Self-Defense Usefulness of BJJ Techniques

Training
41

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
I know the debate of BJJ as a self-defense art is an ongoing thing…but should it be completely discredited as such in its entirety? What I’m asking is what techniques and aspects of BJJ do any of you feel is of some use in self-defense situations? And why?? OR if you feel that none of BJJ is useful…then explain why .

As for myself,I think some BJJ techniques and attributes from the training are of some use. More so the escapes and control of a person on top of you IF a situation UNINTENTIONALLY goes to the ground,floor,concrete,etc. I could see aspects of the conditioning from BJJ and learning body-control and balance being a plus as well.

But with all of that said,I still think about how easy it can be for a prominent BJJ practitioner to instinctively do what they do in training/competition. Like pulling guard in a situation in a bar or alley. Which could be a very dangerous thing to do.

Anyways…discuss![/quote]

I’ll let you answer this.

Here is the scenario. You are in a bar and someone (not a friend, BTW) comes up behind you and slaps a bear hug on you. What do you do? Why did you do it?

Please answer the question. I’m not being a troll but if you are like most people you will give a better answer than you think. Then I’ll make my comment.

– jj

42

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
I know the debate of BJJ as a self-defense art is an ongoing thing…but should it be completely discredited as such in its entirety? What I’m asking is what techniques and aspects of BJJ do any of you feel is of some use in self-defense situations? And why?? OR if you feel that none of BJJ is useful…then explain why .

As for myself,I think some BJJ techniques and attributes from the training are of some use. More so the escapes and control of a person on top of you IF a situation UNINTENTIONALLY goes to the ground,floor,concrete,etc. I could see aspects of the conditioning from BJJ and learning body-control and balance being a plus as well.

But with all of that said,I still think about how easy it can be for a prominent BJJ practitioner to instinctively do what they do in training/competition. Like pulling guard in a situation in a bar or alley. Which could be a very dangerous thing to do.

Anyways…discuss!

I’ll let you answer this.

Here is the scenario. You are in a bar and someone (not a friend, BTW) comes up behind you and slaps a bear hug on you. What do you do? Why did you do it?

Please answer the question. I’m not being a troll but if you are like most people you will give a better answer than you think. Then I’ll make my comment.

– jj[/quote]

Honestly I don’t know what I would do. I most likely would drop my weight and grab his hands/arms just out of instinct. Other than that I really don’t know…but foot stomps…smashing my head backwards(if they are my height and/or standing tall)…going for fingers would not be out of the question.

But just keeping myself standing would be my first and biggest concern. He has his hands tied up and really can’t do much harm unless he either lets go or takes me down…or bites me in the back…lol. That’s the best I can answer.

43

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
I know the debate of BJJ as a self-defense art is an ongoing thing…but should it be completely discredited as such in its entirety? What I’m asking is what techniques and aspects of BJJ do any of you feel is of some use in self-defense situations? And why?? OR if you feel that none of BJJ is useful…then explain why .

As for myself,I think some BJJ techniques and attributes from the training are of some use. More so the escapes and control of a person on top of you IF a situation UNINTENTIONALLY goes to the ground,floor,concrete,etc. I could see aspects of the conditioning from BJJ and learning body-control and balance being a plus as well.

But with all of that said,I still think about how easy it can be for a prominent BJJ practitioner to instinctively do what they do in training/competition. Like pulling guard in a situation in a bar or alley. Which could be a very dangerous thing to do.

Anyways…discuss!

I’ll let you answer this.

Here is the scenario. You are in a bar and someone (not a friend, BTW) comes up behind you and slaps a bear hug on you. What do you do? Why did you do it?

Please answer the question. I’m not being a troll but if you are like most people you will give a better answer than you think. Then I’ll make my comment.

