so far out of this forum if you had go some where and you new you where going to fight but could take only one person with you who would you take based on what you have read so far ? i no who id take irish
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
Food for thought: Army Rangers and U.S. Special Forces train BJJ/Grappling
They have said that they don’t intend for soldiers to engage at that range, they do it so soldiers are prepared to fight at any range.
One of the sayings/mottos with Army Combatives program is “The winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun.”
I train with lots of Army combatives guys…some instructors and they really keep that shit in perspective.
[/quote]
Yup. WWII combatives is the best. People act like they’re these super secret commando moves… it’s really “Hit the guy, pull out your entrenching tool, bash him to death, and move on.”
I think it needs to be reiterated that there is a difference between self-defense and a “street-fight”…at least in basic terms.
If you’re in a mutual fight…then you’ve moved beyond self-defense. You open yourself to spending jail time and lots of court time if someone is hurt. Hell,you can honestly be in a self-defense situation and have the same result…just not as likely. Except the court part…people love to sue…even if they were the instigator with bad intentions.
Please keep this in mind with the initial questions/discussion I presented. What techniques/aspects taken from BJJ could help in a self-defense situation. And before you think about that,read jj-dude’s long post(good stuff)…seriously.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
Food for thought: Army Rangers and U.S. Special Forces train BJJ/Grappling
They have said that they don’t intend for soldiers to engage at that range, they do it so soldiers are prepared to fight at any range.
This also doesn’t mean that it’s self-defense- it means that soldiers can’t go around killing people like it’s Guadalcanal anymore. They have to restrain and arrest, and win the battle for “human terrain.”
It kind of mixes with the army’s change of goals in the new wars.
What would be more of a killing art would be like WWII combatives.
Go here. http://www.gutterfighting.org/Main.html
Also, I think the two most important factors in winning a “street fight” are decisiveness and violence of action. Its important to use every resource available including biting, gouging, etc.
Yes. A violent plan done now is better than a complicated on done later.
[/quote]
Yeah, what he said. Just putting in something else, once upon a time the military used pugil sticks for training. These were just padded quarterstaves. Now, the quarterstaff went out of use in warfare, oh, about 1650 (certainly by the end of the 30 Year’s War). The training continued until just a few years ago, when it was superseded by BJJ. What gives? Did the US military just finally get with the program?
Nope. The intent of military training is to instill a variety of non-civilian and non-self-defense modes of thinking. It might well be at some point that you are ordered to hold a position at all costs with no chance of relief. Now, treating it like a SD situation, you’d shoot your commanding officer and run like Hell. ;D Military hand-to-hand training is therefore designed to make you engage on command, do so aggressively and try, to the best of your ability, to exploit the situation to your advantage. Retreat is not an option, nor is your safety a priority. Pugil stick training was kept for this precise reason. BJJ managed to supplant it, but the thinking is still the same.
No officer is going to willingly take a company of his men into combat with the intent of hand to hand. Modern warfare, overwhelmingly, goes to whomever can exploit the upper end of the EM spectrum… Unarmed combat just isn’t that important, except in the very odd case.
(One of my students who went into Army maintains that the chief effect is to have guys trying to submit each other now in off-post bar fights rather than pound the heck out of each other. He thinks the BJJ training has made it less likely they hurt each other. Go figger.)
– jj
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
(One of my students who went into Army maintains that the chief effect is to have guys trying to submit each other now in off-post bar fights rather than pound the heck out of each other. He thinks the BJJ training has made it less likely they hurt each other. Go figger.)
– jj[/quote]
I heard that last part too, I forget where… but they said that BJJ is perfect ironically enough for enforcing social dominance within the army- it’s physical, but it doesn’t actually hurt the guys.
Ok guys, I assumed we were talking about hand to hand combat not guns and knives. If we’re talking weapons then I just pull out my glock 23 and shoot the motherfucker and his friends. And yes I do carry it. No MA is going to be effective against a gun, Duh! And how bout this, while you’re in my triangle I stab you in the fucking eye with my knife.
[quote]jiujitsumania wrote:
Ok guys, I assumed we were talking about hand to hand combat not guns and knives. If we’re talking weapons then I just pull out my glock 23 and shoot the motherfucker and his friends. And yes I do carry it. No MA is going to be effective against a gun, Duh! And how bout this, while you’re in my triangle I stab you in the fucking eye with my knife.[/quote]
When you say “self-defense,” that means we’re talking weapons.
A gun is also not the be-all end-all. It’s a good tool, but anything can be made into a weapon. They can all be used in a fight.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
Ok guys, I assumed we were talking about hand to hand combat not guns and knives. If we’re talking weapons then I just pull out my glock 23 and shoot the motherfucker and his friends. And yes I do carry it. No MA is going to be effective against a gun, Duh! And how bout this, while you’re in my triangle I stab you in the fucking eye with my knife.
