Saving Your CNS While Going to Failure?

Training Bodybuilding
61

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Really not bizarre, what with all the authors and various lifters beating their chests and shouting that only at “failure” is muscle growth achieved.

So, anyone being exposed to that could very reasonably read the I, Bodybuilder program and be convinced that to really work, it needs to have “failure” added in all over the place (or at all, for that matter.)[/quote]

And yet, to get to that point, they would have to have either not read, ignored or misunderstood all the material CT wrote on how to execute ‘the perfect rep’ - a large portion of which explains in detail why failure is not necessary…that’s the part that really set my head spinning…
[/quote]

I don’t go to absolute failure even on my last set. Absolute failure means the weight falls and you can’t lift it. That is a great way to injure yourself.

Many of these concepts are very hard to explain over the internet and would be more clear if someone were actually watching while someone else lifted.

In general, I have just enough energy in me on my last set to set the weight down safely. You can call that “one rep before failure” or whatever and the concept is still the same.

However, someone mentioned literally stopping a set when the weight begins to slow down. Most beginners do not need to do that. They need to push those reps through because they are also training their endurance, recovery and strength thresholds…all of which are NOT static from newbie to advanced.

62

Agreed.

Even further, with many or most beginners I think it is valuable for them to at times in fact go for 100.00% effort and stop the set only when despite absolute best application of will to lift the bar, it just won’t go: failure has in fact been reached.

Because if there’s no experience in this, they may well underestimate what they CAN do and are cutting sets many reps short of what their muscles still really could have done.

And it’s a whole 'nother story failing with a relatively light weight – being a beginning trainer and assuming typical beginner strength – and particularly with a machine or isolation exercise than it is to drive the system this hard, truly to the max, and actually fail with heavy weight, particularly in a compound free-weight movement.

The last is really not necessary for a productive, gains-producing workout.

Having sets where you could not have gotten another rep without form being too much compromised, in other words doing “as many as possible” is another story.

And it seems to me that in I, BB for many of the exercises by the time the last set of an exercise is performed, another good rep would not have been possible. At least that has been the case for me.

63

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
So, let me ask this: Am I training wrong?

Last night was my ‘bench/chest’ night. 3 exercises: BB Bench, CGBP (to 1/2 foam), and incline DB press.

I did 3 sets of regular bench (not counting a couple warmup sets). The last rep of the last set, my spotter put fingers under the bar for the last 6" of the rep or so after letting me hang there motionless for a couple seconds. In other words, a grinder. The couple/few reps leading up to that were most definitely ‘slower’.

Next was CGBP. My heaviest set, again, spotter needed to complete the rep or I would have been pinned. Last set after my ‘heaviest’ set, I wanted to just crank out reps. I got 15 and on the last one, I couldn’t move it off my chest. Complete and utter fail. The couple/few reps leading up to that were most definitely ‘slower’.

Lastly, 3 sets of incline db presses, the last rep of the last set needing a spot or I would have failed.

So, in all, 3 (finger) spots needed on 3 exercises, after slowing down toward the end, and an additional ‘rep out’ to complete and utter fail (thought I could get the last one).

This is somewhat typical (if I have a spotter) for me the past few years and I have been progressing in weights and growing. I’m eating for growth.

So----Am I training wrong?[/quote]

I would say not.

There is a difference between circuits-burning-out, smoke-coming-out-of-the-ears with truly maximal effort and the weight failing to go versus putting in a solid and proper amount of neural drive (if that’s a correct term) for the lift but winding up needing a finger spot or the bar not moving and deciding to end it, rather than to strain futilely against the bar with smoke coming out of the ears.

The latter method winds up decreasing the volume that one can do quite considerably and is not worth it.

Your method as described sounds productive. It is not the only way to be productive, but it surely is among them.

64

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t go to absolute failure even on my last set. Absolute failure means the weights falls and you can’t lift it. That is a great way to injure yourself.