– jj[/quote]

wow extremely ironic you brought up this situation as this more or less happened to me - except in highschool and not in a bar. any way my friends had all gone up to buy lunch and this day i didnt. i walked over to another friends table when a good friend of a guy who threatened to kill me sat next to me. i was stupid and remained sitting their as he made up some bullshit conversation. next thing i know im bearhugged and lifted out of the table. rly the memory isnt too great but i landed on top of him and began to feel something hitting me in the back of the head and ribs. assuming it was him i smashed his head into the ground with as much momentum i could get in the packed space. within about 20seconds the fight had been broken up and he ran out of the cafeteria teared and bloody. it wasnt untill later that i found out it wasnt the first kid who was hitting me but about 2 or 3 of his friends kicking me in the back. so yea while i “won” that fight if their hadnt been people with enough balls to break it up even if i made a vegetable out of the kid i was on top of the same or worse probably would have happened to me.

so yea in that situation of being bear hugged from the back, if there is multiple attackers i really dont see any plausible way out that doesnt involve killing them… shit i dont even know how’d u do that, you probly couldnt even squeeze out a knife in that situation. thats a spot when it pays to have good friends.

44

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
I’ll let you answer this.

Here is the scenario. You are in a bar and someone (not a friend, BTW) comes up behind you and slaps a bear hug on you. What do you do? Why did you do it?

Please answer the question. I’m not being a troll but if you are like most people you will give a better answer than you think. Then I’ll make my comment.

– jj[/quote]

Are the hands trapped or not? If my hands are free I’d do the wrestling escape where you push your hips out hard while at the same time getting a two on one on the wrist and pushing down hard to break the lock, then of course get away. Sometimes I’m standing around with my arms crossed so it’s a possibility I could be attacked and have my hands free. I’ve been surprised with a bear hug with my arms trapped before and what I instinctively did was I just dropped my weight(and i mean low, like i was trying to drop my butt on the ground) quickly while grabbing behind his legs and pushing backwards to knock him over. I don’t know if that’s a great escape or not but it worked. Bear hugs are tough to get out of because you have to react before your weight is taken off of the ground. There was another one I learned where as soon as you feel the attacker grab you, you drop to a knee and thrust your shoulder forward hard like you are going to roll, and it flips them onto the ground hard. It was amazing in practice, I was throwing giant dudes with no effort, but never got to try it when i wasn’t expecting it. Plus if it does turn out to be a friend just screwing around with you, you could probably accidentally fuck his shit up.

An alternative to all this is to scream rape.

45

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
jj-dude wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
I know the debate of BJJ as a self-defense art is an ongoing thing…but should it be completely discredited as such in its entirety? What I’m asking is what techniques and aspects of BJJ do any of you feel is of some use in self-defense situations? And why?? OR if you feel that none of BJJ is useful…then explain why .

As for myself,I think some BJJ techniques and attributes from the training are of some use. More so the escapes and control of a person on top of you IF a situation UNINTENTIONALLY goes to the ground,floor,concrete,etc. I could see aspects of the conditioning from BJJ and learning body-control and balance being a plus as well.

But with all of that said,I still think about how easy it can be for a prominent BJJ practitioner to instinctively do what they do in training/competition. Like pulling guard in a situation in a bar or alley. Which could be a very dangerous thing to do.

Anyways…discuss!

I’ll let you answer this.

Here is the scenario. You are in a bar and someone (not a friend, BTW) comes up behind you and slaps a bear hug on you. What do you do? Why did you do it?

Please answer the question. I’m not being a troll but if you are like most people you will give a better answer than you think. Then I’ll make my comment.

– jj

Honestly I don’t know what I would do. I most likely would drop my weight and grab his hands/arms just out of instinct. Other than that I really don’t know…but foot stomps…smashing my head backwards(if they are my height and/or standing tall)…going for fingers would not be out of the question.

But just keeping myself standing would be my first and biggest concern. He has his hands tied up and really can’t do much harm unless he either lets go or takes me down…or bites me in the back…lol. That’s the best I can answer.
[/quote]

Big_Boss is huge, I don’t know who the fuck is gonna bear hug him except for the Hulk. It wouldn’t be a bear hug it’d be like a dinosaur hug.

46

Regarding the bear hug, there’s actually something I remember I learnt from a few years back that actually works suprisingly well. When they have you in the aforementioned bear hug, lunge foward while pushing your hands (together) out in a spear like motion.

Fortunately, I’ve yet to have tested this in a real situation, but it seems to work well when you have drunken mates trying to pin you.

47

I’m by no means a streetfighting expert but I’ve been through and seen a lot of violence. Most fights I’ve seen seem to take place in a close stand up “clinch?” range and often in a tight space, bars, clubs, motel rooms or halls (no room for squaring off or dancing around) I have seen a bunch go to the ground or at least one of those involved get dropped during.

