Separation of Church and State

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
241

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
riddled with errors and inconsistencies[/quote]

Proof[/quote]

He’s not the one making outrageous claims of infallibility. Burden of proof has always and will always lie with you.[/quote]

I can’t prove a there is not a mistake, because that would require me of proving every letter of the Bible. Please learn how burden of proof works.[/quote]

If you want to claim the Bible is infallible, you had better be able to prove it. Your claim, your proof.[/quote]

Except I didn’t make that claim, he made the claim that it is riddled with errors and inconsistencies. The burden of proof is on him since he is the only one that made a claim.[/quote]

If I make a claim and someone calls bullshit on that claim, burden of proof lies with me. The original underlying claim here is Biblical accuracy, and if you make this claim and someone calls bullshit, you are saddled with the burden of proof.

Although it’s cute that you’re trying to dodge responsibility.[/quote]

So, what you’re saying is because he said the Bible is riddled with errors and contradictions and I asked for proof of those errors and contradictions that the burden of proof is on him. Okay.[/quote]

The underlying claim is that the Bible is inerrant (your claim), therefore you must back it up. You make countless decisions that affect people other than yourself using the Bible as a guide.

Burden of proof is still in your court.

Stop dodging.

242

For fuck sake, Chris, Golden Glove, Makavali…

Lay off the fucking walls of text

243

[quote]goldengloves wrote:
“and if he is telling the truth.” That’s the real question.[/quote]

Correct.

244

[quote]Makavali wrote:
The underlying claim is that the Bible is inerrant (your claim), therefore you must back it up. You make countless decisions that affect people other than yourself using the Bible as a guide.

Burden of proof is still in your court.

Stop dodging.[/quote]

No. I have not made a claim in regard to the conversation between Rational Gaze and me. Nope, I have yet to make the claim that the Bible is inerrant. You assumed because I challenged Rational Gaze’s statement that I make that claim, but I have not. So, since I haven’t made a claim, then there is nothing to back up. Except I asked for his proof of his statement. Sorry. And, go head find the quote before Rational Gaze’s where I said the Bible is inerrant. I’ll wait.

245

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Of course water won’t defy physics because a man raised a staff in front of it. God made the water defy physics.[/quote]

rolls eyes Of course! God did it! Thats all the answer we ever need to anything. Oh my, I have an idea, how about I tell a lie and when someone points out an impossibility in my story… I’ll just say God did it! or if I want to make shit up just for the sake of it… god did it!

Did I ever tell you about my friend carl who has a magic wand? It can make anything he wants levitate and do a bunch of other cool stuff like that. …wait, you say thats impossible?

Thats what makes it magic, silly!

246

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Oh my, I have an idea, how about I tell a lie and when someone points out an impossibility in my story… I’ll just say God did it! or if I want to make shit up just for the sake of it… god did it! >>>[/quote]You’d be lying. God can’t.

247

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Of course water won’t defy physics because a man raised a staff in front of it. God made the water defy physics.[/quote]

gee… that makes perfect sense[/quote]

Does to me. If God is omnipotent, he can separate waters infinitely easy.[/quote]

Thats the problem. To believe it, you first have to believe it. Otherwise you’d be silly enough to say it didn’t happen because it goes against everything else that has EVER hadppened EVER.

Ever wonder why God suddenly stopped doing all that stuff? Why God never makes water defy physics in front of crowds of people with video cameras? Why all the impossible accounts from the bible never happen these days when things can be documented and observed?

Also, about the burden of proof - it lies on a person making a claim in the positive. Hence, I dont have to prove that I didn’t kill someone, you have to prove that I did. I dont have to prove that I didn’t steal something, you have to prove that I did. You dont have to disprove my claim that my friend has a magic wand - I have to prove that he does, because I’m making the positive claim.

Unless you have some solid evidence that magic wands dont exist?

248

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< Oh my, I have an idea, how about I tell a lie and when someone points out an impossibility in my story… I’ll just say God did it! or if I want to make shit up just for the sake of it… god did it! >>>[/quote]You’d be lying. God can’t.
[/quote]

My point was being able to explain anything with “god did it!” is useless and means the person saying it is lying or otherwise wrong.

249

I know

250

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]goldengloves wrote:
“and if he is telling the truth.” That’s the real question.[/quote]

Correct.[/quote]

Actually, there’s “information” that Jesus once existed. I can’t remember the spelling of his name but I believe it’s Tacitus, he once made mention of him. I believe he spoke of Jesus over 30 years after his death and made no mention of a resurrection or other biblical events, only speaking of something like an “extreme punishment during the reign of Tiberius”.

