[quote]slimthugger wrote:
Android_Impostor wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Android_Impostor wrote:
I think he’s talking about steroid users.
And how is steroids cheating, pray tell?
Probably makes him feel better about his lack of results by saying steroids are cheating.
Funny,I have made better gains that most juice heads I know. Not sure if you recall Ben Johnson or Marion Jones. They had their medals taken because their drug use gave them an unfair advantage. Period. Same goes with any sport. Look,Listen and Learn.[/quote]
Making more progress than a couple of local juiceheads means nothing, because there are many people that use, but don’t know what the hell they are doing, so they end up looking the same as when they started.
Anabolic assistance will take take you beyond what you would have achieved naturally, for sure, but only if you know what you’re doing first. You can’t sit on your ass, eat like shit, train half-heartedly and expect to look like a pro.
Hard work and sacrifice are involved whether you juice or not. That is something you need to get your head around.
As for Ben Johnson and Marion Jones, they are very poor examples to illustrate your point: do you really think that surpassing two athletes that don’t specifically train for hypertrophy (one of whom is female) is something to be proud of?
Using steroids for sporting performance is a totally different ball game to using them for bodybuilding. The applications are nothing alike. Maybe you should ‘Look,Listen and Learn’ before commenting on a topic you clearly know nothing about.
But surely when it comes to bodybuilding, the results are more important than the journey.
What is the point of a journey if you haven’t gotten anywhere at the end of it?
Given the choice, I would prefer to make the bulk of my progress in ten years rather than enjoy the journey and do it in twenty.
I would much rather ‘hit my mark’ early and spend those extra years with a better physique.
The whole point of bodybuilding is to look, think and feel differently from when you began.
Perseverance, focus, commitment and dedication are admirable traits, but unless you have progress to justify all of the training and sacrifice, it’s all really for nothing.
I’m still not convinced that having good character or admirable intentions is enough to qualify someone as a successful bodybuilder.
[/quote]
I never said the results weren’t important. In my post I specifically referenced a ‘serious BB’. But enjoying the journey is also a part of BB. Who doesn’t enjoy getting a few more reps than the previous workout? Or adding weight to the bar? Or changing up a programs or busting through a plateau.
I don’t think I said anything about good character or admirable intentions, rather that a serious BB is a cut above Joe average because they actively pursue a life time project.
I also didn’t say anything about taking 20 years as opposed to 10. Your next post contradicted your first and agreed with me;
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
When referring to natty bb = fitness comp I did indeed mean mostly the natty shows which I am seeing over here in Germany (which have a lot of people who are way too skinny for their height to be dieting down) and the untold thousands of male human beings who use “natural” as a fucking excuse for why they are still sitting at a 400 lbs total after 10 years of training.
I’m glad that at least the champions you posted (which I have never seen competing) would be recognizable as bodybuilders.
Gotta say though, the guys in the “Examples from the recent 2008 Natural Olympia in Ca” picture are imo still too light for their height… And more is definitely possible drug-free.
I assume the guy you posted before competes in the masters?
[/quote]
My first example does compete in the masters. The 2008 photo, while ‘light’ for some does show good BB physiques. I don’t think anyone would wonder if they are BB’ers on not.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
roybot wrote:
TRAJJ wrote:
Body building is a journey so enjoy the trip.
But surely when it comes to bodybuilding, the results are more important than the journey.
What is the point of a journey if you haven’t gotten anywhere at the end of it?
Given the choice, I would prefer to make the bulk of my progress in ten years rather than enjoy the journey and do it in twenty.
I would much rather ‘hit my mark’ early and spend those extra years with a better physique.
The whole point of bodybuilding is to look, think and feel differently from when you began.
Perseverance, focus, commitment and dedication are admirable traits, but unless you have progress to justify all of the training and sacrifice, it’s all really for nothing.
I’m still not convinced that having good character or admirable intentions is enough to qualify someone as a successful bodybuilder.
Good post. People who do this “for the fun of it” at the expense of significant progress are simply weekend warriors who wish they were more than they are.
