SCOTUS Looking at College Admissions

[startingagain]

think the answer you would get from the proponents of AA would often be until equality of outcome has been achieved.

So… never lol.

[zecarlo]

@TrevorLPT

minority students who are as smart and capable as their white peers are liable to end up with worse grades and lower test scores on average.

The idea isn’t that minority students should be held to a lower standard because they’re less capable, its that they – on average – have more things working against them, so their academic performance may be lower despite an equal amount of talent and hard work.

You can let that individual perform your surgeries. I’ll take the individual who excelled academically.

@TrevorLPT

basing admissions standards on other metrics – say, having different standards for students who live in under-funded and impoverished zip codes or something like that – would be a better way to take those factors into account without relying on race as a proxy

The problem is, those other metrics and won’t make them more likely to succeed in college. The ability to get good grades and test well in high school are the best predictors for success in college.

[zecarlo]

Think again. They are going to hold higher achieving students back, while making it easier for low achievers, to make things appear equal. Believe me, I worked in public education. The nexus of CRT and marxism is found in public schools. Pragmatism has given way to activism.

[startingagain]

I mean, up to a point you are correct. But I don’t believe they can acheive equality of outcome without measures that would be so unpopular that it’d cause rioting. It’d have to be equality of outcome based on percentage of population, right? Good luck with that lol.

[doogie]

In Texas, the top 10% of a graduating high school class can pretty much automatically get admitted to UT or A&M or any other state school. That ensures access for students who excelled at lower SES schools. That is a pretty good compromise to me.

[zecarlo]

@startingagain

But I don’t believe they can acheive equality of outcome without measures that would be so unpopular that it’d cause rioting.

It would require social engineering.

[zecarlo]

@doogie

That ensures access for students who excelled at lower SES schools. That is a pretty good compromise to me.

Provided an A at one school is the same as an A in every other school.

[startingagain]

They’re already doing social engineering, but it has its limits. And there will always be a pushback.

I am a firm believer in the cream of the crop always rising. Some cultures are just better at producing success than others when it comes to school and higher-paying careers. The differences in outcomes I’ve seen with African immigrants in the U.S. compared to American-born blacks was insane, and it was all culture.

[zecarlo]

@startingagain

They’re already doing social engineering, but it has its limits.

The wrong kind which is easy to swallow. Welfare as a lifestyle is an example.

@startingagain

compared to American-born blacks was insane, and it was all culture.

And by calling it culture it becomes sacrosanct.

[twojarslave]

@twojarslave

Anyone who supports AA policies from a “racial justice” or “anti-racism” basis is a racist themselves. You’re literally saying that people need to be judged on their racial characteristics.

@TrevorLPT

While I’m mostly agnostic towards AA policies and my intuition is that they are seriously flawed, I don’t think this statement is true. The argument that I’ve heard from AA proponents is that due to historical and current racism, minority students who are as smart and capable as their white peers are liable to end up with worse grades and lower test scores on average.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not attributing malicious intentions, racist or otherwise, towards our well-meaning liberal friends. Our well-meaning liberal friends have very good intentions overall, it’s just that they can’t translate those good intentions into good outcomes through government policies. In fact these lofty ideas, when faithfully implemented, seem to make things much worse for most people.

Here’s another way of looking at affirmative action.

“Hear me out guys. We need to hold white people to higher standards than everyone else.”

Can you see the racism yet?

[zecarlo]

@twojarslave

Our well-meaning liberal friends have very good intentions overall

They don’t because they aren’t real liberals, they’re leftists.

@twojarslave

In fact these lofty ideas, when faithfully implemented, seem to make things much worse for most people.

They get the result that was intended.

[NickViar]

@zecarlo

I’ll take the individual who excelled academically.

I’ll take the Black individual-not the child of Nigerian immigrants, but of the fat chick in the Projects. That’s anti-racist.

[mnben87]

@startingagain

The differences in outcomes I’ve seen with African immigrants in the U.S. compared to American-born blacks was insane, and it was all culture

I’d say circumstance matters too. I think the African immigrant students were filtered as well, which will make the academic difference seem greater.

