I’m not sure if I’d be comfortable with shaming teenage girls who are already pregnant… I’m down with shaming teenage girls who are slutting it up and having unprotected sex all over the goddamn place. If some girl is already pregnant though, I think the time for shaming is probably past and she just needs help for her future child at that point.
For shaming to work, the action/state that is being shamed must be relatively rare – it must be something that stands out.
Pregnant teenagers are still basically rare enough in most parts of the USA that it can still be pointed out as the subject of shame.
In America (and I say this as an American), it’s gotten to the point where some degree of obesity…at least a little blubber around the middle… basically the average.
It’s kind of hard to shame out of shape people when the fit person is actually the minority.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
As a matter of fact, societal shame used to be an extremely effective method to assure adherence to collectively agreed upon rules of morality and propriety. It is only a recent development in the history of most human societies that, finally, and ironically, the act of shaming, itself, is the one shame-able offense we’ve decided to allow.
Maybe we should think about that.
[/quote]
Aren’t you a Christian of some sort? Is “shaming” what Christ would have suggested? Of course not. Treat others as you would have them treat you. I HIGHLY doubt you would want someone shaming you if you were obese. Not when there are plenty other avenues toward solving the obesity epidemic that don’t involve hurtful actions.
A much more positive, productive and longer-lasting impact could be made by simply educating people about obesity more. The First Lady is very active in this regard. I have never heard you voice any sort of support of her efforts. DO you support her efforts? Or would you rather choose the path that allows you to somehow justify openly insulting an admittedly pathetic, disgusting demographic in society?
Shaming is ok and natural. Once being fat became the standard, shit went straight down. Obesity rates here in Greece in teenagers is abou 65%. Fuck that shit. Put them of treadmill without handles until they get in somewhat of a shape.
[quote]JLone wrote:
Social interactions have gone to the internet while metropolitan areas grow and people don’t even know their neighbors. [/quote]
This is pretty much it. Ones social circle was once confined to family and the small number of people in the town or village you were born in and most likely died in. Now that the vast majority of the population lives in urban areas, one’s social circle is constantly in flux. If you get a bad reputation you can always ditch the old circle and find a new one.
Churches used to be the greatest dealers in shame, thereby actually serving a useful purpose, but these days if one is unhappy with their church they just find a new one, and take the money they would have dropped in the collection plate with them. As a result, churches are more interested in getting the dollars and rarely say anything that might offend anyone in their own flock.
Here’s the other thing about shaming. Obviously, it doesn’t work for fat people to shame those who are even more bloated than themselves. It would ostensibly only work if those doing the shaming had a solid leg to stand on and were in pretty good shape.
Well, when you get right down to it, the whole shaming thing is basically one person saying to a fatty “you’re fucking disgusting because you aren’t like me, and you SHOULD strive to be more like me.” Well, I’ve got news for you guys. People who are fat, no matter how sincere their desire to be at a healthy weight is, do NOT want to strive to be like the sort of people who make them feel worthless and ridicule them.
They simply aren’t going to say to themselves in large numbers “Gee, I want to be more like the guy who just made me feel like shit.” Instead, they crawl further into their shell and have some sort of conscious or subconscious justification now for their obesity. They think, wittingly or unwittingly, that they don’t want to be like their tormenters at all. And if that means being overweight, they may be less willing to lose weight as a result. It’s part of the whole fat acceptance thing. In many ways, fat acceptance can simply be the byproduct of rejecting the dickhead mentality that justifies outright ridicule of others, which is a mentality that SHOULD be rejected.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
One of the many problems with shaming is that it depends upon the one being shamed to have a weakened sense of self-worth. It also needs the person being shamed to substitute the judgement of the group for their own.
If I am confident in my worth as a human, your judgement means nothing to me. Which is frankly why shaming seems to work on those who are at a particularly vulnerable point in their lives eg: pregnant teens. Why aren’t people trying to shame Sandra Bullock or Charlize Theron, both of whom are now single parents (albeit through adoption)? Or more accurately, why does shame not seem to work?