Your journey will be judged by your progress made at the end of it. Otherwise, you could have stayed home.[/quote]
No, your journey will be judged by your progress ‘while’ your on it. We don’t train for a lifetime and then get judged at the end of it. We get judged, either personally or by professionals’ during various intervals of our journey which is how we know what corrections, if any to make.
[quote]TRAJJ wrote:
Professor X wrote:
roybot wrote:
TRAJJ wrote:
Body building is a journey so enjoy the trip.
But surely when it comes to bodybuilding, the results are more important than the journey.
What is the point of a journey if you haven’t gotten anywhere at the end of it?
Given the choice, I would prefer to make the bulk of my progress in ten years rather than enjoy the journey and do it in twenty.
I would much rather ‘hit my mark’ early and spend those extra years with a better physique.
The whole point of bodybuilding is to look, think and feel differently from when you began.
Perseverance, focus, commitment and dedication are admirable traits, but unless you have progress to justify all of the training and sacrifice, it’s all really for nothing.
I’m still not convinced that having good character or admirable intentions is enough to qualify someone as a successful bodybuilder.
Good post. People who do this “for the fun of it” at the expense of significant progress are simply weekend warriors who wish they were more than they are.
Your journey will be judged by your progress made at the end of it. Otherwise, you could have stayed home.
No, your journey will be judged by your progress ‘while’ your on it. We don’t train for a lifetime and then get judged at the end of it. We get judged, either personally or by professionals’ during various intervals of our journey which is how we know what corrections, if any to make.
[/quote]
Your last statement draws a clear line between your views and mine: I am coming from a ‘pure’ bodybuilding perspective. Meaning that every workout and every meal is a means to an end. In basic terms, if you want to get somewhere, why not take the fastest route.
Your point about having to be judged by other people in order to improve is one way of looking at it, but surely a better way is to take a map on your journey so you know exactly where you will end up, and when.
Allowing other people to judge your own progress is a dangerous path to take. Many will belittle your achievements to make themselves feel better for not doing anything. Outside opinion is not an accurate indicator of progress, especially when those people don’t know what you’re trying to achieve. Read anything Chris Shugart has written about ‘toxic people’ as proof of this.
Would you jump in your car and rely on directions from strangers to get where you want to go, or would you use your own judgement to plot your way before you leave?
I can see now that you are approaching the topic from the perspective of a martial artist. You obviously value the cultivation of the spirit as well as the body.
Philosophically, I can see where you are coming from. Having said that, we go back to the argument of ‘chasing two rabbits at the same time’.
If you don’t care about spiritual improvement, then you will pursue a single goal and very likely gain more muscle mass than someone that wants to reach a spiritual nirvana as well.
It all boils down to priorities. Gaining the most muscle in the least time is what most of the people on this forum want, after all. Spiritual enlightenment can be found elsewhere. It certainly isn’t a primary concern of a bodybuilder, so you can’t say that it defines what a bodybuilder is.
I honestly can’t see how anyone can enjoy a journey if they have no assurance of getting there other than blind faith…
I hope that post makes sense.
If anybody is wondering, no, I haven’t been been smoking anything.
[quote]roybot wrote:
Your last statement draws a clear line between your views and mine: I am coming from a ‘pure’ bodybuilding perspective. Meaning that every workout and every meal is a means to an end. In basic terms, if you want to get somewhere, why not take the fastest route.[/quote]
Regardless of the time it takes, it is still a progression. I’m going to enjoy it.
Of which I’ve seen able example from posters on this forum.
Your assuming a person is not going to be wise about who they ask.
I would ask someone that I trust and has been there ahead of me.
I don’t have a clue why you’d make this conclusion. It is not accurate. I simply enjoy what I’m doing, when I’m doing it. Enjoying something can help with the results.
You’ve been the only one to assume this. I don’t train on blind faith. I use sound, time tested methods.
Quite honestly, no. You’ve made quite a few assumptions on my comments that don’t at all line up with the points I’ve put forth. But I do appreciate your effort and have enjoyed the discussion.
[quote]TRAJJ wrote:
roybot wrote:
Your last statement draws a clear line between your views and mine: I am coming from a ‘pure’ bodybuilding perspective. Meaning that every workout and every meal is a means to an end. In basic terms, if you want to get somewhere, why not take the fastest route.
