Sento--Krav Question

This one is especially for Sento, and anyone else here with serious background in it.

I’m looking to get back into the fighting arts part time. At this point it will be hobby level (as per devildog jim), based simply on my inability to do more on my schedule. However that being said a) I take it very seriously and b) I aim to do my best to find people to train with OUTSIDE of class on my own time, to equate to more total training time weekly.

So question for you Sento, or any others here, is what are the things you look for specifically in a good krav maga school? Now, in general I can pass the “nose test” for most styles to determine a decent teacher, but for krav specifically I’d like to know things you view as supremely important, or things to watch out for, since I know very little about krav specifically and also because…

There is only one krav school within driving distance so no way to “shop around”, so this is why I am asking for more specific “grading” rubric I suppose you could say–I want to be able to make a good assessment of this school to decide.

As some of you may know I have access to an mma gym because of knowing and/or having S&C coached people there , but I am not interested in that aspect of it at the moment. Besides which it poses schedule difficulties wrt: work. That is really the most important aspect to me, but I’m more interested in the “non-cage” aspects. Outside of these two options the fight scene is abysmal where I am unfortunately, and I need training partners more than anything.

Sadly, I know this question is very like the one devildog posed a couple days ago wrt: kung fu and is also rather broad but it’s all I got at the moment.

Advice?

Hey Aragorn,

I actually do not train in Krav Maga, I train in an art called Lysak’s Sento Method/iCAT Martial Arts, so unfortunately I cannot really give you specifics about Krav.

What I would say in terms of looking for a good RMA (Reality Martial Arts) school, which I would categorize both Krav and Sento under, would be:

  1. It addresses Cerebral, Verbal, and Postural self defense tactics
  2. It addresses aspects of Pre, During, and Post personal and interpersonal conflict
  3. It’s basic techniques are simple, direct, gross motor, easy to learn and easy to reproduce, yet it also teaches more advanced skills to it’s more experienced students
  4. It teaches it’s students to be able to both deploy and defend against both conventional and expedient weaponry
  5. it addresses legal and moral aspects of combat
  6. it’s students engage in pressure testing their techniques against fully resisting opponents (sparring) with differing levels of realism (verbal components, environmental factors, different levels of pressure/stress, etc…) at least semi-regularly
  7. it’s ultimate goal is to be able to prepare you to survive an attack from an opponent who is highly trained, athletic, refuses to play by your rules, wants to kill you (and will do whatever they need to in order to do so), and will attack you at the worst possible time and place

If the system or school fits most of those or better yet all of those criteria, then I would consider it a good RMA system/school

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Hey Aragorn,

I actually do not train in Krav Maga, I train in an art called Lysak’s Sento Method/iCAT Martial Arts, so unfortunately I cannot really give you specifics about Krav.

What I would say in terms of looking for a good RMA (Reality Martial Arts) school, which I would categorize both Krav and Sento under, would be:

  1. It addresses Cerebral, Verbal, and Postural self defense tactics
  2. It addresses aspects of Pre, During, and Post personal and interpersonal conflict
  3. It’s basic techniques are simple, direct, gross motor, easy to learn and easy to reproduce, yet it also teaches more advanced skills to it’s more experienced students
  4. It teaches it’s students to be able to both deploy and defend against both conventional and expedient weaponry
  5. it addresses legal and moral aspects of combat
  6. it’s students engage in pressure testing their techniques against fully resisting opponents (sparring) with differing levels of realism (verbal components, environmental factors, different levels of pressure/stress, etc…) at least semi-regularly
  7. it’s ultimate goal is to be able to prepare you to survive an attack from an opponent who is highly trained, athletic, refuses to play by your rules, wants to kill you (and will do whatever they need to in order to do so), and will attack you at the worst possible time and place

If the system or school fits most of those or better yet all of those criteria, then I would consider it a good RMA system/school
[/quote]

Thanks Sento. I could have sworn you trained in krav as well as sento, but I must be spaced out, sorry. Thanks for the run-down. Could you run a bit more specific into #1? What exactly do you mean by postural? I am assuming this is all addressing the psychology of violence and build-up to conflict, but not sure what you mean by postural per se. From my bouncing experience I am assuming you mean things along the lines of keeping your hands non-threatening but in front and raised for quick use, where to balance your weight with a defensive but non-threatening stance during the pre-conflict “interview” stage, things like that. Correct? Cerebral and verbal I am pretty familiar with.