Somehow I’m thinking a person performing miracles would have gained the attention of people during that time.

251

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
I would also like to point out that EVEN IF one was Marys lineage, one account goes back 28 generations to David and the other 44.

So, unless Josef and Mary lived in alternate universes, I would at least expect the number of generations to match, give or take one or two.

[/quote]

Why would you?

“More than a dozen solutions have been proposed to harmonize them (the two genealogies). At the very least, it should be recognized that gaps are a common feature in genealogical registries from antiquity. There are also many examples in Scripture of one person having more than one name - a fact that must be considered when attempting to identify the ancestors of Jesus (Solomon/Jedidiah).” - Dr. Hahn.[/quote]

Still, at least a 200 year gap.

No amount of “harmonizing” will fix this.

Now if we assume that they did the best they could “inerrant” is out of the window.

252

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Of course water won’t defy physics because a man raised a staff in front of it. God made the water defy physics.[/quote]

rolls eyes Of course! God did it! Thats all the answer we ever need to anything. Oh my, I have an idea, how about I tell a lie and when someone points out an impossibility in my story… I’ll just say God did it! or if I want to make shit up just for the sake of it… god did it!

Did I ever tell you about my friend carl who has a magic wand? It can make anything he wants levitate and do a bunch of other cool stuff like that. …wait, you say thats impossible?

Thats what makes it magic, silly![/quote]

Levitation isn’t magic.

253

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Of course water won’t defy physics because a man raised a staff in front of it. God made the water defy physics.[/quote]

gee… that makes perfect sense[/quote]

Does to me. If God is omnipotent, he can separate waters infinitely easy.[/quote]

Thats the problem. To believe it, you first have to believe it. Otherwise you’d be silly enough to say it didn’t happen because it goes against everything else that has EVER hadppened EVER.

Ever wonder why God suddenly stopped doing all that stuff? Why God never makes water defy physics in front of crowds of people with video cameras? Why all the impossible accounts from the bible never happen these days when things can be documented and observed?
[/quote]

Because he does them in front of the humble. St. Aquinas and St. Francis both levitated. Sounds like God breaking physics.

[quote]
Also, about the burden of proof - it lies on a person making a claim in the positive. Hence, I dont have to prove that I didn’t kill someone, you have to prove that I did. I dont have to prove that I didn’t steal something, you have to prove that I did. You dont have to disprove my claim that my friend has a magic wand - I have to prove that he does, because I’m making the positive claim.

Unless you have some solid evidence that magic wands dont exist?[/quote]

I could, but you’d never be “satisfied.”

I think you’d want to talk to the Jews about Moses, as I don’t know much about him, just pointing out that if someone wanted to believe in the separating of the Red Sea that they could as God can do it. Now, the issue if we’re required to believe that actually happened or not.

254

[quote]goldengloves wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]goldengloves wrote:
“and if he is telling the truth.” That’s the real question.[/quote]

Correct.[/quote]

Actually, there’s “information” that Jesus once existed. I can’t remember the spelling of his name but I believe it’s Tacitus, he once made mention of him. I believe he spoke of Jesus over 30 years after his death and made no mention of a resurrection or other biblical events, only speaking of something like an “extreme punishment during the reign of Tiberius”.

Somehow I’m thinking a person performing miracles would have gained the attention of people during that time.[/quote]

I wish I had my book on this stuff, I happened to lose it at work (I work with thieves and liars, so no surprise) so I’ll see if I can’t get a second copy. But historically you need three sources to confirm something. Well, there is and even more evidence, Tirib may be able to help you out on this though.

255

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
I would also like to point out that EVEN IF one was Marys lineage, one account goes back 28 generations to David and the other 44.

So, unless Josef and Mary lived in alternate universes, I would at least expect the number of generations to match, give or take one or two.

[/quote]

Why would you?

“More than a dozen solutions have been proposed to harmonize them (the two genealogies). At the very least, it should be recognized that gaps are a common feature in genealogical registries from antiquity. There are also many examples in Scripture of one person having more than one name - a fact that must be considered when attempting to identify the ancestors of Jesus (Solomon/Jedidiah).” - Dr. Hahn.[/quote]

Still, at least a 200 year gap.

No amount of “harmonizing” will fix this.

Now if we assume that they did the best they could “inerrant” is out of the window.

[/quote]

I don’t get this 200 year gap. What does this have to do with anything?

