own creation, one that will manifest itself in other forms the more that we shame people.
[/quote]

You’d think that someone who has been posting on this board for 4 fucking years would have mastered the quote function by now.

Anyways, after reading this tripe, I can only conclude you are completely ignorant or extremely delusional.

All the data on this subject is on my side. Children from single mother households contribute disproportionately to crime, are much more prone to mental disorders, sexual promiscuity and substance abuse. Take 5 min and actually do some goddamn research. Shit, ever wonder where the term daddy issues arose from?

For every hooker with a heart of gold raising the next Bill Gates completely on her own there are 15 illegitimate orclings raping, murdering and abusing drugs and alcohol.

So no, if the handful of capable single moms get squeezed in the shaming process, it matters not.[/quote]

Now I know I’ve struck a nerve with you.

Research is immaterial to my point. The evidence is on MY side. I acknowledged that MOST single mothers don’t do so well raising their children. But not ALL single mothers have this problem. If we take your approach, we would be shaming the successful ones as well as the failed ones. The “hooker with the heart of gold” who raises a successful child shouldn’t be shamed, period. She’s doing well, why would we discourage her efforts?

You want to know why many of those single-parent children get into drugs and crime? Because they grow up from an early age being told that they are destined for this anyways by people like you. People like you give them an excuse to not fight against the long odds they face.

And for the record, I’ve done research into this subject. Except that, unlike you, my research involves the actual fucking world and not some cursory Google search. I teach kids who come from those sorts of backgrounds, I know many people in recovery who are single parents and I know their children and what they went through. Many of the people I work with in recovery are themselves single children. My research is grounded in actual life experiences, something you clearly know nothing about and have taken painstaking steps to make more than obvious to me with your lack of compassion for those who come from less fortunate circumstances than yourself. I’m a fool for expecting anything less from someone whose ancestry is rooted in the caste system.

Get out into the world and work with the less fortunate for a little while, Raj. It might give you some actual perspective instead of the pseudo-intellectual view of the world you’ve built for yourself from the comfort and safety of your keyboard.

146

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
@ Cortes: I don’t want to put words into your mouth or stray off-topic here, but I am curious about something. It seems to me that you value certain parts of human nature that seek to promote the health of society as a whole. Strength over weakness and that sort of thing. Is this a fair assumption?

Yet, I notice that you are also someone who values Christianity and the teachings of Christ. Forgive me if I start sounding a little too Nietzschean for you here, but don’t you find yourself in some sort of ethical, moral conflict with these things? I’m no expert on Christianity, although I did attend a Catholic school for 9 years and attended a Christian university (Pepperdine), so I’m no fool on the subject.

I was always under the assumption that Jesus’ teachings placed import on the opposite of the values I assumed you value in my first paragraph. The meek shall inherit the Earth, turn the other cheek, and the fact that Jesus offered literally no resistance toward those who wanted to crucify Him are all values that seem to place more import on the opposite of strength and the sort of values that would ostensibly continue the existence of a healthy society.

It’s what Nietzsche called the transvaluation of morality. How do you reconcile these two sets of principles? I, too, am not trying to play “gotcha” and am only curious to hear your opinion on the matter.[/quote]

Did you miss the part of the Bible where Jesus goes through the Temple kicking over tables and lashing people with a make-shift whip?

The Bible never teaches, NEVER teaches that we are to passively sit by and allow evil or injustice to run rampant. Turn the other cheek is a HUGELY misunderstood passage that admonished us to resist the temptation to become the same as our enemy. It doesn’t mean you should meekly sit by while he slaughters your family.

I’m not going to get into a discussion of Biblical apologetics on GAL, but I have spent a considerable amount of time both studying my religion and examining my beliefs and actions. Sure, I fail to remain true, in my actions, to the standards established by Jesus Christ. All the time. Damn near every day. My beliefs, however, as far as I have been able to determine, are right in line with those of the Catholic Church.

And before anyone posts, I know there’s actually no God and the Catholic Church is comprised solely of pedophiles and we also hold the puppet strings of the Illuminati, so anyone getting a boner to start sniping at the Church can save it. I’m not taking the bait. There are about 20 threads at PWI dedicated to this if that’s your interest.

(And in case it’s not clear, I did not think that’s what you were doing with this post, DB).

147

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
My (tentative) final word on the subject: Shame doesn’t have to necessarily be verbal, or vituperative, or even conscious.