From my personal experience I am used to training often, or rather WAS when I was actively practicing. Unfortunately I don’t think many classes are offered more than 2x a week here and that personally rather concerns me. The other thing that concerns me is the location. Guilt by association is a fallacy obviously–but while I’ve heard good things about it they have come from people whose opinions I have no way to assign reliable value to–and the classes are in an ATA franchise building which immediately sets off all kind of alarm bells to me.

Not an ideal situation in my town in any way at all. It’s this, one of two mcdojos which i despise, a “boxing gym” that would make Irish want to hurl and makes me sick, and the MMA gym I am around. I know the quality of the mma gym and the people there but it doesn’t work with my schedule at all.

No problem, I’ve mentioned Krav in countless posts, so I could easily see why you would have thought that.

The Postural aspect of combat actually has more facets than simply how to position yourself in a good “non threatening combat posture”, though body language is one important facet of it.

It also addresses how you would want to position your body for different terrains/environments (ice, snow, pavement, hills, etc…), against different types of threats (good wrestler, someone with a knife, multiple attackers, etc…), and for different purposes (if you have a blade, if you have a firearm, if you have a stick, if you want to kickbox, if you want to grapple, etc…).

It also addresses the reality that you really never know when or where combat is going to occur or how exactly it’s going to go, so you may find yourself in any possible position/posture that you can image (be it by coincidence or by accident) and therefore you have to be able to fight from pretty much anywhere (meaning that you must be ultra familiar with what your arsenals are, which are available to you at any time and how to deploy them in an unbiased effective manner).

It sounds to me like your options are pretty limited in terms of available training facilities, so even though this place might not be ideal, I’d still at least check it out with an open mind, but of course keep your BS filter on. Good luck.

Miss Parker as well as several other forum members who are Krav instructors might be able to give you more specifics in terms of lineage, or organizations within Krav to look for/stay away from as well.

Good luck

For a Krav Maga school, the better ones are sanctioned by the Israeli Krav Maga Federation. When you test out for your belts, a very specific criteria is outlined by the federation and often there is both a fee charged by the federation and also instructor. Don’t train under anyone less than Black Belt status.

If you can’t find a class, some instructors will do video conference and I’m sure you can purchase videos as well.

Just my experience.

Hi, Aragorn. I’ve been a Krav practitioner for about 7 years and I teach as well. I think Sentoguy has given you great advice. I also notice you said you were a bouncer, so I would use your real-world experience as a measuring stick against what any school tells you, of course.

I would look at what theBeth said & check that out, though most Krav licensing organizations are regionally focused. There are no IKMF schools in my region (Texas). If you’re anywhere near me I’d look for a Krav Maga Worldwide or Krav Maga Alliance affiliation. All an affiliation means, of course, is that they’ve met basic standards for proficiency in practice and instruction. Though I believe you said they’re an ATA school? Is that American TaeKwanDo Association? If they’re offering 2 Krav classes a week at a TKD school, I’d guess they either have an instructor there who has a personal interest in RMA and wants to work on that with like-minded people (good) or the owner of the school took a weekend Krav course because he saw it as a way to expand his client base but has no actual passion for it (bad).

I will say I disagree about training with those who have less than a Black Belt. There aren’t very many Black Belt instructors in Krav, frankly, and it takes several years to get there. By the time someone becomes Black Belt instructor they must have many years of teaching “under their belt” so to speak. Being a Black Belt student doesn’t qualify one to teach. Licensed instructors go through a great deal of training in transfer of knowledge, safety in training, effective classroom management for differing student needs, etc.

One thing that is very important to look for is stress drills. This is an effective way to achieve what Sentoguy was talking about when he mentions having the ability to be competent in different terrains/environments and when you weren’t expecting it. Some of the things I’ve experienced as a trainee are unexpectedly having a glass of water thrown in my face and being choked (so now you’re blind & everything is slippery), being suddenly hooded from behind with a disgusting sweat soaked shirt & getting dragged around backwards by my head, being slapped in the face to stun me before an “attack”, being overwhelmed by multiple attackers, etc. I will also say that doing some groundwork outside in the parking lot is useful, as much as it sucks. The stones embedded in your skin and scrapes from the pavement teach more about avoiding fights than any lecture I’ve heard. Even being exposed to these different types of things once helps to shorten a freeze when one is in danger, so that’s a plus if the school looks for opportunities to work in this fashion.