Regardless of the time it takes, it is still a progression. I’m going to enjoy it. [/quote]
First of all, most members of this forum would rather reach their bodybuilding goals sooner rather than later. You don’t have to train for a lifetime to be judged at the end of it, but you can strive to make progress in as short a time frame as possible and actually walk around with the body you desire for longer.
That is what Professor X was saying. This approach will require that you set aside the enjoyment for a while, until you get where you want to be. Who knows, you may actually reach your goals while you are still young.
(EDIT: that last sentence is meant as a general comment, not sarcasm).
Training for a better physique is no substitute for possessing a better physique. That is where the real enjoyment is to be had.
If you want to ‘enjoy the journey’, then that’s entirely up to you. The fact remains that you are still in the minority.
I’m not assuming anything. People will offer their opinion on what you do whether you ask for it or not.
If you’re in a position to pick and choose who gives an opinion on what you do, then you’re lucky. Not many people have that luxury.
[quote]
Would you jump in your car and rely on directions from strangers to get where you want to go
I would ask someone that I trust and has been there ahead of me. [/quote]
If you are going to respond to my comments, I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t edit them to suit your argument. You seem to be making a habit of that, as you’ve left out a lot of my main points. My full quote was: "Would you jump in your car and rely on directions from strangers to get where you want to go, or would you use your own judgement to plot your way before you leave? ".
Puts a fresh perspective on things when you post a quote in its entirety.
Sorry, I made the mistake of assuming you were a martial artist and that you might’ve possibly carried over the lessons you learned into other avenues of your life, including bodybuilding.
So much for trying to come at a subject from someone else’s point of view. I’ll try not to make such a wild assumption in future.
By the way, I’m not convinced that simply enjoying something is going to help you excel. If a person wants to be exceptional, then sooner or later they’re gonna have to get serious and apply themselves if they want to take a pursuit as far as possible. Anybody that thinks otherwise will never realize their full potential, or even come close to it.
The very best don’t rely on enjoyment to get where they want to be. Enjoyment is fine for the regular person, but it also means that they will stay regular and not get to that next level. Otherwise, anyone that ever enjoyed anything would excel at it.
Ask anybody that has ever achieved anything extraordinary about the secret of their success. I doubt anyone would tell you that enjoyment got them where they wanted to go.
I never said that you specifically trained on blind faith. The point I was making is that if someone trains for enjoyment, then they are less likely to reach their goals than someone that puts enjoyment aside and made a commitment to reach their goals as soon as possible.
For those that do that, the enjoyment will come after they reach their goals. I can’t see how that is so hard to understand.
[quote]
I hope that post makes sense.
Quite honestly, no. You’ve made quite a few assumptions on my comments that don’t at all line up with the points I’ve put forth. But I do appreciate your effort and have enjoyed the discussion. [/quote]
And you’ve made just as many incorrect assumptions about what I’ve said.
Not everything I say is intended to refute your opinions. I am allowed to make statements relating to the original topic without engaging you in an argument.
I agree with quite a lot of what you’ve said. I’ve already said that. You seem to think that every post I make is designed to prove you wrong. That isn’t true.
I just don’t agree that ‘enjoying the journey’ is necessary to be a successful bodybuilder. I doubt the bodybuilders in those photos you posted would credit their success to ‘enjoying the journey’.
Having the drive to visualize and reach the goals they set for themselves quickly and efficiently would be a far more likely explanation.
I never said the results weren’t important.
[/quote]
True, you never said results weren’t important. You argued that the journey is just as important as the end goal. I’m not saying you’re wrong to believe that. You’re free to make that choice. I’m saying that most would disagree, because enjoying the journey isn’t a priority for them and it certainly won’t bring optimal results.
[quote]
In my post I specifically referenced a ‘serious BB’. But enjoying the journey is also a part of BB. Who doesn’t enjoy getting a few more reps than the previous workout? Or adding weight to the bar? Or changing up a programs or busting through a plateau. [/quote]
Bear in mind that we are talking specifically about bodybuilding, not competitive lifting. Increasing weight or reps, pushing through plateaus and changing programs are not the primary concern.