I’ve seen a few bbj guys do some serious damage (no fancy shit, mostly control the person to get on top & G&P, chokes, and some shoulder twists whatever) but it’s always been one on one. I’ve seen some bbj guys get hurt bad taking on multiple attackers. I did have a friend (bbj guy) who got held up at gun point.

The guy asked for his money, so my friend pulled out his wallet and held his hand up high in a non threatening way, then when the guy looked up at the wallet and went to reach for it, somehow my friend got a hold of the guys arm with the gun and took him to the ground while disarming him then beat the shit out of the guy. True story and can be verified.

I have never seen anyone seriously try to bearhug someone except for bouncers. I’ve never seen anyone try to stab someone using a wide overhead chop. I’ve never seen anyone throw a punch in a real fight like they teach in a lot of MA. You know, the one straight single punch that stops while your arm is extended, the one you can supposedly block with the wax on wax off.

Anyways I’d think knowledge in all fighting ranges would best help prepare for the unexpected, but all in all from what I’ve seen best to stay on your feet and with a way out if possible.

48

most guys that are involed in the fighting arts will be fairly strong for there size and fast the respone is to drop your weight or to throw the body back as fast as you can as your aponent gos back he will release is grip in order to break is fall or your head will make contack with his as you throw your self back the main thing is to react as soon as contact is made and not to freeze all fighting arts can work in differnt circomestances i agree but a strong desire to win is what decides a one on one i only brought the bite thing up because it is what happens and most guys when bit will give up right away or theres the foot stomp or the shin scrape with your heal what ever you do you have to react as soon as contact is made

49

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
jj-dude wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
I know the debate of BJJ as a self-defense art is an ongoing thing…but should it be completely discredited as such in its entirety? What I’m asking is what techniques and aspects of BJJ do any of you feel is of some use in self-defense situations? And why?? OR if you feel that none of BJJ is useful…then explain why .

As for myself,I think some BJJ techniques and attributes from the training are of some use. More so the escapes and control of a person on top of you IF a situation UNINTENTIONALLY goes to the ground,floor,concrete,etc. I could see aspects of the conditioning from BJJ and learning body-control and balance being a plus as well.

But with all of that said,I still think about how easy it can be for a prominent BJJ practitioner to instinctively do what they do in training/competition. Like pulling guard in a situation in a bar or alley. Which could be a very dangerous thing to do.

Anyways…discuss!

I’ll let you answer this.

Here is the scenario. You are in a bar and someone (not a friend, BTW) comes up behind you and slaps a bear hug on you. What do you do? Why did you do it?

Please answer the question. I’m not being a troll but if you are like most people you will give a better answer than you think. Then I’ll make my comment.

– jj

Honestly I don’t know what I would do. I most likely would drop my weight and grab his hands/arms just out of instinct. Other than that I really don’t know…but foot stomps…smashing my head backwards(if they are my height and/or standing tall)…going for fingers would not be out of the question.

But just keeping myself standing would be my first and biggest concern. He has his hands tied up and really can’t do much harm unless he either lets go or takes me down…or bites me in the back…lol. That’s the best I can answer.
[/quote]

Lots of good things to do and reading over them, what do you notice? First thing people do is get away. Why? Because the bad guys is holding you to do things to you. Think about that in the context of grappling. Nobody with intent is going to run up and just hold you. In the case of a bear hug, it will probably to try and slam you, run you into something, hold you while a buddy of theirs plays punching bag. But the least likely thing to do is just hold you. This will only occur if they have an overwhelming advantage, aren’t serious about injuring you or have a professional obligation, such as being an EMT with a patient.

On the floor, it is the same story. Only someone with a lot of training or other huge advantage is going to think about holding you, otherwise they too are going to do something to you. And it won’t be pretty – like they will deploy a weapon (common way to use grappling with gang bangers, they want you down since it is easier to kill you), have his friends stomp you or whatever. And I should point out something else about using floor work on people who have no training: they might not know you are just trying to restrain them and think you are going to hold them down for something much worse. A fight can go from damn nasty to lethal in an instant because of this. They might have been willing to beat the crap out of you at the start, but when it not merely isn’t going their way but now you are up to something nefarious, count on them deploying any weapons they have. Holding down someone who is sure they have nothing to lose is a lot harder. (This is different for law enforcement, because bad guys know the cops have to restrain them. Again, floor fighting can be very, very useful in many professions. It is the fact that it is pretty much a show stopper in sprt matches that has given it the formidable reputation it has.)

