Shaming People

[Cortes]

This is a huge topic, and I am not sure if I will have the free time necessary to be able to make my point clear, but I’ll be as succinct as I can for now.

Living in Japan has given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic. The culture of shame is alive and well here, and while I must make clear that there are aspects of it that I absolutely despise, and I think that there will never be a way to apply it that does not involve certain instances or degrees of “collateral damage,” a little time spent here will go a long way toward convincing just about anyone that collectively administered shame can be one of the most powerful and stabilizing forces in existence for enforcing mutually agreed upon standards of behavior.

I see the usual suspects are already jumping on me about this, as I suspected would happen. Let me first reiterate: I don’t LIKE the idea of shaming or ostracizing someone. But I’m looking beyond the effect upon the individual. Sometimes certain cultural practices serve a greater purpose, and what looks cruel is actually kind to the whole of society. And when a certain method has been shown to work, and when the removal of that method results in worse aggregate societal consequences on the whole, I’m going with the utilitarian option. “Educating” people, while important, lacks the crucial element of emotion and is unconnected to pride or status. Everyone knows they can get in trouble if they break the speed limit, but some people need to get a ticket before they will finally slow down. For others, nothing short of a car wreck will get the point across. That’s how humans are. For many idiots, no amount of “education” is going to compel them to comply. So, while I despise speed traps, they do probably serve a greater purpose for society as a whole.

Why you guys always insist upon throwing around red herrings like my Christianity I can never figure out.

[Cortes]

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
As a matter of fact, societal shame used to be an extremely effective method to assure adherence to collectively agreed upon rules of morality and propriety. It is only a recent development in the history of most human societies that, finally, and ironically, the act of shaming, itself, is the one shame-able offense we’ve decided to allow.

Maybe we should think about that.

[/quote]

Aren’t you a Christian of some sort? Is “shaming” what Christ would have suggested? Of course not. Treat others as you would have them treat you. I HIGHLY doubt you would want someone shaming you if you were obese. Not when there are plenty other avenues toward solving the obesity epidemic that don’t involve hurtful actions.

A much more positive, productive and longer-lasting impact could be made by simply educating people about obesity more. The First Lady is very active in this regard. I have never heard you voice any sort of support of her efforts. DO you support her efforts? Or would you rather choose the path that allows you to somehow justify openly insulting an admittedly pathetic, disgusting demographic in society?[/quote]

I don’t know, it’s been a while since I read the Bible so I could be wrong, but I seem to remember Christ making some pretty scathing remarks in places. That’s a whole other conversation though and I’m not gonna start it.

I think it would be great if the positive, productive approach based on education would effect change in people’s behaviour. Unfortunately this presumes that people look at the available information and make rational decisions regarding their vices, thus bad decisions are simply the result of bad information. If this were true, you really could “cure” bad decisions through education. However, people make most of their decisions based on emotions and often in flagrant disregard for what the most readily available information would indicate.

Where I live almost nobody smokes cigarettes. This shift really started to gain momentum in the past ten ears. IMO, it had nothing to do with better information or bigger warnings on cigarette packages. It has been common knowledge even among the least educated people cigarettes are bad for you for some time now. However it recently became socially unacceptable to smoke in public. Light up and you are met with almost universal disdain and contempt, if not outright “shaming”. It is socially acceptable to look down on smokers as if they are a lower form of life. As a result, it seems like hardly anybody smokes anymore. I firmly believe that this was almost entirely an emotional/social process and not an academic one at all.

Similarly, with obesity, it is generally recognized that obesity is disadvantageous and that eating smaller portions and less junk food while increasing physical activity helps prevent it. This is not some hidden, esoteric knowledge. Everyone knows this, they just choose to ignore it because overeating feels good, junk food tastes good and being sedentary is easier than being active. I don’t see how education can overcome this.

I’m not personally advocating shaming, but it does seem to me that almost every social shift in history has taken place when the masses emotionally rejected one way of thinking or behaving in favour of another and the old way became shameful and embarrassing to practice. Furthermore speaking for my self seeking to avoid shame (i.e. losing, failure, poor performance etc.) motivates me as strongly as seeking to gain satisfaction. I need the carrot and the stick, but that’s just me.[/quote]

Good post. This had not gone up when I made my reply above.