But what we have now is a complete reversal of standards that have been considered normal for basically the whole of human history.

We have ever younger girls who are encouraged by social media to indulge in their natural inclination to narcissism, posting photo after photo of themselves in provocative, sometimes downright pornographic photos. They are hooted and go-girled and encouraged by their friends, male and female, and rewarded for degrading themselves. We have sexual predators capitalizing upon this, encouraging these same girls, some of them not yet even teenagers, to strip and dance and pose and expose themselves; and sometimes, to meet up.

We have girls who should not be considered sexually attractive by any rational standard posting pouty mouthed pictures of themselves flaunting their bare, drooping potbellies and exposed ass-cracks, brimming with adipose. They too, cheered and rewarded with comments like, “Sexy mama!” “Lookin hawt!” and “Moar!!1!”

We have a society where people are afraid to criticize ANY act or lifestyle for fear of being branded as “hateful” and “bigoted,” and who are screamed and shamed to Coventry by the current mob, who’s motto is “Anything-goes, so long as we says soes.”

One thing that appears to have been forgotten in this thread is that shame is the necessary counterpart to humility. And now that the former has all but disappeared, so too the latter.

[/quote]

When it comes to narcissism in society and all its inherent ills, you’ll get no argument from me. I wholeheartedly agree that society has become overly-narcissistic. I disagree that society as a whole has actively accepted the sort of behavior you described. Social media has simply given a voice to those who seek to normalize said behavior, but that does not negate the fact that there are still many, many people who are outraged about this behavior, and are vocal about it. There has been quite the uproar over the way certain students behaved on social media regarding the plight of the victim in the Steubenville rape case out in Ohio, for instance. Correct me if I’m wrong, but there has also been legislation introduced at various govt levels to regulate or crack down on a lot of the over-sexualization of prepubescent teens that occurs on social media.

There’s always been exhibitionists who shouldn’t be showing off what they don’t actually have. I grew up near Santa Cruz, CA and a lot of the beaches just north of town have been frequented by nudists who have no business wearing anything but a full-length parka in public long before social media ever existed.

It just seems that this has gained more traction recently because social media and the Internet has simply given them a much larger voice than ever before. Don’t mistake higher visibility for higher acceptance.

It may seem contradictory for me to say that society has become narcissistic but not anymore accepting of such narcissism, but I think the reality is that we have ALL become more narcissistic. Your own avatar suggests as much, as does a lot of what goes on in this website in general, especially back when we still had the T-Vixen thread in SAMA. That was as narcissistic as anything you’ll see from the segments of society you condemn.

Anyways, my point is that while narcissism is definitely rampant in this society, as it has gone up I simply don’t see the level of acceptance of certain forms of narcissism gaining more traction than narcissism as a whole has. Totally unverifiable, I know, but that’s the feeling I get, and since we’re talking about the U.S. here and only one of us lives in the U.S., I think I speak from a position of more authority than you do in this case. Which isn’t a very authoritative position in and of itself, but still…

Regarding shaming, I understand where you are coming from it, but without offering a legitimate solution and actively helping people use that solution to achieve the end goal, shaming is a redundant exercise that only worsens the situation, not betters it.[/quote]

Actual final word, I have family over and I’m being selfish with my time:

There is a difference between pride in achievement and wanton self-aggrandizement. We should encourage the former, and stamp out the latter.

Been fun going back and forth with you again, DB. You make me want to tear my hair out, sometimes, but you certainly do stimulate my brain and challenge me to defend my beliefs. Good exercise for the brain.

148

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
@ Cortes: I don’t want to put words into your mouth or stray off-topic here, but I am curious about something. It seems to me that you value certain parts of human nature that seek to promote the health of society as a whole. Strength over weakness and that sort of thing. Is this a fair assumption?

Yet, I notice that you are also someone who values Christianity and the teachings of Christ. Forgive me if I start sounding a little too Nietzschean for you here, but don’t you find yourself in some sort of ethical, moral conflict with these things? I’m no expert on Christianity, although I did attend a Catholic school for 9 years and attended a Christian university (Pepperdine), so I’m no fool on the subject.

I was always under the assumption that Jesus’ teachings placed import on the opposite of the values I assumed you value in my first paragraph. The meek shall inherit the Earth, turn the other cheek, and the fact that Jesus offered literally no resistance toward those who wanted to crucify Him are all values that seem to place more import on the opposite of strength and the sort of values that would ostensibly continue the existence of a healthy society.