(True story. A friend of mine had a friend who did BJJ down in Uraguay. He was witnessing the robbery of an elderly woman so jumped in, did a takedown on the perp and tied him up. The perp’s buddy, who was driving a the getaway scooter, walked over and shot the guy in the head 3 or 4 times. Yes, he died and the suspects got away scott free. Just because a technique works does not mean it is the right technique for the situation. Awareness, strategy and tactics will keep you safe, not techniques.)

Only people with either way too much training are going to hop up and down and think they have the answer. My point is that for some really weird reason – and I’ve done all this stuff for decades – people give perfectly reasonable answers to standing situations but, since BJJ and the rise of the UFC, promptly make goofy assumptions about floor fighting. I dub this the “Indiana Jones Effect”. Movies and TV convince everyone that being an archaeologist is terrifically exciting, what with supernatural artefacts, lunatics Nazis and the like. The reality is you get a 10’ x 10’ piece of dirt, a toothbrush and spend your professional life excavating. If you are lucky, you find a few nifty potsherds…

So, does this help frame the question a bit better?

– jj

50

Food for thought: Army Rangers and U.S. Special Forces train BJJ/Grappling

Also, I think the two most important factors in winning a “street fight” are decisiveness and violence of action. Its important to use every resource available including biting, gouging, etc.

51

[quote]jiujitsumania wrote:

First of all, if you are fighting someone with no experience with grappling you will probably be pretty successful.
[/quote]

Why would you assume that? You can grapple. Great. That doesn’t help you when you’re getting in your car and I hit you with a bat.

Some of you fuckin people will never understand the difference between the ring and real life.

Absolutely untrue. See the end of Marc Macyoung’s post that I put up- that’s a false statistic used by people trying to push grappling as self defense.

[quote]
HOWEVER, why limit yourself? Train Jiu Jitsu, judo, wrestling, boxing, kickboxing…etc.
There is no one fighting system that will prepare you for all the situations you are likely encounter in a self defense situation. You need to have good striking, takedowns, and ground control to be a proficient fighter. [/quote]

That I agree with. But being a “proficient fighter” still doesn’t stop bullets or blades. It’s a complete toss up when you’re talking street violence.

52

[quote]jiujitsumania wrote:
Having said this If I had to learn 1 art for self defence it would be BJJ since against multiple attackers the only real self defence is sprinting. You may get some shots in but eventually the numbers will come to bear.

Great point

side note: If you’ve ever been caught in a GOOD triangle you’ll know that there is no way to open your mouth to bite.[/quote]

Bullshit. Sometimes with multiple attackers you’ll have to fight. The simplest thing to do is to try and get them in a line and strike. You try to keep them from coming at you from all sides, and attempt to duck and dodge long enough to knock a couple down and take off.

Exactly how many “Self defense” situations do you people think are 1 on 1? I want to live in THAT world.

And by the way- if you catch me in a triangle, I’m going to stab you. I’m not even kidding. If I felt my air way being cut off in a fight, I would move from “fighting” to “combat”, and I would stab you. Have fun with your triangle.

53

[quote]jiujitsumania wrote:
Food for thought: Army Rangers and U.S. Special Forces train BJJ/Grappling
[/quote]

They have said that they don’t intend for soldiers to engage at that range, they do it so soldiers are prepared to fight at any range.

This also doesn’t mean that it’s self-defense- it means that soldiers can’t go around killing people like it’s Guadalcanal anymore. They have to restrain and arrest, and win the battle for “human terrain.”

It kind of mixes with the army’s change of goals in the new wars.

What would be more of a killing art would be like WWII combatives.

Go here. http://www.gutterfighting.org/Main.html

[quote]
Also, I think the two most important factors in winning a “street fight” are decisiveness and violence of action. Its important to use every resource available including biting, gouging, etc.[/quote]

Yes. A violent plan done now is better than a complicated on done later.