[startingagain]

The ones I knew weren’t filtered. Their parents came from Africa and were poor by American standards. The families worked together as a unit (extended families too sometimes) and made sure each other succeeded in college. And after graduation, they are now living together like Asians do, so the money pools together instead of being wasted by having each kid rent a different apartment.

Where I currently live, there are a lot of African families here. They’re nearly all doing well. The families live together, pool their money and tend to emphaize education. Despite being new to America, they’re doing much better than the American-born blacks. And a lot of these people came as refugees here.

[TrevorLPT]

@twojarslave

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not attributing malicious intentions, racist or otherwise, towards our well-meaning liberal friends. Our well-meaning liberal friends have very good intentions overall, it’s just that they can’t translate those good intentions into good outcomes through government policies. In fact these lofty ideas, when faithfully implemented, seem to make things much worse for most people.

I fully agree with this.

@twojarslave

“Hear me out guys. We need to hold white people to higher standards than everyone else.”

Can you see the racism yet?

If that is the argument being made, then yes: that is racist. However, if the argument is:

“Hear me out guys. We should take people’s life circumstances and the hundreds of years of racism and oppression in this country into consideration when evaluating someone’s capabilities”

I don’t think thats a racist argument. It is discriminatory by definition, but it is not inherently racist, because it does not assume anything about any individual based on their race per se. It just acknowledges that when a group of people is systemically oppressed for generations, their children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren are likely to be at a disadvantage when it comes to academic performance, regardless of being just as smart and capable as their advantaged peers.

Also, white people aren’t being held to a higher standard than everyone else. That would be Asians. haha

[anna_5588]

As an Asian American, I am glad nixing affirmative action is on the table

Note: my little bro was accepted by 3 top 10 ranked unis and I’m at a rather well regarded one myself so it’s not that I’m bitter

[TrevorLPT]

@zecarlo

You can let that individual perform your surgeries. I’ll take the individual who excelled academically.

What if they excel academically in college, excel in med school, and crush their rotations? You’re still going for the white guy who got marginally better grades in high school because his school received 50% more funding per student?

@zecarlo

The problem is, those other metrics and won’t make them more likely to succeed in college. The ability to get good grades and test well in high school are the best predictors for success in college.

Do you think overcoming adversity says anything about a person and their abilities?

Imagine you have two students: student A and student B. Student A goes to a school which receives $6000 per student in annual funding, lives in a low-crime and zero-poverty area, has a two-parent home with a stay-at-home mom that helps with homework on nights and weekends. Student B goes to a school which receives $3000 per student in annual funding, lives in a high-crime area with a 75% poverty rate, and lives with a single mother who works two full-time jobs. Student A gets a 1350 on his SAT and Student B gets a 1300.

Do you really think that Student A is more likely to succeed in college? Do you think that once you put them in the same academic environment, its possible Student B actually does a better job? If I had to hire one of them for basically anything, I’d go for Student B any day of the week.

[TrevorLPT]

That is an insanely dumb policy. Holy shit. haha

[mnben87]

@TrevorLPT

Imagine you have two students: student A and student B. Student A goes to a school which receives $6000 per student in annual funding, lives in a low-crime and zero-poverty area, has a two-parent home with a stay-at-home mom that helps with homework on nights and weekends. Student B goes to a school which receives $3000 per student in annual funding, lives in a high-crime area with a 75% poverty rate, and lives with a single mother who works two full-time jobs. Student A gets a 1350 on his SAT and Student B gets a 1300.

Student B probably has a higher potential than A (given the close scores, from a much worse environment), but is still less likely to succeed in college due to having little support.

If student B makes it though, they will probably be more successful in their actual field work.

[TrevorLPT]

@mnben87

Student B probably has a higher potential than A (given the close scores, from a much worse environment), but is still less likely to succeed in college due to having little support.

This is true, and I think it can potentially be mitigated by educational institutions doing more to provide support for those students and working hard to get them “up to speed” academically. If you combined this approach with admissions standards that looked at socioeconomic status rather than race, I think the net result would be more “equitable” outcomes and more qualified college graduates overall. Everybody wins.