Many of these concepts are very hard to explain over the internet and would be more clear if someone were actually watching while someone else lifted.[/quote]

I must admit Professor X’s Webcam Workout Challenge would be pretty darned entertaining. It would certainly silence a few extremely vocal posters…

[quote]
In general, I have just enough energy in me on my last set to set the weight down safely. You can call that “one rep before failure” or whatever and the concept is still the same.

However, someone mentioned literally stopping a set when the weight begins to slow down. Most beginners do not need to do that. They need to push those reps through because they are also training their endurance, recovery and strength thresholds…all of which are NOT static from newbie to advanced.[/quote]

I agree with you - all the more reason why certain trainees shouldn’t be doing a program like I, BB to conserve their delicate CNSs. I’m waiting for the spate of posters blaming their lack of progress on elevated cortisol levels in the wake of the recent Truth About Adrenal Fatigue article…

65

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
So, let me ask this: Am I training wrong?

Last night was my ‘bench/chest’ night. 3 exercises: BB Bench, CGBP (to 1/2 foam), and incline DB press.

I did 3 sets of regular bench (not counting a couple warmup sets). The last rep of the last set, my spotter put fingers under the bar for the last 6" of the rep or so after letting me hang there motionless for a couple seconds. In other words, a grinder. The couple/few reps leading up to that were most definitely ‘slower’.

Next was CGBP. My heaviest set, again, spotter needed to complete the rep or I would have been pinned. Last set after my ‘heaviest’ set, I wanted to just crank out reps. I got 15 and on the last one, I couldn’t move it off my chest. Complete and utter fail. The couple/few reps leading up to that were most definitely ‘slower’.

Lastly, 3 sets of incline db presses, the last rep of the last set needing a spot or I would have failed.

So, in all, 3 (finger) spots needed on 3 exercises, after slowing down toward the end, and an additional ‘rep out’ to complete and utter fail (thought I could get the last one).

This is somewhat typical (if I have a spotter) for me the past few years and I have been progressing in weights and growing. I’m eating for growth.

So----Am I training wrong?[/quote]

I would say not.

There is a difference between circuits-burning-out, smoke-coming-out-of-the-ears with truly maximal effort and the weight failing to go versus putting in a solid and proper amount of neural drive (if that’s a correct term) for the lift but winding up needing a finger spot or the bar not moving and deciding to end it, rather than to strain futilely against the bar with smoke coming out of the ears.

The latter method winds up decreasing the volume that one can do quite considerably and is not worth it.

Your method as described sounds productive. It is not the only way to be productive, but it surely is among them.[/quote]

Thanks. I’d hate to think it was (totally) wrong, because it’s working for me, but I guess that’s the point. Some days are more intense than others. That’s just life. I might go weeks like that and then ‘the body’ says “you’re not doing it like that today”. I’ve learned to listen to ‘the body’ :wink:

I should have qualified that if I didn’t have a spotter, then I absolutely would leave ‘one in the tank’ so as not to get pinned/injured. I just think that if you can push through most of that last rep with just a finger spot or so, a rep you wouldn’t attempt without a spotter, then you should take advantage and give it everything you can (if it feels right at the time on that particular day during that particular lift).

66

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t go to absolute failure even on my last set. Absolute failure means the weights falls and you can’t lift it. That is a great way to injure yourself.

Many of these concepts are very hard to explain over the internet and would be more clear if someone were actually watching while someone else lifted.[/quote]

I must admit Professor X’s Webcam Workout Challenge would be pretty darned entertaining. It would certainly silence a few extremely vocal posters…

I am convinced most of these people just enjoy failure.

67

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
So, let me ask this: Am I training wrong?

Last night was my ‘bench/chest’ night. 3 exercises: BB Bench, CGBP (to 1/2 foam), and incline DB press.