That being said, safety in training can’t go out the window. I was training in a seminar last month and the excercise was the trainee has his eyes closed & he’ll have 2 attackers with weapons. He opens his eyes on cue, not knowing the location & distance of his 2 attackers. I froze when something I did didn’t work & the teacher had to yell at me to keep going. One of the guys in another group was flailing & kicked one of his partners hard in the face,. It was an extremely stressful, all-out effort drill (hence our different reactions), but the inherent danger in doing this kind of stuff means you have to learn to both push yourself and control yourself under stress. It’s difficult, but if you can’t control yourself when the situation doesn’t call for deadly force you’ll be opening yourself up to doing time for assault or even manslaughter. So this guy needs to rein in it and I need to go harder. The instructor has to be adept enough to be able to get us both where we need to be.

I’d watch out for a school that is very dogmatic. Krav changes frequently by nature to address changing trends in violence. Just in the last year a few techniques have been altered and even removed because too few people can perform them properly under stress. Also, your strengths/abilities and mine will be different. The techniques are there to serve the student’s needs, not the other way around.

So that addresses some things to look for in a school, but you also said you’d like to find someone to train with outside of class. It might be worth it to attend a few of the Krav classes even if you don’t like the place to see if you find someone you click with who might want to train outside of class. The fact that they’re there means they have at least some interest in self-defense type training, so you may get lucky.

Miss Parker, you’re back! Amazing. :slight_smile: Missed your input around here.

Thanks for the extremely detailed post, it was most helpful. Yes I was a bouncer for 4 years, although no longer practicing, and I fully intend on using that experience to litmus test things. I have found that being in a place like that–where you have to go from 0-60 and be decisive at the same time–is excellent training for being able to control yourself and stay aware.

Unfortunately it won’t cover everything of course, also won’t help you control the adrenaline dump. But as I am sure a number of other posters here have experienced, it does teach you valuable lessons about watching your buddies backs and your own.

Sadly I am a few states north of you or I would instantly take your advice. My particular area is not incredibly big as I mentioned and therefore I lack choices, with no time to drive a couple hours out to a major metro area. And yes, most unfortunately it is an American TKD Association dojo. There are not too many more areas that will give off more warning alarms in my head regarding realism and intensity than a place with those initials, and in fact my primary goal is a place with stress tests and sparring. That’s the entire reason for me wanting to get into Krav in the first place actually–I need to know that I can work when it gets dicey.

I had not thought about the dogmatism before, that is a great point. And I had not really considered sucking it up if the school was terrible to see if I could grab a training partner from the class either.

Thanks for the advice! If I may ask, how many days a week do your classes run? I understand as an instructor you’d obviously be teaching more than one class a day, but how many days does each class of students get to train?

Miss Parker, you’re back! Amazing. :slight_smile: Missed your input around here.

Thanks for the extremely detailed post, it was most helpful. Yes I was a bouncer for 4 years, although no longer practicing, and I fully intend on using that experience to litmus test things. I have found that being in a place like that–where you have to go from 0-60 and be decisive at the same time–is excellent training for being able to control yourself and stay aware.

Unfortunately it won’t cover everything of course, also won’t help you control the adrenaline dump. But as I am sure a number of other posters here have experienced, it does teach you valuable lessons about watching your buddies backs and your own.

Sadly I am a few states north of you or I would instantly take your advice. My particular area is not incredibly big as I mentioned and therefore I lack choices, with no time to drive a couple hours out to a major metro area. And yes, most unfortunately it is an American TKD Association dojo. There are not too many more areas that will give off more warning alarms in my head regarding realism and intensity than a place with those initials, and in fact my primary goal is a place with stress tests and sparring. That’s the entire reason for me wanting to get into Krav in the first place actually–I need to know that I can work when it gets dicey.

I had not thought about the dogmatism before, that is a great point. And I had not really considered sucking it up if the school was terrible to see if I could grab a training partner from the class either.

Thanks for the advice! If I may ask, how many days a week do your classes run? I understand as an instructor you’d obviously be teaching more than one class a day, but how many days does each class of students get to train?

Thanks, Aragorn, I’ve missed talking with y’all!

I only teach 2 classes a week now, because I have a real job with crazy hours, but prior to that I was teaching 11 classes a week. The students at our place can take unlimited classes, 6 days a week. On Sundays they offer a free CrossFit class that non-members can also attend and there are informal, non-scheduled rolling and sparring sessions every Saturday after the regular morning classes end. We have early morning/before work classes & noon classes Monday-Thursday, evening classes Monday-Friday.