When you say “self-defense,” that means we’re talking weapons.
A gun is also not the be-all end-all. It’s a good tool, but anything can be made into a weapon. They can all be used in a fight.[/quote]
Riiight… There’s also RPGs. Those work.
Unless he stabs you first. Though I guess you could see it coming and control his wrist till he falls asleep.
My take on this… if I were ever in a position where I needed BJJ, pulling guard would be the last thing I’d do. Most BJJ guys, at least those I know, know this. Avoid landing on your back, trip or take your target down, but never follow him there. Knee on belly, smash his head in if needed. On the ground, I get tunnelvision. BJJ is a one-on-one sport/MA. When you roll all that matters is your opponent. In a fight, the dude could have a friend, or friends, a knife, a gun. His friend could split you open with a chair. Stay aware. If you have multiple attackers, your goal is no longer to fight back, its to fight to escape.
Skills in BJJ translate just fine to real-life situations, in my experience more-so than karate, but, just like grappling isn’t the definitive answer to MMA, nor is it the answer to self-defense. Self-defense is to MMA, what MMA was to Boxing, karate, wrestling and BJJ; more of the same, but with a plethora of extra dimensions.
Btw, thanks Irish for that article. Great read.
[quote]jiujitsumania wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
Ok guys, I assumed we were talking about hand to hand combat not guns and knives. If we’re talking weapons then I just pull out my glock 23 and shoot the motherfucker and his friends. And yes I do carry it. No MA is going to be effective against a gun, Duh! And how bout this, while you’re in my triangle I stab you in the fucking eye with my knife.
When you say “self-defense,” that means we’re talking weapons.
A gun is also not the be-all end-all. It’s a good tool, but anything can be made into a weapon. They can all be used in a fight.
Riiight… There’s also RPGs. Those work.[/quote]
I’m just saying that not every weapon fits every situation. Look up the Tueller Drill.
[quote]rundymc wrote:
Unless he stabs you first. Though I guess you could see it coming and control his wrist till he falls asleep.
My take on this… if I were ever in a position where I needed BJJ, pulling guard would be the last thing I’d do. Most BJJ guys, at least those I know, know this. Avoid landing on your back, trip or take your target down, but never follow him there. Knee on belly, smash his head in if needed. On the ground, I get tunnelvision. BJJ is a one-on-one sport/MA. When you roll all that matters is your opponent. In a fight, the dude could have a friend, or friends, a knife, a gun. His friend could split you open with a chair. Stay aware. If you have multiple attackers, your goal is no longer to fight back, its to fight to escape.
Skills in BJJ translate just fine to real-life situations, in my experience more-so than karate, but, just like grappling isn’t the definitive answer to MMA, nor is it the answer to self-defense. Self-defense is to MMA, what MMA was to Boxing, karate, wrestling and BJJ; more of the same, but with a plethora of extra dimensions.
Btw, thanks Irish for that article. Great read.[/quote]
100% agreement
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
Ok guys, I assumed we were talking about hand to hand combat not guns and knives. If we’re talking weapons then I just pull out my glock 23 and shoot the motherfucker and his friends. And yes I do carry it. No MA is going to be effective against a gun, Duh! And how bout this, while you’re in my triangle I stab you in the fucking eye with my knife.
When you say “self-defense,” that means we’re talking weapons.
A gun is also not the be-all end-all. It’s a good tool, but anything can be made into a weapon. They can all be used in a fight.
Riiight… There’s also RPGs. Those work.
I’m just saying that not every weapon fits every situation. Look up the Tueller Drill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill[/quote]
First, gun still won.
Second, how many people have been killed with one stab? very few
Third, retreat until I get my gun out and then shoot the motherfucker.
[quote]jiujitsumania wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
Ok guys, I assumed we were talking about hand to hand combat not guns and knives. If we’re talking weapons then I just pull out my glock 23 and shoot the motherfucker and his friends. And yes I do carry it. No MA is going to be effective against a gun, Duh! And how bout this, while you’re in my triangle I stab you in the fucking eye with my knife.
When you say “self-defense,” that means we’re talking weapons.
A gun is also not the be-all end-all. It’s a good tool, but anything can be made into a weapon. They can all be used in a fight.
Riiight… There’s also RPGs. Those work.[/quote]
I read his post more like… you have a gun, I have a knife. To use your gun, you must unholster it, turn off the safe, perhaps cock it, and fire it. To use my knife, I pull it out of pocket and stab you with it.