I’ll go out on a limb and say that the main purpose of shame is to allow the shamer to feel morally superior. The psychic punishment inflicted upon the object of that shame is almost secondary.[/quote]
Really? I’m not sure if you were putting that forth as some form of argument, but if you were, you didn’t seem to put much thought into it.
People don’t shame Sandra Bullock or Charlize Theron for adopting kids because they’re in a position where doing so doesn’t negatively affect them or the child.[/quote]
lol, I actually added that as an edit but it did nothing for my argument, which boils down to: those with a solid sense of their worth as a human being can not be socially shamed. That doesn’t mean that they don’t feel regret, they’re not sociopaths. But they have no use for the feeling of shame.
^^^ On the above sub-thread regarding internet interactions, that’s also created another problem.
Basically, in no small part because of the fashionable rudeness of the past few years (or decades), it’s come to the point where acting like an ass is standard. So, the same sort of intonation & word choice that might normally shame someone does not have as much social impact.
What I mean is, if someone says something nasty/sardonic, I really wouldn’t know if they actually had a point, or if they were just being jackasses.
Plus, because the world is getting so crowded, it’s pretty hard to tell who might actually be a person worthy of respect (as it’s hard to feel shame if you don’t respect someone’s judgment of you), and who is just being a jerk out of self-aggrandizement.
Because so many people are nasty/sardonic, and because they go right for a put-down as a form of communication, there’s not much point in doing anything other than desensitizing yourself to that sort of attitude from people.
All the social/verbal cues of shaming are getting close to meaningless.
shaming will never work, it will be considered bullying. just let them eat and die. Its like shaming a drug addict it wont work, food is their drug it triggers a release of all that fun shit in our brains that we get when we work out. If shaming was such a great practice id say lets apply it to welfare recipients with iphones and escalades who have never worked a day in their life. All it will do is cause resentment. Part of the beauty of The USA is the choice to be a fat ass or the choice not to be however every system has its flaws, and when it comes to the weak and the strong im more primitive in my beliefs and i say cut the cord and let them die.
[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
[quote]JLone wrote:
Social interactions have gone to the internet while metropolitan areas grow and people don’t even know their neighbors. [/quote]
This is pretty much it. Ones social circle was once confined to family and the small number of people in the town or village you were born in and most likely died in. Now that the vast majority of the population lives in urban areas, one’s social circle is constantly in flux. If you get a bad reputation you can always ditch the old circle and find a new one.
Churches used to be the greatest dealers in shame, thereby actually serving a useful purpose, but these days if one is unhappy with their church they just find a new one, and take the money they would have dropped in the collection plate with them. As a result, churches are more interested in getting the dollars and rarely say anything that might offend anyone in their own flock.[/quote]
Thank you for putting that more eloquently than I…
I also think the ability to find like minded people is an important point. When I see a group of people doing something absolutely stupid I always think of the old saying, “The problem is that you know too many people like you.”
You could have the most disgusting fetish (http://www.curiousread.com/2010/03/20-most-odd-and-disgusting-fetishes.html) and because of the internet you can meet like minded people who enjoy the same thing. If the metropolitan area you live in is big enough you can probably have monthly meetings. AND, if it really becomes main stream you can go to expos.
[quote]eremesu wrote:
if you shame teens who become pregnant then why not shame poor women who become pregnant?[/quote]
Married?
being a disgusting fat body has become way to culturally acceptable for shaming to work
LOL
Great idea. How about you start with picketing funerals of fatties. Worked well to stop the homosexuals!
Seriously though, some of you need to have your heads examined.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
As a matter of fact, societal shame used to be an extremely effective method to assure adherence to collectively agreed upon rules of morality and propriety. It is only a recent development in the history of most human societies that, finally, and ironically, the act of shaming, itself, is the one shame-able offense we’ve decided to allow.
Maybe we should think about that.
[/quote]
Aren’t you a Christian of some sort? Is “shaming” what Christ would have suggested? Of course not. Treat others as you would have them treat you. I HIGHLY doubt you would want someone shaming you if you were obese. Not when there are plenty other avenues toward solving the obesity epidemic that don’t involve hurtful actions.