[DBCooper]

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
As a matter of fact, societal shame used to be an extremely effective method to assure adherence to collectively agreed upon rules of morality and propriety. It is only a recent development in the history of most human societies that, finally, and ironically, the act of shaming, itself, is the one shame-able offense we’ve decided to allow.

Maybe we should think about that.

[/quote]

Aren’t you a Christian of some sort? Is “shaming” what Christ would have suggested? Of course not. Treat others as you would have them treat you. I HIGHLY doubt you would want someone shaming you if you were obese. Not when there are plenty other avenues toward solving the obesity epidemic that don’t involve hurtful actions.

A much more positive, productive and longer-lasting impact could be made by simply educating people about obesity more. The First Lady is very active in this regard. I have never heard you voice any sort of support of her efforts. DO you support her efforts? Or would you rather choose the path that allows you to somehow justify openly insulting an admittedly pathetic, disgusting demographic in society?[/quote]

I don’t know, it’s been a while since I read the Bible so I could be wrong, but I seem to remember Christ making some pretty scathing remarks in places. That’s a whole other conversation though and I’m not gonna start it.

I think it would be great if the positive, productive approach based on education would effect change in people’s behaviour. Unfortunately this presumes that people look at the available information and make rational decisions regarding their vices, thus bad decisions are simply the result of bad information. If this were true, you really could “cure” bad decisions through education. However, people make most of their decisions based on emotions and often in flagrant disregard for what the most readily available information would indicate.

Where I live almost nobody smokes cigarettes. This shift really started to gain momentum in the past ten ears. IMO, it had nothing to do with better information or bigger warnings on cigarette packages. It has been common knowledge even among the least educated people cigarettes are bad for you for some time now. However it recently became socially unacceptable to smoke in public. Light up and you are met with almost universal disdain and contempt, if not outright “shaming”. It is socially acceptable to look down on smokers as if they are a lower form of life. As a result, it seems like hardly anybody smokes anymore. I firmly believe that this was almost entirely an emotional/social process and not an academic one at all.

Similarly, with obesity, it is generally recognized that obesity is disadvantageous and that eating smaller portions and less junk food while increasing physical activity helps prevent it. This is not some hidden, esoteric knowledge. Everyone knows this, they just choose to ignore it because overeating feels good, junk food tastes good and being sedentary is easier than being active. I don’t see how education can overcome this.

I’m not personally advocating shaming, but it does seem to me that almost every social shift in history has taken place when the masses emotionally rejected one way of thinking or behaving in favour of another and the old way became shameful and embarrassing to practice. Furthermore speaking for my self seeking to avoid shame (i.e. losing, failure, poor performance etc.) motivates me as strongly as seeking to gain satisfaction. I need the carrot and the stick, but that’s just me.[/quote]

There’s no fast and easy solution at all. I’m just saying that it’s pointless, hurtful and in many cases, counter-productive to shame fat motherfuckers. Educating them about their unhealthy lifestyle choices won’t do a whole lot, either. But I think it’s a better option than sheer ridicule.

And I completely disagree that “fat acceptance” is gaining traction at all in this country. Are there more fat people than ever before? Sure, I think most studies would indicate as much. But do we “accept” that? I don’t think so. There are all sorts of things in place now to combat obesity than ever before.

Many public schools have healthy lunch options or outright ban certain fattening foods. Certain types of fat aren’t even allowed in our food anymore. Cities have or have tried to ban sodas altogether or larger sizes that allow people to pump themselves full of that shit. These sorts of things simply didn’t happen twenty or thirty years ago.

There is a difference between saying it’s OK to be fat and saying it’s not OK to ostracize people simply for being fat. I think the latter is what we see going on today and people confuse that with “fat acceptance”.