Building and increasing muscle is. All those things you’ve mentioned are just means to an end, tools to get the job done.
There is a big distinction between being satisfied at the end of a workout and being satisfied with your results after years of training. The latter is more important to most people.
Some kid at the gym may get a wicked pump after a set of curls. Do they get enjoyment out of it? Sure. That doesn’t mean they will get anywhere because of it.
On the other hand, enjoyment is the last thing on my mind in the middle of a set of 20 rep squats, but I’ll do them anyway because I know they get results. The enjoyment comes later with the results.
[quote]
I don’t think I said anything about good character or admirable intentions, rather that a serious BB is a cut above Joe average because they actively pursue a life time project. [/quote]
Here is what you said: " Turning off the T.V. and getting into the gym. Just that alone says quite a bit about someone."
You really shouldn’t make a statement like that if you are talking specifically about serious bodybuilders.
If you weren’t trying to say that it’s a sign of good character just to get up off the couch and go to the gym, where exactly were you going with that comment? Simply turning off the T.V. and going to the gym does not make someone a bodybuilder.
This thread is about what defines a bodybuilder, not the merits of the average gymgoer.
Where exactly did I try to attribute that statement to you? I was just pointing out that someone that pursues their bodybuilding goals without worrying about ‘enjoying the journey’ is going to get there sooner than the person who does.
I am not ‘putting words in your mouth’, as you keep trying to make out.
I made that remark because I believe that people that want to bodybuild seriously are better off making the best use of their time instead worrying of ‘enjoying the journey’. They should be far more concerned about how long it will take to reach their goals, then go after them.
It’s entirely up to you if you want to take your time, just don’t expect to have progressed as much as if you’d have stopped worrying about this ‘journey’ stuff.
Again, we keep returning to this elusive ‘journey’. I didn’t say anything about having to enjoy a journey in that quote, nor did I imply that a bodybuilder stops after reaching a certain level of development, so it doesn’t contradict what I said before at all.
Plus, it doesn’t help that you’ve left out the first half of my definition because it fitted your argument better.
Posting half a definition doesn’t do much to reflect its original context.
I train three days a week, what exactly is wrong with that?
You tell me. Post some pictures of yourself so we can see how that is working for you.
It was stated very recently in a different thread that most of the people who would actually pass for any sort of “bodybuilder” or even larger football player spend in excess of 4 hours a week in the gym. It was an observation. Where do you fall within that?
I think most of the people even looking to only train 3 days a week aren’t putting enough into this to make th best progress. You, on the other hand, may personally push yourself harder. That has yet to be seen.[/quote]
Think a lot of people at intensemuscle.com would disagree that 3 days a week is insufficient and many of those are built like brick shit houses.
And before anyone brings up the fact that the typical DC practitioner already has a solid foundation then I think we can all agree that building muscle becomes increasingly difficult the larger you are (i.e. going from 230 to 260 is much harder than going from 190 to 220) and there are many examples of DC doing exactly that, making large people even larger on a 3 days a week program.
As with all things the amount of effort you put into those 3 days naturally determines the level of success you will achieve. I think thats what you are saying too.
The basic DC program takes me 4-5 hours per week incl warm-up.
I think most of the people even looking to only train 3 days a week aren’t putting enough into this to make th best progress. You, on the other hand, may personally push yourself harder. That has yet to be seen.
Think a lot of people at intensemuscle.com would disagree that 3 days a week is insufficient and many of those are built like brick shit houses.
[/quote]
Good for them. The average person on this site, judging by the unimpressive pictures I’ve seen, are NOTHING like that. Most of the people here have arms under 15" and throw insults and accusations at people who actually do stand out. Maybe their concern should NOT be worrying about only training 3 days a week.
I think most of the people even looking to only train 3 days a week aren’t putting enough into this to make th best progress. You, on the other hand, may personally push yourself harder. That has yet to be seen.
Think a lot of people at intensemuscle.com would disagree that 3 days a week is insufficient and many of those are built like brick shit houses.