A much more positive, productive and longer-lasting impact could be made by simply educating people about obesity more. The First Lady is very active in this regard. I have never heard you voice any sort of support of her efforts. DO you support her efforts? Or would you rather choose the path that allows you to somehow justify openly insulting an admittedly pathetic, disgusting demographic in society?[/quote]
Good times!
what exactly do we mean by shaming? acting like kids and calling people fattie fattie boom booms (which I may have done on this site)? clearly that just makes them try and justify it more
As much as I love Obama, under obamacare, insurance companies pretty much won’t be able to give customers “optimum” rates for being in shape, and normal rates for being fat.
[quote]debraD wrote:
LOL
Great idea. How about you start with picketing funerals of fatties. Worked well to stop the homosexuals!
Seriously though, some of you need to have your heads examined.
[/quote]
the homosexuals are fine by me because you dont ever see them ass slammin it in public and most of them are average size people. The fattys on the otherhand can gross you out in public with spandex and jelly rolls with there booty all hanging out at walmart. As a matter of fact i was at walmart behind a fat family it was hot as hell in humid ass south texas and sweat was pouring down their clothes, i could literally see the smell but it was the only express lane open and the 4’5" 250lb girl busted ass that would shame most bb’s, i still think she shit, and i lost it all over the floor. they gross me out and i will do what it takes to never be like that. now if they’re fat and at the gym im happy for them or if they have a thyroid dissorder or something thats another story.
this is really me my avatar is fake
[quote]roadwarrior83 wrote:
this is really me my avatar is fake[/quote]
All of your problems are of your own making.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
As a matter of fact, societal shame used to be an extremely effective method to assure adherence to collectively agreed upon rules of morality and propriety. It is only a recent development in the history of most human societies that, finally, and ironically, the act of shaming, itself, is the one shame-able offense we’ve decided to allow.
Maybe we should think about that.
[/quote]
Aren’t you a Christian of some sort? Is “shaming” what Christ would have suggested? Of course not. Treat others as you would have them treat you. I HIGHLY doubt you would want someone shaming you if you were obese. Not when there are plenty other avenues toward solving the obesity epidemic that don’t involve hurtful actions.
A much more positive, productive and longer-lasting impact could be made by simply educating people about obesity more. The First Lady is very active in this regard. I have never heard you voice any sort of support of her efforts. DO you support her efforts? Or would you rather choose the path that allows you to somehow justify openly insulting an admittedly pathetic, disgusting demographic in society?[/quote]
I don’t know, it’s been a while since I read the Bible so I could be wrong, but I seem to remember Christ making some pretty scathing remarks in places. That’s a whole other conversation though and I’m not gonna start it.
I think it would be great if the positive, productive approach based on education would effect change in people’s behaviour. Unfortunately this presumes that people look at the available information and make rational decisions regarding their vices, thus bad decisions are simply the result of bad information. If this were true, you really could “cure” bad decisions through education. However, people make most of their decisions based on emotions and often in flagrant disregard for what the most readily available information would indicate.
Where I live almost nobody smokes cigarettes. This shift really started to gain momentum in the past ten ears. IMO, it had nothing to do with better information or bigger warnings on cigarette packages. It has been common knowledge even among the least educated people cigarettes are bad for you for some time now. However it recently became socially unacceptable to smoke in public. Light up and you are met with almost universal disdain and contempt, if not outright “shaming”. It is socially acceptable to look down on smokers as if they are a lower form of life. As a result, it seems like hardly anybody smokes anymore. I firmly believe that this was almost entirely an emotional/social process and not an academic one at all.
Similarly, with obesity, it is generally recognized that obesity is disadvantageous and that eating smaller portions and less junk food while increasing physical activity helps prevent it. This is not some hidden, esoteric knowledge. Everyone knows this, they just choose to ignore it because overeating feels good, junk food tastes good and being sedentary is easier than being active. I don’t see how education can overcome this.
I’m not personally advocating shaming, but it does seem to me that almost every social shift in history has taken place when the masses emotionally rejected one way of thinking or behaving in favour of another and the old way became shameful and embarrassing to practice. Furthermore speaking for my self seeking to avoid shame (i.e. losing, failure, poor performance etc.) motivates me as strongly as seeking to gain satisfaction. I need the carrot and the stick, but that’s just me.