It’s funny, too, because I’m sure a lot of the people on here and in general who think shaming fat people is OK are the same who flip out over governmental restrictions on certain food products like what Bloomberg recently tried in NY. I get the whole personal liberty thing and all that, but as misguided as solutions like that may be, they are at least attempts at finding a solution to a legitimate problem in this country. I simply don’t believe that a better solution is to shame people into losing weight. That might work for a small minority of fat fuckers, but overall I think that only engenders resentment and gives people some warped justification in their mind for continuing their lifestyle.

You know the saying “if you can’t beat 'em, join 'em?” Well, I don’t think many people would want to “join 'em” if it meant joining the people who make them feel like shit.

[roadwarrior83]

[quote]Cortes wrote:
This is a huge topic, and I am not sure if I will have the free time necessary to be able to make my point clear, but I’ll be as succinct as I can for now.

Living in Japan has given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic. The culture of shame is alive and well here, and while I must make clear that there are aspects of it that I absolutely despise, and I think that there will never be a way to apply it that does not involve certain instances or degrees of “collateral damage,” a little time spent here will go a long way toward convincing just about anyone that collectively administered shame can be one of the most powerful and stabilizing forces in existence for enforcing mutually agreed upon standards of behavior.

I see the usual suspects are already jumping on me about this, as I suspected would happen. Let me first reiterate: I don’t LIKE the idea of shaming or ostracizing someone. But I’m looking beyond the effect upon the individual. Sometimes certain cultural practices serve a greater purpose, and what looks cruel is actually kind to the whole of society. And when a certain method has been shown to work, and when the removal of that method results in worse aggregate societal consequences on the whole, I’m going with the utilitarian option. “Educating” people, while important, lacks the crucial element of emotion and is unconnected to pride or status. Everyone knows they can get in trouble if they break the speed limit, but some people need to get a ticket before they will finally slow down. For others, nothing short of a car wreck will get the point across. That’s how humans are. For many idiots, no amount of “education” is going to compel them to comply. So, while I despise speed traps, they do probably serve a greater purpose for society as a whole.

Why you guys always insist upon throwing around red herrings like my Christianity I can never figure out. [/quote]
i hope on day when i decide to grow all the way up i can see things like you, you always have alot of good smart things to say. until then i will remain a joker and degrader with a few good things to say.

[Cortes]

Regarding obesity, and general overweight, for that matter: America is fast approaching a point where it has become taboo to make any sort of negative comment about anyone’s weight. We’re all beautiful. I am completely sick of seeing all the fawning, gag-inducing hagiographies about that store in Switzerland (or where ever it was) that “BRAVELY” used the “NATURAL” (meaning chunky and near fat) mannequins to display their wares.

So what we end up with is a society where “education” is probably not even going to happen in the first place because we’re too busy tiptoeing around any suggestion that it might be a bit more healthy not to carry around an extra thirty pounds of adipose tissue and stay away from fried food, processed carbs and HFCS. Meanwhile, we as a society are slowly growing more and more unhealthy, more cancerous, more chair and bed-ridden, more inclined to diabetes, stroke, and heart disease, along with just experiencing a lower, more uncomfortable and less-satisfying quality of life.

I haven’t even gotten into peripheral health-care costs and other factors that do go beyond the individual and end up affecting healthy folks like you and I.

But God forbid we should ever make anyone feel bad about the stupid, selfish, harmful lifestyle choices they are making. Oh perish the thought.

[therajraj]

Waiting wouldn’t graphic ads on cigarette packets qualify as a form of shaming?

Imagine if every Oreo packet had a picture of an obese guy telling you this is what happens if you consume these products regularly ?

[Cortes]

[quote]roadwarrior83 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
This is a huge topic, and I am not sure if I will have the free time necessary to be able to make my point clear, but I’ll be as succinct as I can for now.

Living in Japan has given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic. The culture of shame is alive and well here, and while I must make clear that there are aspects of it that I absolutely despise, and I think that there will never be a way to apply it that does not involve certain instances or degrees of “collateral damage,” a little time spent here will go a long way toward convincing just about anyone that collectively administered shame can be one of the most powerful and stabilizing forces in existence for enforcing mutually agreed upon standards of behavior.