It’s what Nietzsche called the transvaluation of morality. How do you reconcile these two sets of principles? I, too, am not trying to play “gotcha” and am only curious to hear your opinion on the matter.[/quote]

Did you miss the part of the Bible where Jesus goes through the Temple kicking over tables and lashing people with a make-shift whip?

The Bible never teaches, NEVER teaches that we are to passively sit by and allow evil or injustice to run rampant. Turn the other cheek is a HUGELY misunderstood passage that admonished us to resist the temptation to become the same as our enemy. It doesn’t mean you should meekly sit by while he slaughters your family.

I’m not going to get into a discussion of Biblical apologetics on GAL, but I have spent a considerable amount of time both studying my religion and examining my beliefs and actions. Sure, I fail to remain true, in my actions, to the standards established by Jesus Christ. All the time. Damn near every day. My beliefs, however, as far as I have been able to determine, are right in line with those of the Catholic Church.

And before anyone posts, I know there’s actually no God and the Catholic Church is comprised solely of pedophiles and we also hold the puppet strings of the Illuminati, so anyone getting a boner to start sniping at the Church can save it. I’m not taking the bait. There are about 20 threads at PWI dedicated to this if that’s your interest.

(And in case it’s not clear, I did not think that’s what you were doing with this post, DB). [/quote]

Baptized, confirmed and the sponsor of my cousin when he was confirmed. I’m also the godfather to both of my nieces. So you’re preaching to the choir here. I have NO intention of getting into anything of substance over in PWI on the matter. Those threads go absolutely nowhere. I happened to peruse The Bible thread earlier and noticed that the last several pages have posts so long they make even my most long-winded posts look like haikus. And of course after all that writing, they said nothing.

I still think that the basic tenets of Jesus’ teachings preach humility rather than strength and place value over death more than life in the sense that our lives are part of a step toward achieving something in the afterlife, namely a place by His side in Heaven. What Nietzsche (sorry, I’ve been rereading a lot of his shit, lately) would call the slave morality. It is my sense that you are essentially calling for more of the master morality in society, in which values include strength, nobility and so forth.

Yet, Christianity values different things. It places emphasis on humility, works of charity and so on. Democracy itself may even be an extension of this with its emphasis on equality and that sort of thing.

So which one do you want? Master morality, in which nobility is emphasized but in which approval from others is unnecessary (since the strong create their own morality thru action rather than react to what others tell them is good and bad), thereby rendering approval from society moot? Or should we embrace what Nietzsche called slave morality, which essentially boils down to Christian values in which we act selflessly for the benefit of others and with humility?

149

Well Raj, since Cortes is winding his participation down, I may as well take the time now to point just how flawed your assumptions have been about the effectiveness of shaming. You challenged me to do some research. Well, aside from the real world research I conduct on a daily basis that places me in a FAR better position to make judgment statements about how and why people end up as such drains on the economy of the country that I live in and you don’t (remind me again, what part of the U.S. is Canada in?), i actually decided a few days ago to do more than some social research.

I decided to conduct an actual experiment in conjunction with this thread over in the Master Troll thread that you started a little while ago. Perhaps you were right when you claimed that my initial posts in there were geared toward getting a reaction out of you.

You see, I have been doing nothing in that thread but outright shaming people of Indian descent for the backward nature of their country and the fact that little seems to be done about it by those in the best position to enact positive change. I’ve been shaming Indians for being guilty of FAR worse action/inaction in terms of the horrific problems that society faces than anything that fat people or single mothers are guilty of in this society here. I’ve also shamed Indians not only for their inaction and the pitiful state of the country, but I’ve also shamed the caste system which, at least in part, is responsible for such gross inequities in that country.

So tell me something, Raj. Do you feel any more motivated to do anything at all about the state of India? Do you think anyone who is from India on this site (BrownDisaster and, I think, optheta, for instance) and who read my comments that shamed people of Indian descent are any more motivated to do something about the plight that India faces?

Of course not. All those comments were complete bullshit on my part. Master trolling in the Master Troll thread. I don’t really feel that way about Indians. Shit, I obtained a job through the State Department where I will be working toward developing better education programs in places like India so that there is an easier path for those children with the intellect to enact change in places like India to obtain the necessary education to place themselves in positions to do so.