256

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
The underlying claim is that the Bible is inerrant (your claim), therefore you must back it up. You make countless decisions that affect people other than yourself using the Bible as a guide.

Burden of proof is still in your court.

Stop dodging.[/quote]

No. I have not made a claim in regard to the conversation between Rational Gaze and me. Nope, I have yet to make the claim that the Bible is inerrant. You assumed because I challenged Rational Gaze’s statement that I make that claim, but I have not. So, since I haven’t made a claim, then there is nothing to back up. Except I asked for his proof of his statement. Sorry. And, go head find the quote before Rational Gaze’s where I said the Bible is inerrant. I’ll wait.[/quote]

Still dodging I see.

257

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
I would also like to point out that EVEN IF one was Marys lineage, one account goes back 28 generations to David and the other 44.

So, unless Josef and Mary lived in alternate universes, I would at least expect the number of generations to match, give or take one or two.

[/quote]

Why would you?

“More than a dozen solutions have been proposed to harmonize them (the two genealogies). At the very least, it should be recognized that gaps are a common feature in genealogical registries from antiquity. There are also many examples in Scripture of one person having more than one name - a fact that must be considered when attempting to identify the ancestors of Jesus (Solomon/Jedidiah).” - Dr. Hahn.[/quote]

Still, at least a 200 year gap.

No amount of “harmonizing” will fix this.

Now if we assume that they did the best they could “inerrant” is out of the window.

[/quote]

I don’t get this 200 year gap. What does this have to do with anything?[/quote]

Well, let us assume that one geneology is indeed Marys.

First time in the Bible and wholy inadequate to proof that Jesus descended from David because female lineage is pretty much irrelevant here, I would still expect the generations leading back to David to be roughly the same.

If however 10-12 are missing we are talking about a 200 year window here that is unnacounted for.

Both cannot be right, it does not add up.

258

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Still dodging I see.[/quote]

I haven’t made the claim that the Bible is inerrant, show me where I did. If I haven’t made the claim, why do you insist that I prove a claim I haven’t made.

259

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
I would also like to point out that EVEN IF one was Marys lineage, one account goes back 28 generations to David and the other 44.

So, unless Josef and Mary lived in alternate universes, I would at least expect the number of generations to match, give or take one or two.

[/quote]

Why would you?

“More than a dozen solutions have been proposed to harmonize them (the two genealogies). At the very least, it should be recognized that gaps are a common feature in genealogical registries from antiquity. There are also many examples in Scripture of one person having more than one name - a fact that must be considered when attempting to identify the ancestors of Jesus (Solomon/Jedidiah).” - Dr. Hahn.[/quote]

Still, at least a 200 year gap.

No amount of “harmonizing” will fix this.

Now if we assume that they did the best they could “inerrant” is out of the window.

[/quote]

I don’t get this 200 year gap. What does this have to do with anything?[/quote]

Well, let us assume that one geneology is indeed Marys.

First time in the Bible and wholy inadequate to proof that Jesus descended from David because female lineage is pretty much irrelevant here, I would still expect the generations leading back to David to be roughly the same.

If however 10-12 are missing we are talking about a 200 year window here that is unnacounted for.

Both cannot be right, it does not add up.

[/quote]

Why would it matter if 10-12 are missing, this isn’t a modern genealogy.

260

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
I would also like to point out that EVEN IF one was Marys lineage, one account goes back 28 generations to David and the other 44.

So, unless Josef and Mary lived in alternate universes, I would at least expect the number of generations to match, give or take one or two.

[/quote]

Why would you?

“More than a dozen solutions have been proposed to harmonize them (the two genealogies). At the very least, it should be recognized that gaps are a common feature in genealogical registries from antiquity. There are also many examples in Scripture of one person having more than one name - a fact that must be considered when attempting to identify the ancestors of Jesus (Solomon/Jedidiah).” - Dr. Hahn.[/quote]

Still, at least a 200 year gap.

No amount of “harmonizing” will fix this.

Now if we assume that they did the best they could “inerrant” is out of the window.

[/quote]

I don’t get this 200 year gap. What does this have to do with anything?[/quote]

Well, let us assume that one geneology is indeed Marys.

First time in the Bible and wholy inadequate to proof that Jesus descended from David because female lineage is pretty much irrelevant here, I would still expect the generations leading back to David to be roughly the same.

If however 10-12 are missing we are talking about a 200 year window here that is unnacounted for.

Both cannot be right, it does not add up.

[/quote]

Why would it matter if 10-12 are missing, this isn’t a modern genealogy. [/quote]

Because the bible is supposed to hold no contradictions?