I see the usual suspects are already jumping on me about this, as I suspected would happen. Let me first reiterate: I don’t LIKE the idea of shaming or ostracizing someone. But I’m looking beyond the effect upon the individual. Sometimes certain cultural practices serve a greater purpose, and what looks cruel is actually kind to the whole of society. And when a certain method has been shown to work, and when the removal of that method results in worse aggregate societal consequences on the whole, I’m going with the utilitarian option. “Educating” people, while important, lacks the crucial element of emotion and is unconnected to pride or status. Everyone knows they can get in trouble if they break the speed limit, but some people need to get a ticket before they will finally slow down. For others, nothing short of a car wreck will get the point across. That’s how humans are. For many idiots, no amount of “education” is going to compel them to comply. So, while I despise speed traps, they do probably serve a greater purpose for society as a whole.

Why you guys always insist upon throwing around red herrings like my Christianity I can never figure out. [/quote]
i hope on day when i decide to grow all the way up i can see things like you, you always have alot of good smart things to say. until then i will remain a joker and degrader with a few good things to say. [/quote]

Haha, thanks roadwarrior. Stick around, I’ve got my share of dumb jokes and cheap shots. Let DB needle me a bit more and maybe you’ll even get to see a few in this very thread. (^_~)

[DBCooper]

[quote]Cortes wrote:
This is a huge topic, and I am not sure if I will have the free time necessary to be able to make my point clear, but I’ll be as succinct as I can for now.

Living in Japan has given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic. The culture of shame is alive and well here, and while I must make clear that there are aspects of it that I absolutely despise, and I think that there will never be a way to apply it that does not involve certain instances or degrees of “collateral damage,” a little time spent here will go a long way toward convincing just about anyone that collectively administered shame can be one of the most powerful and stabilizing forces in existence for enforcing mutually agreed upon standards of behavior.

I see the usual suspects are already jumping on me about this, as I suspected would happen. Let me first reiterate: I don’t LIKE the idea of shaming or ostracizing someone. But I’m looking beyond the effect upon the individual. Sometimes certain cultural practices serve a greater purpose, and what looks cruel is actually kind to the whole of society. And when a certain method has been shown to work, and when the removal of that method results in worse aggregate societal consequences on the whole, I’m going with the utilitarian option. “Educating” people, while important, lacks the crucial element of emotion and is unconnected to pride or status. Everyone knows they can get in trouble if they break the speed limit, but some people need to get a ticket before they will finally slow down. For others, nothing short of a car wreck will get the point across. That’s how humans are. For many idiots, no amount of “education” is going to compel them to comply. So, while I despise speed traps, they do probably serve a greater purpose for society as a whole.

Why you guys always insist upon throwing around red herrings like my Christianity I can never figure out. [/quote]

Japanese culture is WAY different than American culture. The application of shame simply won’t work the same here. And I don’t think we should necessarily be striving to be like a country with as high a suicide rate as Japan’s. I know the two aren’t directly related, but I can’t help but think that the higher suicide rates are at least in some small, indirect way related to the culture of shame that exists in Japan that does not exist here. Obviously there is much more to it than that, but it makes me a little suspicious, nonetheless.

As far as the speeding analogy, it’s a poor one. Speeding presents an inherent life-safety risk to those around the speeder. Fat people do not, unless they pass out after walking up a flight of stairs and pass out on top of some small child.

And while I certainly don’t like fat people all that much, I don’t think we should be compelling them to do anything that doesn’t violate the rights of others. Nothing they do violates my rights as a human being. I really don’t care if some fat fuck wants to eat all the food they can cram down their throats. It has no discernible negative impact on my life.

I take that back. Fat people are clearly a significant drain on the healthcare system in this country. But you know what is MUCH, MUCH more draining on the healthcare system in this country and DOES directly harm me? Smoking. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people in the U.S. alone who die from smoking-related illnesses, much more than fat people. And second-hand smoke is harmful to one’s health as well.

So if we ARE going to start shaming people for making poor lifestyle/health choices, we should start with smokers, not fat people. Going after fat people makes us feel good because we’re all on a website dedicated to healthy living and positive body images and that sort of thing. We aren’t guilty of being obese and those of us who are fat are actually doing something about it.