But did my shaming do anything to inspire others to enact that sort of change? Of course not, and there ARE Indians on this site who read what I wrote. No, all my shaming did was entertain some people and maybe turn some others against me rather than toward India and her problems.

150

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
My (tentative) final word on the subject: Shame doesn’t have to necessarily be verbal, or vituperative, or even conscious.

But what we have now is a complete reversal of standards that have been considered normal for basically the whole of human history.

We have ever younger girls who are encouraged by social media to indulge in their natural inclination to narcissism, posting photo after photo of themselves in provocative, sometimes downright pornographic photos. They are hooted and go-girled and encouraged by their friends, male and female, and rewarded for degrading themselves. We have sexual predators capitalizing upon this, encouraging these same girls, some of them not yet even teenagers, to strip and dance and pose and expose themselves; and sometimes, to meet up.

We have girls who should not be considered sexually attractive by any rational standard posting pouty mouthed pictures of themselves flaunting their bare, drooping potbellies and exposed ass-cracks, brimming with adipose. They too, cheered and rewarded with comments like, “Sexy mama!” “Lookin hawt!” and “Moar!!1!”

We have a society where people are afraid to criticize ANY act or lifestyle for fear of being branded as “hateful” and “bigoted,” and who are screamed and shamed to Coventry by the current mob, who’s motto is “Anything-goes, so long as we says soes.”

One thing that appears to have been forgotten in this thread is that shame is the necessary counterpart to humility. And now that the former has all but disappeared, so too the latter.

[/quote]

When it comes to narcissism in society and all its inherent ills, you’ll get no argument from me. I wholeheartedly agree that society has become overly-narcissistic. I disagree that society as a whole has actively accepted the sort of behavior you described. Social media has simply given a voice to those who seek to normalize said behavior, but that does not negate the fact that there are still many, many people who are outraged about this behavior, and are vocal about it. There has been quite the uproar over the way certain students behaved on social media regarding the plight of the victim in the Steubenville rape case out in Ohio, for instance. Correct me if I’m wrong, but there has also been legislation introduced at various govt levels to regulate or crack down on a lot of the over-sexualization of prepubescent teens that occurs on social media.

There’s always been exhibitionists who shouldn’t be showing off what they don’t actually have. I grew up near Santa Cruz, CA and a lot of the beaches just north of town have been frequented by nudists who have no business wearing anything but a full-length parka in public long before social media ever existed.

It just seems that this has gained more traction recently because social media and the Internet has simply given them a much larger voice than ever before. Don’t mistake higher visibility for higher acceptance.

It may seem contradictory for me to say that society has become narcissistic but not anymore accepting of such narcissism, but I think the reality is that we have ALL become more narcissistic. Your own avatar suggests as much, as does a lot of what goes on in this website in general, especially back when we still had the T-Vixen thread in SAMA. That was as narcissistic as anything you’ll see from the segments of society you condemn.

Anyways, my point is that while narcissism is definitely rampant in this society, as it has gone up I simply don’t see the level of acceptance of certain forms of narcissism gaining more traction than narcissism as a whole has. Totally unverifiable, I know, but that’s the feeling I get, and since we’re talking about the U.S. here and only one of us lives in the U.S., I think I speak from a position of more authority than you do in this case. Which isn’t a very authoritative position in and of itself, but still…

Regarding shaming, I understand where you are coming from it, but without offering a legitimate solution and actively helping people use that solution to achieve the end goal, shaming is a redundant exercise that only worsens the situation, not betters it.[/quote]

Actual final word, I have family over and I’m being selfish with my time:

There is a difference between pride in achievement and wanton self-aggrandizement. We should encourage the former, and stamp out the latter.

Been fun going back and forth with you again, DB. You make me want to tear my hair out, sometimes, but you certainly do stimulate my brain and challenge me to defend my beliefs. Good exercise for the brain.

[/quote]

Sooooooo…you’re saying that I win?

:slight_smile:

151

Sorry Raj, I just remembered that it wasn’t you who started the Master Troll thread. But that does nothing to distract from the empirical evidence I collected through my little experiment that further decimated your argument about the effectiveness of shaming.

152

[quote]csulli wrote:
I’m not sure if I’d be comfortable with shaming teenage girls who are already pregnant… I’m down with shaming teenage girls who are slutting it up and having unprotected sex all over the goddamn place. If some girl is already pregnant though, I think the time for shaming is probably past and she just needs help for her future child at that point.[/quote]

You could potentially shame her from having another baby.