Good for them. The average person on this site, judging by the unimpressive pictures I’ve seen, are NOTHING like that. Most of the people here have arms under 15" and throw insults and accusations at people who actually do stand out. Maybe their concern should NOT be worrying about only training 3 days a week.[/quote]
Maybe, but beyond that I think it’s been pretty well-established that those same folks grossly underestimating how much food they need to grow.
Because, if those arms are staying at around 15", they’re probably not even gaining the fat that would come with even SLOPPY weight gain.
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
Professor X wrote:
winkel wrote:
I think most of the people even looking to only train 3 days a week aren’t putting enough into this to make th best progress. You, on the other hand, may personally push yourself harder. That has yet to be seen.
Think a lot of people at intensemuscle.com would disagree that 3 days a week is insufficient and many of those are built like brick shit houses.
Good for them. The average person on this site, judging by the unimpressive pictures I’ve seen, are NOTHING like that. Most of the people here have arms under 15" and throw insults and accusations at people who actually do stand out. Maybe their concern should NOT be worrying about only training 3 days a week.
Maybe, but beyond that I think it’s been pretty well-established that those same folks grossly underestimating how much food they need to grow.
Because, if those arms are staying at around 15", they’re probably not even gaining the fat that would come with even SLOPPY weight gain.
Dig?
[/quote]
No doubt. Which is why I wrote “[quote]I think most of the people even looking to only train 3 days a week aren’t putting enough into this to make th best progress.[/quote]” Most people who are truly motivated are not worrying about whether they ONLY train 3 days a week. They are going to train as much as it takes to see optimal progress. Someone intermediate or advanced can obviously make that call on their own and will clearly have enough muscle mass already to justify their actions.
That is a hugely different mindset than the weekend warriors on this site who use 3 day a week programs because they think any more than that will make them “unbalanced” or that “normal people don’t train like bodybuilders”.
You guys do realize this board isn’t exactly filled with advanced lifters?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Funny,I have made better gains that most juice heads I know. Not sure if you recall Ben Johnson or Marion Jones. They had their medals taken because their drug use gave them an unfair advantage. Period. Same goes with any sport. Look,Listen and Learn.
And yet magically, that has nothing to do with this thread. Steroid use is a big part of bodybuilding, whether you like it or not.
I think by your logic, protein powders should be banned, because not everyone has access to the same ratio of casein to whey. That’s an unfair advantage. They should take away fish oil too, you can just eat fish. Surge is a no no because you can get it all from food. In fact lifting weights is banned too, because they’re going against their natural physique.
Steroids are part of bodybuilding and sports. The sooner the sheeple accept this the better.
EDIT: Funny you would mention Ben Johnson. You should take a closer look at the person who took the gold in his stead. Ephedrine, Pseudoephedrine… accidental use my fucking ass.[/quote]
You forgot fake tan. It can make people who are not usually tanned very brown. Its a chemical that takes away from the people who spend there time tanning normally, and is quick and far more effective than the sun.
Another thing, I see a lot of high school kids playing sports even though they will never get to the pros. They do so perhaps in hopes of it, but they also do it for the sake of rising above those that…oh, I don’t know…sit on their computers and hurl sarcasm through the net. They do it for the enjoyment and the sake of accomplishment regardless of what level they rise to. Same for competition in BB.
[/quote]
Yes so when they are adults and they don’t go pro, if a person ask them what do they do they can’t say they are baseball players, or basketball players, or whatever they did in highschool. They can only say I play ball on the weekends, or I can play, but thats not what they are. What they are is a sales man, or a architect, or whatever with NO aspirations of concentrating their energy on the sport they participated in. If they decide to go swing a bat on saturday they can’t run and say hey everybody I’m a baseball player.
He is in great shape and a number 1 amateur. I doubt when he is preparing for the next competion he walks around at 4.5% before cutting. But despite this even he states he is a fitness consultant and personal trainer. Bodybuilding is his hobby.
I have no problem with everyone on this site saying their hobby is bodybuilding. If it’s your hobby you can be good at it or suck at it, but your not a bodybuilder in my eyes until your successful at it. By successful I don’t mean you just won the MR. O, just that when you say your a bodybuilder nobody laughs.