[DBCooper]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]roadwarrior83 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
This is a huge topic, and I am not sure if I will have the free time necessary to be able to make my point clear, but I’ll be as succinct as I can for now.

Living in Japan has given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic. The culture of shame is alive and well here, and while I must make clear that there are aspects of it that I absolutely despise, and I think that there will never be a way to apply it that does not involve certain instances or degrees of “collateral damage,” a little time spent here will go a long way toward convincing just about anyone that collectively administered shame can be one of the most powerful and stabilizing forces in existence for enforcing mutually agreed upon standards of behavior.

I see the usual suspects are already jumping on me about this, as I suspected would happen. Let me first reiterate: I don’t LIKE the idea of shaming or ostracizing someone. But I’m looking beyond the effect upon the individual. Sometimes certain cultural practices serve a greater purpose, and what looks cruel is actually kind to the whole of society. And when a certain method has been shown to work, and when the removal of that method results in worse aggregate societal consequences on the whole, I’m going with the utilitarian option. “Educating” people, while important, lacks the crucial element of emotion and is unconnected to pride or status. Everyone knows they can get in trouble if they break the speed limit, but some people need to get a ticket before they will finally slow down. For others, nothing short of a car wreck will get the point across. That’s how humans are. For many idiots, no amount of “education” is going to compel them to comply. So, while I despise speed traps, they do probably serve a greater purpose for society as a whole.

Why you guys always insist upon throwing around red herrings like my Christianity I can never figure out. [/quote]
i hope on day when i decide to grow all the way up i can see things like you, you always have alot of good smart things to say. until then i will remain a joker and degrader with a few good things to say. [/quote]

Haha, thanks roadwarrior. Stick around, I’ve got my share of dumb jokes and cheap shots. Let DB needle me a bit more and maybe you’ll even get to see a few in this very thread. (^_~)[/quote]

Needling you? We’re T-Nation friends now! I wouldn’t needle you!

In all seriousness though, why do you think I’m needling you? You purport to be a believer in the Christian faith, correct? Is it not appropriate to point out that on the one hand, you are believer in the teachings of Jesus Christ and on the other you advocate for behavior that directly flies in the face of His teachings? Do you get to pick and choose when those teachings are applied? Isn’t that simply moral relativism, by choosing to apply His teachings when they work for you and looking for a reason to pass them up when they don’t?

I’m not trying to needle you. I’m simply trying to point out that if you adhere to the teachings that you believe in for all areas of your life, you might find that there is a better, more compassionate way to solve the problem of obesity in America.

I wholeheartedly agree that education isn’t the be-all, end-all solution. The fact is that there is more information now than ever before about the ill effects of eating yourself into a coma everyday. Yet, people continue to do so. So clearly fat people in general aren’t all that intelligent to begin with. Education doesn’t look like it’s had all that great of an effect so far. But at the same time, people have tried taking even more drastic measures and as misguided as they have been (Bloomberg in NY, for instance), those measures have been wholly ridiculed rather than looked at for what they really are: potential solutions to a growing problem.

[DBCooper]

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Waiting wouldn’t graphic ads on cigarette packets qualify as a form of shaming?

Imagine if every Oreo packet had a picture of an obese guy telling you this is what happens if you consume these products regularly ?

[/quote]

I don’t consider those cigarette ads “shaming”. They’re what I like to call “the reality of the situation.” When I think of shaming, I think of people openly ridiculing people for being fat without offering any sort of tangible solution. I’m into solution-based approaches to problems in life, not pointing and laughing at them when they manifest themselves in others or running and hiding from my own.

What sort of solution is being offered by simply ridiculing fat-asses? Nothing. I don’t know if simply showing a fat fuck on a TV ad will work. It isn’t about what you look like when you’re obese; it’s about what’s going on inside of you. There’s a bit more that is implied in that respect when you show a guy talking out of a hole in his fucking trachea. I think ads that highlight the negative impacts on the human body that are tied to obesity, or even tied to being just short of obesity, can be effective.

[Nards]

First they shamed the fat people, and I wasn’t fat so I said nothing…

[kamui]

Shaming may work pretty well in traditionnal societies that are based on shame and honor

But we don’t live in traditionnal societies anymore.