154

Yeesh. Here I go picking this up again, I just want to make clear that I was not suggesting we should be bullying or otherwise tormenting or harassing people.

My position from the start has been that we, as a society, are lately being pressured into feeling we have to ACCEPT behaviors, lifestyles and people we might otherwise shun.

Certain behaviors should not be encouraged. They should be discouraged. There are ways to do this that allow the receiver to understand his behavior is unacceptable without name calling, cursing, browbeating, or harassment. My mom would NEVER try and do anything like this to me, but when she is disappointed in me she lets me know it. And you had better believe that a single word of disapproval from her is enough to set off a 50 megaton explosion of shame (at my actions) and humiliation, which in turn stimulates me try and avoid repeating that behavior.

The thing is, for this to work, both parties need to respect themselves, first, and the other party in turn. Too much today we have a group that doesn’t have the balls to call bad behavior what it is because they are just as guilty but not interested in doing anything to change that.

155

I notice all the people against shaming are also the ones in favour of promoting a healthy lifestyle.

My question is, where is the evidence that will work?

156

One day Buddha was walking through a village. A very angry and rude
(and sad) young man came up to him and began insulting him.

“You have no right to be teaching others!!!” he shouted.
“You are as stupid as everyone else. You are nothing but a fake!!”

Buddha was not upset by these insults. He just smiled. The man insulted him again and again but the only reaction he could get back from the Buddha was a
smile and silence. Finally he stomped his feet and left cursing.

The disciples were feeling angry and one of the them couldn?t keep quiet and asked the Buddha, ?Why didn?t you reply to the rude man??

The Buddha replied, ?If someone offers you a gift, and you refuse to accept it, to whom does the gift belong??
?Of course to the person who brought the gift,? replied the disciple. ?That is correct,? smiled the Djay Buddha

157

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

I don’t come across people who got sober because someone else shamed them into it.[/quote]

Since I’m still here:

How many more or less people do you think would get sober if it became socially unacceptable to express any negative opinion regarding their behavior?

158

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Those are some very good points DB. In a lot of cases, shame doesn’t work. You can’t make a person feel any worse than they already do, and even if you try your efforts are both futile and sadistic. You might be able to get the person to feel worse, but at that point you might as well throw them off of a bridge.

My wife has had a weight problem, and after having our son it has become worse. What do you guys suppose I do? Come home every night and make her feel like complete garbage? Keep doing that until she no longer feels like breathing?

No Thanks. I already know that she feels very badly about herself. Do you guys suppose I should make that worse? Maybe I can make her feel so badly that she develops a good healthy eating disorder like anorexia or bulimia. Or how about just shaming her into leaving so that I don’t have to look at her any more? Then she can be a single mother with a new baby and I can be a single dad with a nice child support payment and a lifetime of regret!

You guys are fucking genius!

Or maybe I can just be supportive and present some healthy options for diet and exercise that we can both feel good about.
[/quote]

Again, I, for one, am not suggesting that coming home and haranguing your wife would be at ALL effective in motivating her to lose weight.

I still think both sides in this debate are either misinterpreting or misrepresenting each other’s ideas of what “shame” entails.

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[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

I don’t come across people who got sober because someone else shamed them into it.[/quote]

Since I’m still here:

How many more or less people do you think would get sober if it became socially unacceptable to express any negative opinion regarding their behavior?[/quote]

Probably about the same. People get sober for themselves, not for others. The consequences of their actions don’t change just because other people are OK with their actions. They still crash cars, overdose, lose their jobs, have health problems, have their kids taken away, etc. There are people getting sober in every country on this planet, including places like Russia or Ireland.

You’re using logic where it doesn’t belong. If people acted logically, they wouldn’t continually engage in behavior that is clearly not good for them. You can’t expect them to see the logic of the argument you make against their behavior by promoting its social inappropriateness.

Besides, since when has it become socially unacceptable to express any negative opinion about the behavior of people eating themselves to death? The obesity epidemic is something that is being addressed in this country. Poorly, perhaps, but addressed nonetheless. Is the healthy lifestyle that this website promotes socially unacceptable? Of course not. Are the efforts of the First Lady considered socially unacceptable? Of course not. Are the efforts of people who try to prevent teenage pregnancy socially unacceptable? Of course not. You’re working off of a totally false assumption here, Cortes, one that I’m not even sure you’re qualified to make since we’re talking about the U.S. and her social ills and you don’t even live here.