54

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Here is the scenario. You are in a bar and someone (not a friend, BTW) comes up behind you and slaps a bear hug on you. What do you do? Why did you do it?

Please answer the question. I’m not being a troll but if you are like most people you will give a better answer than you think. Then I’ll make my comment.

– jj[/quote]

The odds is I’m going to elbow the shit out of him and try and turn around to start hitting.

Of course, if he did this at a bar it’s nearly guaranteed one of my friends would hit him as soon as he did it.

55

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

Lots of good things to do and reading over them, what do you notice? First thing people do is get away. Why? Because the bad guys is holding you to do things to you. Think about that in the context of grappling. Nobody with intent is going to run up and just hold you. In the case of a bear hug, it will probably to try and slam you, run you into something, hold you while a buddy of theirs plays punching bag. But the least likely thing to do is just hold you. This will only occur if they have an overwhelming advantage, aren’t serious about injuring you or have a professional obligation, such as being an EMT with a patient.

On the floor, it is the same story. Only someone with a lot of training or other huge advantage is going to think about holding you, otherwise they too are going to do something to you. And it won’t be pretty – like they will deploy a weapon (common way to use grappling with gang bangers, they want you down since it is easier to kill you), have his friends stomp you or whatever. And I should point out something else about using floor work on people who have no training: they might not know you are just trying to restrain them and think you are going to hold them down for something much worse. A fight can go from damn nasty to lethal in an instant because of this. They might have been willing to beat the crap out of you at the start, but when it not merely isn’t going their way but now you are up to something nefarious, count on them deploying any weapons they have. Holding down someone who is sure they have nothing to lose is a lot harder. (This is different for law enforcement, because bad guys know the cops have to restrain them. Again, floor fighting can be very, very useful in many professions. It is the fact that it is pretty much a show stopper in sprt matches that has given it the formidable reputation it has.)

(True story. A friend of mine had a friend who did BJJ down in Uraguay. He was witnessing the robbery of an elderly woman so jumped in, did a takedown on the perp and tied him up. The perp’s buddy, who was driving a the getaway scooter, walked over and shot the guy in the head 3 or 4 times. Yes, he died and the suspects got away scott free. Just because a technique works does not mean it is the right technique for the situation. Awareness, strategy and tactics will keep you safe, not techniques.)

Only people with either way too much training are going to hop up and down and think they have the answer. My point is that for some really weird reason – and I’ve done all this stuff for decades – people give perfectly reasonable answers to standing situations but, since BJJ and the rise of the UFC, promptly make goofy assumptions about floor fighting. I dub this the “Indiana Jones Effect”. Movies and TV convince everyone that being an archaeologist is terrifically exciting, what with supernatural artefacts, lunatics Nazis and the like. The reality is you get a 10’ x 10’ piece of dirt, a toothbrush and spend your professional life excavating. If you are lucky, you find a few nifty potsherds…

So, does this help frame the question a bit better?

– jj[/quote]

Great post. Great, great post.

56

[quote]jiujitsumania wrote:
Food for thought: Army Rangers and U.S. Special Forces train BJJ/Grappling

Also, I think the two most important factors in winning a “street fight” are decisiveness and violence of action. Its important to use every resource available including biting, gouging, etc.[/quote]

You first have to assess what is necessary…most importantly,if any action is necessary in the first place.

57

Big Boss- I suggest you read “Meditations on Violence” by Rory Miller. I harassed Parker into reading it and she loves it.

You would especially like it because he’s a prison guard too. I think you guys would definitely share some views on things.

58

bear huggs might work i slapped one on this guy and he did not know what to do glad he didnt know that bite trick ha ha

59

[quote]zuffa wrote:
bear huggs might work i slapped one on this guy and he did not know what to do glad he didnt know that bite trick ha ha[/quote]

FUCK ME! That dog is huge!!

60

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
jiujitsumania wrote:
Food for thought: Army Rangers and U.S. Special Forces train BJJ/Grappling

They have said that they don’t intend for soldiers to engage at that range, they do it so soldiers are prepared to fight at any range.
[/quote]

One of the sayings/mottos with Army Combatives program is “The winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun.”

I train with lots of Army combatives guys…some instructors and they really keep that shit in perspective.