We wanted and we get something else : a loose collective of so-called free individuals.
Now we have to pay for it, quite literally.

We can’t have it both ways :

if you want to shame some people, you should first accept them as member of your society, completely, in the strongest meaning of this word.
And you should be prepared to accept for yourself all the duties and constraints that comes with being a member of a society.

And, since shame and honor work together (or don’t work at all) you should be prepared to honor some people too.
Again, in the strongest meaning of these words.

[Uncle_Gabby]

[quote]Chushin wrote:

• Allowing for “natural” conseguences (like, say, higher insurance rates for smokers and obese people)that make clear the consequences of unhealthy life choices should be used as much as possible.[/quote]

The problem I have with this is, when they set the line for who gets the higher insurance rates they will probably use the standard body mass index. Everyone on this site who has lifted a barbell and eaten a steak will be considered overweight and will have to pay.

Also, a “large” percentage of the obese folks in this country are already on medicaid and “disability” anyway, so you and me will still be paying for their irresponsibility.

[csulli]

[quote]Nards wrote:
First they shamed the fat people, and I wasn’t fat so I said nothing…[/quote]
And when they started shaming people whose heads were of above average size, there was no one left to speak for me…

[challer1]

Shame fat people? For what? It’s none of your damn business how someone else chooses to live their life.

And how many times does it need to be said - as a group the obese cost the system LESS MONEY than those that are fit.

[DBCooper]

[quote]challer1 wrote:
Shame fat people? For what? It’s none of your damn business how someone else chooses to live their life.

And how many times does it need to be said - as a group the obese cost the system LESS MONEY than those that are fit. [/quote]

I get what you’re trying to say here (lifting-related injuries, longer life spans, fire department expenditures after people set Planet Fitness on fire, etc, etc) but could you provide some sort of link that illustrates your point? I’m curious to know just how much more money fit people are costing the system than fat people.

[Cortes]

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
This is a huge topic, and I am not sure if I will have the free time necessary to be able to make my point clear, but I’ll be as succinct as I can for now.

Living in Japan has given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic. The culture of shame is alive and well here, and while I must make clear that there are aspects of it that I absolutely despise, and I think that there will never be a way to apply it that does not involve certain instances or degrees of “collateral damage,” a little time spent here will go a long way toward convincing just about anyone that collectively administered shame can be one of the most powerful and stabilizing forces in existence for enforcing mutually agreed upon standards of behavior.

I see the usual suspects are already jumping on me about this, as I suspected would happen. Let me first reiterate: I don’t LIKE the idea of shaming or ostracizing someone. But I’m looking beyond the effect upon the individual. Sometimes certain cultural practices serve a greater purpose, and what looks cruel is actually kind to the whole of society. And when a certain method has been shown to work, and when the removal of that method results in worse aggregate societal consequences on the whole, I’m going with the utilitarian option. “Educating” people, while important, lacks the crucial element of emotion and is unconnected to pride or status. Everyone knows they can get in trouble if they break the speed limit, but some people need to get a ticket before they will finally slow down. For others, nothing short of a car wreck will get the point across. That’s how humans are. For many idiots, no amount of “education” is going to compel them to comply. So, while I despise speed traps, they do probably serve a greater purpose for society as a whole.

Why you guys always insist upon throwing around red herrings like my Christianity I can never figure out. [/quote]

Japanese culture is WAY different than American culture. The application of shame simply won’t work the same here. And I don’t think we should necessarily be striving to be like a country with as high a suicide rate as Japan’s. I know the two aren’t directly related, but I can’t help but think that the higher suicide rates are at least in some small, indirect way related to the culture of shame that exists in Japan that does not exist here. Obviously there is much more to it than that, but it makes me a little suspicious, nonetheless.

As far as the speeding analogy, it’s a poor one. Speeding presents an inherent life-safety risk to those around the speeder. Fat people do not, unless they pass out after walking up a flight of stairs and pass out on top of some small child.