Stress drills actually have helped me with the adrenaline dump because they’re quite intense. So many other trainees are bigger and stronger than me that I can still get pretty scared. I’ve noticed that in use-of-force events at work I’m more calm and in control than most others, and I’m guessing the drills are why. What they’ve never helped is my horrible auditory exclusion during a real incident. Also, time doesn’t slow down in the drills like it does in real life. So…maybe I’m more adrenalized that I’d like to believe. Booo.

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
Thanks, Aragorn, I’ve missed talking with y’all!

I only teach 2 classes a week now, because I have a real job with crazy hours, but prior to that I was teaching 11 classes a week. The students at our place can take unlimited classes, 6 days a week. On Sundays they offer a free CrossFit class that non-members can also attend and there are informal, non-scheduled rolling and sparring sessions every Saturday after the regular morning classes end. We have early morning/before work classes & noon classes Monday-Thursday, evening classes Monday-Friday.

Stress drills actually have helped me with the adrenaline dump because they’re quite intense. So many other trainees are bigger and stronger than me that I can still get pretty scared. I’ve noticed that in use-of-force events at work I’m more calm and in control than most others, and I’m guessing the drills are why. What they’ve never helped is my horrible auditory exclusion during a real incident. Also, time doesn’t slow down in the drills like it does in real life. So…maybe I’m more adrenalized that I’d like to believe. Booo.[/quote]

Miss Parker,
Welcome Back, your knowledge has been missed. I am out in the zone now and typing on a tiny laptop (not very well either) good to have you back. BTW, the auditory exclusion can be helped with training, but, never really goes away when the crap hits the fan.so, I am sure you are doing fine…Also,I believe you are in corrections(?), Robert posted the Surviving Edge weapons vid from years back, still good. Again, good to hear from you. Stay Safe.

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
Thanks, Aragorn, I’ve missed talking with y’all!

I only teach 2 classes a week now, because I have a real job with crazy hours, but prior to that I was teaching 11 classes a week. The students at our place can take unlimited classes, 6 days a week. On Sundays they offer a free CrossFit class that non-members can also attend and there are informal, non-scheduled rolling and sparring sessions every Saturday after the regular morning classes end. We have early morning/before work classes & noon classes Monday-Thursday, evening classes Monday-Friday.

Stress drills actually have helped me with the adrenaline dump because they’re quite intense. So many other trainees are bigger and stronger than me that I can still get pretty scared. I’ve noticed that in use-of-force events at work I’m more calm and in control than most others, and I’m guessing the drills are why. What they’ve never helped is my horrible auditory exclusion during a real incident. Also, time doesn’t slow down in the drills like it does in real life. So…maybe I’m more adrenalized that I’d like to believe. Booo.[/quote]

Miss Parker,
Welcome Back, your knowledge has been missed. I am out in the zone now and typing on a tiny laptop (not very well either) good to have you back. BTW, the auditory exclusion can be helped with training, but, never really goes away when the crap hits the fan.so, I am sure you are doing fine…Also,I believe you are in corrections(?), Robert posted the Surviving Edge weapons vid from years back, still good. Again, good to hear from you. Stay Safe.[/quote]

Agreed, I am not sure if auditory exclusion ever really goes away. I am fairly certain the loud music in my former place of employment helped me to imagine it was gone though :P. Sort of like punching through a wall through sheer volume; it was near impossible to communicate face to face verbally in that arena so I never noticed as much until “calm down”.

As a general note I think it helps having a job involving incidents–by this I simply mean KNOWING you have to deal with an incident quickly upon notification and that you can’t retreat (and that you’re in a situation where you can’t destroy somebody due to legal ramifications). That means 3 things: 1) you look for ways to get the job done quick as hell because you’re in a crowd and the longer they stay in the crowd the more likely they stir up bystanders or friends see them and 2) you watch the crowd because you have to. You might get fixated, but you HAVE to watch the crowd because there’s 200+ of them and you don’t know if they want to join or not. 3) You learn to try to keep from escalating the violence due to numbers 1 and 2. So there’s a modicum of self control involved (obviously some people are much much better than others at that, and some are problematic).

I’m going to try to pay a visit to the school today. I’ve been putting it off because I have bigger issues to deal with.

Also, stay safe out there idaho

Hey there, Idaho! Well, I was afraid it might be true about the auditory exclusion sticking around. I’ll definitely check out Robert’s video, thanks. And yeah, corrections.