What IS socially unacceptable is to ridicule people by shaming them with verbal abuse and that sort of thing. I know that isn’t specifically what you are getting at, but that IS what Raj is getting at and that IS what the original intent of this thread was getting at. Shaming people in that sense is far different than saying the behavior that is being shamed has now become socially unacceptable. The behavior is not accepted, neither the social ills or the shaming. Shaming in the sense that Raj is getting at offers no solution and serves only to make the target feel worse. THAT is socially unacceptable and against the teachings of Jesus Christ, which is why I got into that whole angle a while back.

160

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
My (tentative) final word on the subject: Shame doesn’t have to necessarily be verbal, or vituperative, or even conscious.

But what we have now is a complete reversal of standards that have been considered normal for basically the whole of human history.

We have ever younger girls who are encouraged by social media to indulge in their natural inclination to narcissism, posting photo after photo of themselves in provocative, sometimes downright pornographic photos. They are hooted and go-girled and encouraged by their friends, male and female, and rewarded for degrading themselves. We have sexual predators capitalizing upon this, encouraging these same girls, some of them not yet even teenagers, to strip and dance and pose and expose themselves; and sometimes, to meet up.

We have girls who should not be considered sexually attractive by any rational standard posting pouty mouthed pictures of themselves flaunting their bare, drooping potbellies and exposed ass-cracks, brimming with adipose. They too, cheered and rewarded with comments like, “Sexy mama!” “Lookin hawt!” and “Moar!!1!”

We have a society where people are afraid to criticize ANY act or lifestyle for fear of being branded as “hateful” and “bigoted,” and who are screamed and shamed to Coventry by the current mob, who’s motto is “Anything-goes, so long as we says soes.”

One thing that appears to have been forgotten in this thread is that shame is the necessary counterpart to humility. And now that the former has all but disappeared, so too the latter.

[/quote]

When it comes to narcissism in society and all its inherent ills, you’ll get no argument from me. I wholeheartedly agree that society has become overly-narcissistic. I disagree that society as a whole has actively accepted the sort of behavior you described. Social media has simply given a voice to those who seek to normalize said behavior, but that does not negate the fact that there are still many, many people who are outraged about this behavior, and are vocal about it. There has been quite the uproar over the way certain students behaved on social media regarding the plight of the victim in the Steubenville rape case out in Ohio, for instance. Correct me if I’m wrong, but there has also been legislation introduced at various govt levels to regulate or crack down on a lot of the over-sexualization of prepubescent teens that occurs on social media.

There’s always been exhibitionists who shouldn’t be showing off what they don’t actually have. I grew up near Santa Cruz, CA and a lot of the beaches just north of town have been frequented by nudists who have no business wearing anything but a full-length parka in public long before social media ever existed.

It just seems that this has gained more traction recently because social media and the Internet has simply given them a much larger voice than ever before. Don’t mistake higher visibility for higher acceptance.

It may seem contradictory for me to say that society has become narcissistic but not anymore accepting of such narcissism, but I think the reality is that we have ALL become more narcissistic. Your own avatar suggests as much, as does a lot of what goes on in this website in general, especially back when we still had the T-Vixen thread in SAMA. That was as narcissistic as anything you’ll see from the segments of society you condemn.

Anyways, my point is that while narcissism is definitely rampant in this society, as it has gone up I simply don’t see the level of acceptance of certain forms of narcissism gaining more traction than narcissism as a whole has. Totally unverifiable, I know, but that’s the feeling I get, and since we’re talking about the U.S. here and only one of us lives in the U.S., I think I speak from a position of more authority than you do in this case. Which isn’t a very authoritative position in and of itself, but still…

Regarding shaming, I understand where you are coming from it, but without offering a legitimate solution and actively helping people use that solution to achieve the end goal, shaming is a redundant exercise that only worsens the situation, not betters it.[/quote]

Actual final word, I have family over and I’m being selfish with my time:

There is a difference between pride in achievement and wanton self-aggrandizement. We should encourage the former, and stamp out the latter.

Been fun going back and forth with you again, DB. You make me want to tear my hair out, sometimes, but you certainly do stimulate my brain and challenge me to defend my beliefs. Good exercise for the brain.

[/quote]

Sooooooo…you’re saying that I win?

:)[/quote]

If “winning” means having the last word, I’m pretty sure I’ll never be able to defeat you, lol.