And while I certainly don’t like fat people all that much, I don’t think we should be compelling them to do anything that doesn’t violate the rights of others. Nothing they do violates my rights as a human being. I really don’t care if some fat fuck wants to eat all the food they can cram down their throats. It has no discernible negative impact on my life.

I take that back. Fat people are clearly a significant drain on the healthcare system in this country. But you know what is MUCH, MUCH more draining on the healthcare system in this country and DOES directly harm me? Smoking. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people in the U.S. alone who die from smoking-related illnesses, much more than fat people. And second-hand smoke is harmful to one’s health as well.

So if we ARE going to start shaming people for making poor lifestyle/health choices, we should start with smokers, not fat people. Going after fat people makes us feel good because we’re all on a website dedicated to healthy living and positive body images and that sort of thing. We aren’t guilty of being obese and those of us who are fat are actually doing something about it. [/quote]

DB, I’m just messing with you man. See the little winky dude at the end of my post there, above? I certainly don’t expect to agree with you on matters such as these, but I hold no animosity toward you.

Now, first, I think before we go any further, we need to define our terms and come to an agreement as to exactly what the concept of “shame” actually entails.

As I understand it, “shame” in the sense we are discussing it here is the act of punishment against an individual who violates one or more of a set of collectively agreed upon rules of social propriety, ethics, morals, or laws; which will take the form of shunning, verbal disapproval, scolding or berating, and the withholding of certain emotional capital such as affection, love or demonstrations of love, conversation, or access to certain in-group activities. In short, making someone feel like a piece of shit as punishment for screwing up.

That’s my definition. Dictionary.com’s definitions are more vague, but still basically the same thing:

shame [sheym] Show IPA noun, verb, shamed, sham·ing.
verb (used with object)
5.to cause to feel shame; make ashamed: His cowardice shamed him.
6.to drive, force, etc., through shame: He shamed her into going.
7.to cover with ignominy or reproach; disgrace.

So, before we get too much further into this. Is this what we are talking about here?

[DBCooper]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
This is a huge topic, and I am not sure if I will have the free time necessary to be able to make my point clear, but I’ll be as succinct as I can for now.

Living in Japan has given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic. The culture of shame is alive and well here, and while I must make clear that there are aspects of it that I absolutely despise, and I think that there will never be a way to apply it that does not involve certain instances or degrees of “collateral damage,” a little time spent here will go a long way toward convincing just about anyone that collectively administered shame can be one of the most powerful and stabilizing forces in existence for enforcing mutually agreed upon standards of behavior.

I see the usual suspects are already jumping on me about this, as I suspected would happen. Let me first reiterate: I don’t LIKE the idea of shaming or ostracizing someone. But I’m looking beyond the effect upon the individual. Sometimes certain cultural practices serve a greater purpose, and what looks cruel is actually kind to the whole of society. And when a certain method has been shown to work, and when the removal of that method results in worse aggregate societal consequences on the whole, I’m going with the utilitarian option. “Educating” people, while important, lacks the crucial element of emotion and is unconnected to pride or status. Everyone knows they can get in trouble if they break the speed limit, but some people need to get a ticket before they will finally slow down. For others, nothing short of a car wreck will get the point across. That’s how humans are. For many idiots, no amount of “education” is going to compel them to comply. So, while I despise speed traps, they do probably serve a greater purpose for society as a whole.

Why you guys always insist upon throwing around red herrings like my Christianity I can never figure out. [/quote]

Japanese culture is WAY different than American culture. The application of shame simply won’t work the same here. And I don’t think we should necessarily be striving to be like a country with as high a suicide rate as Japan’s. I know the two aren’t directly related, but I can’t help but think that the higher suicide rates are at least in some small, indirect way related to the culture of shame that exists in Japan that does not exist here. Obviously there is much more to it than that, but it makes me a little suspicious, nonetheless.

As far as the speeding analogy, it’s a poor one. Speeding presents an inherent life-safety risk to those around the speeder. Fat people do not, unless they pass out after walking up a flight of stairs and pass out on top of some small child.