OR
You have a gun, I have a knife. We are three feet away from each other. My knife is in my hand in a stabbing position, your gun is still in your holster with the safe on.
The handgun is useful, but there are going to be situations where it wouldn’t be optimal. A man with an M4 or MP5 is going to find the usefulness of his weapon suddenly drop when he turns a corner recklessly and is caught off-guard by a dude with a combat knife.
[quote]rundymc wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
Ok guys, I assumed we were talking about hand to hand combat not guns and knives. If we’re talking weapons then I just pull out my glock 23 and shoot the motherfucker and his friends. And yes I do carry it. No MA is going to be effective against a gun, Duh! And how bout this, while you’re in my triangle I stab you in the fucking eye with my knife.
When you say “self-defense,” that means we’re talking weapons.
A gun is also not the be-all end-all. It’s a good tool, but anything can be made into a weapon. They can all be used in a fight.
Riiight… There’s also RPGs. Those work.
I read his post more like… you have a gun, I have a knife. To use your gun, you must unholster it, turn off the safe, perhaps cock it, and fire it. To use my knife, I pull it out of pocket and stab you with it.
OR
You have a gun, I have a knife. We are three feet away from each other. My knife is in my hand in a stabbing position, your gun is still in your holster with the safe on.
The handgun is useful, but there are going to be situations where it wouldn’t be optimal. A man with an M4 or MP5 is going to find the usefulness of his weapon suddenly drop when he turns a corner recklessly and is caught off-guard by a dude with a combat knife.
[/quote]
Exactly.
A rifle can kill someone- but it’s mostly an “offensive” weapon. If a guy comes into your house, it’s better than nothing, but I’d rather have a shotgun. It’s that kind of thing
Because one has a hammer does not make everything a nail.
A little about knives… most times you don’t see’em coming.
[quote]jiujitsumania wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
Ok guys, I assumed we were talking about hand to hand combat not guns and knives. If we’re talking weapons then I just pull out my glock 23 and shoot the motherfucker and his friends. And yes I do carry it. No MA is going to be effective against a gun, Duh! And how bout this, while you’re in my triangle I stab you in the fucking eye with my knife.
When you say “self-defense,” that means we’re talking weapons.
A gun is also not the be-all end-all. It’s a good tool, but anything can be made into a weapon. They can all be used in a fight.
Riiight… There’s also RPGs. Those work.
I’m just saying that not every weapon fits every situation. Look up the Tueller Drill.
First, gun still won.
Second, how many people have been killed with one stab? very few
Third, retreat until I get my gun out and then shoot the motherfucker.[/quote]
Retreat and come back to shoot? Start saving money for your commissary.
Another good question is how many people die from one gunshot…or drop dead immediately after being shot??
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Another good question is how many people die from one gunshot…or drop dead immediately after being shot??[/quote]
That’s a good point also. In the old west they called it the “dead man’s ten”… a fatally wounded guy could go for another ten seconds before he dropped. That’s enough time to kill someone.
[quote]rundymc wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
Ok guys, I assumed we were talking about hand to hand combat not guns and knives. If we’re talking weapons then I just pull out my glock 23 and shoot the motherfucker and his friends. And yes I do carry it. No MA is going to be effective against a gun, Duh! And how bout this, while you’re in my triangle I stab you in the fucking eye with my knife.
When you say “self-defense,” that means we’re talking weapons.
A gun is also not the be-all end-all. It’s a good tool, but anything can be made into a weapon. They can all be used in a fight.
Riiight… There’s also RPGs. Those work.
I read his post more like… you have a gun, I have a knife. To use your gun, you must unholster it, turn off the safe, perhaps cock it, and fire it. To use my knife, I pull it out of pocket and stab you with it.
OR
You have a gun, I have a knife. We are three feet away from each other. My knife is in my hand in a stabbing position, your gun is still in your holster with the safe on.
The handgun is useful, but there are going to be situations where it wouldn’t be optimal. A man with an M4 or MP5 is going to find the usefulness of his weapon suddenly drop when he turns a corner recklessly and is caught off-guard by a dude with a combat knife.
[/quote]
In this situation you could attempt a defensive kick to create distance or just retreat long enough to draw gun that has a trigger safety and a bullet in the chamber.
[quote]jiujitsumania wrote:
In this situation you could attempt a defensive kick to create distance or just retreat long enough to draw gun that has a trigger safety and a bullet in the chamber.[/quote]
You’re missing the point entirely.
Yea I get your point; you can’t be prepared for every situation. However, you offer no solution. I carry a gun, knife, and train hand to hand combat. My point is you have to have the skillset, tools, and mindset to address the most situations possible.