And while I certainly don’t like fat people all that much, I don’t think we should be compelling them to do anything that doesn’t violate the rights of others. Nothing they do violates my rights as a human being. I really don’t care if some fat fuck wants to eat all the food they can cram down their throats. It has no discernible negative impact on my life.

I take that back. Fat people are clearly a significant drain on the healthcare system in this country. But you know what is MUCH, MUCH more draining on the healthcare system in this country and DOES directly harm me? Smoking. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people in the U.S. alone who die from smoking-related illnesses, much more than fat people. And second-hand smoke is harmful to one’s health as well.

So if we ARE going to start shaming people for making poor lifestyle/health choices, we should start with smokers, not fat people. Going after fat people makes us feel good because we’re all on a website dedicated to healthy living and positive body images and that sort of thing. We aren’t guilty of being obese and those of us who are fat are actually doing something about it. [/quote]

DB, I’m just messing with you man. See the little winky dude at the end of my post there, above? I certainly don’t expect to agree with you on matters such as these, but I hold no animosity toward you.

Now, first, I think before we go any further, we need to define our terms and come to an agreement as to exactly what the concept of “shame” actually entails.

As I understand it, “shame” in the sense we are discussing it here is the act of punishment against an individual who violates one or more of a set of collectively agreed upon rules of social propriety, ethics, morals, or laws; which will take the form of shunning, verbal disapproval, scolding or berating, and the withholding of certain emotional capital such as affection, love or demonstrations of love, conversation, or access to certain in-group activities. In short, making someone feel like a piece of shit as punishment for screwing up.

That’s my definition. Dictionary.com’s definitions are more vague, but still basically the same thing:

shame [sheym] Show IPA noun, verb, shamed, sham�·ing.
verb (used with object)
5.to cause to feel shame; make ashamed: His cowardice shamed him.
6.to drive, force, etc., through shame: He shamed her into going.
7.to cover with ignominy or reproach; disgrace.

So, before we get too much further into this. Is this what we are talking about here?

[/quote]

Sure, sounds about right. I don’t care about the dictionary definition. What the fuck do those things know?

I’ve always thought of shaming as making someone feel shameful. That can be accomplished through many avenues. My point is that I don’t think it’s right to make someone feel ashamed for being fat. It is not OK to be fat, but someone who is fat doesn’t have any discernible negative impact on me or my life that isn’t also true for many, many other demographics in society.

For consistency’s sake, both religiously and in terms of shaming those who are “bad” for society, if we’re going to get heavily into shaming, fat people are pretty far down the list. We could start with smokers and then move along to drug dealers and drug users.

As far as what fat people are to society, what are they really? Horrific to look at? Sure, but I like the existence of fat people. It makes someone in shape like myself an ever more rare commodity these days. Supply and demand is in my favor in that respect.

Are they a drain on the healthcare system? Sure, but so are people who insist on fighting cancer even when death is near and inevitable. Do you know how many billions of dollars are spent by people trying to prolong their lives in this manner? How much money is spent keeping fucking vegetables alive on life support? Terry Schiavo alone probably cost the system more than a million dollars.

So what is it about fat people that deserves special attention?

[challer1]

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:
Shame fat people? For what? It’s none of your damn business how someone else chooses to live their life.

And how many times does it need to be said - as a group the obese cost the system LESS MONEY than those that are fit. [/quote]

I get what you’re trying to say here (lifting-related injuries, longer life spans, fire department expenditures after people set Planet Fitness on fire, etc, etc) but could you provide some sort of link that illustrates your point? I’m curious to know just how much more money fit people are costing the system than fat people.[/quote]

There’s a famous swiss study that suggests the lifetime costs of an obese person are about half that of the average fit person. I don’t have time to find it but I’m sure it shouldn’t be hard with some googling.

I know your comment is sort of tongue-in-cheek but it’s got nothing to do with lifted-related injuries and is all about lifespan. A man who has been obese since his 20s dies 13 years earlier on average than a non-obese man… at age 62 versus age 75.

That person who dies at 62 never lives long enough to retire, to collect social security, medicare, develop alzheimers, dementia, “old age” cancers like prostate cancer, etc. A quadruple bypass costs about $50,000. Alzheimer’s care for a year is $100,000.