I did 3 sets of regular bench (not counting a couple warmup sets). The last rep of the last set, my spotter put fingers under the bar for the last 6" of the rep or so after letting me hang there motionless for a couple seconds. In other words, a grinder. The couple/few reps leading up to that were most definitely ‘slower’.

Next was CGBP. My heaviest set, again, spotter needed to complete the rep or I would have been pinned. Last set after my ‘heaviest’ set, I wanted to just crank out reps. I got 15 and on the last one, I couldn’t move it off my chest. Complete and utter fail. The couple/few reps leading up to that were most definitely ‘slower’.

Lastly, 3 sets of incline db presses, the last rep of the last set needing a spot or I would have failed.

So, in all, 3 (finger) spots needed on 3 exercises, after slowing down toward the end, and an additional ‘rep out’ to complete and utter fail (thought I could get the last one).

This is somewhat typical (if I have a spotter) for me the past few years and I have been progressing in weights and growing. I’m eating for growth.

So----Am I training wrong?[/quote]

I would say not.

There is a difference between circuits-burning-out, smoke-coming-out-of-the-ears with truly maximal effort and the weight failing to go versus putting in a solid and proper amount of neural drive (if that’s a correct term) for the lift but winding up needing a finger spot or the bar not moving and deciding to end it, rather than to strain futilely against the bar with smoke coming out of the ears.

The latter method winds up decreasing the volume that one can do quite considerably and is not worth it.

Your method as described sounds productive. It is not the only way to be productive, but it surely is among them.[/quote]

Thanks. I’d hate to think it was (totally) wrong, because it’s working for me, but I guess that’s the point. Some days are more intense than others. That’s just life. I might go weeks like that and then ‘the body’ says “you’re not doing it like that today”. I’ve learned to listen to ‘the body’ :wink:

I should have qualified that if I didn’t have a spotter, then I absolutely would leave ‘one in the tank’ so as not to get pinned/injured. I just think that if you can push through most of that last rep with just a finger spot or so, a rep you wouldn’t attempt without a spotter, then you should take advantage and give it everything you can (if it feels right at the time on that particular day during that particular lift).[/quote]

I think it depends whether or not you were trying to activate the cluster for the force ramp set?

Joking - for anyone without a sense of humor

68

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
So, let me ask this: Am I training wrong?

Last night was my ‘bench/chest’ night. 3 exercises: BB Bench, CGBP (to 1/2 foam), and incline DB press.

I did 3 sets of regular bench (not counting a couple warmup sets). The last rep of the last set, my spotter put fingers under the bar for the last 6" of the rep or so after letting me hang there motionless for a couple seconds. In other words, a grinder. The couple/few reps leading up to that were most definitely ‘slower’.

Next was CGBP. My heaviest set, again, spotter needed to complete the rep or I would have been pinned. Last set after my ‘heaviest’ set, I wanted to just crank out reps. I got 15 and on the last one, I couldn’t move it off my chest. Complete and utter fail. The couple/few reps leading up to that were most definitely ‘slower’.

Lastly, 3 sets of incline db presses, the last rep of the last set needing a spot or I would have failed.

So, in all, 3 (finger) spots needed on 3 exercises, after slowing down toward the end, and an additional ‘rep out’ to complete and utter fail (thought I could get the last one).

This is somewhat typical (if I have a spotter) for me the past few years and I have been progressing in weights and growing. I’m eating for growth.

So----Am I training wrong?[/quote]

That’s just terrible!

Just kidding :stuck_out_tongue:

If it took several weeks (for example) to get to the stage where you are into new poundage territory, then it’s more acceptable and common to be “busting your balls”…but if you do that “straight off the bat” (like after a de-load/rest) then it tends to lead to a very quick peak/cycle. Going up at a steadier pace (at least at the beginning/middle of a “cycle”) tends to help you “solidify” the gains more.

69

Op you need to

  1. Stop thinking
  2. Eat enough to gain weight
  3. Get stronger every week
  4. Stay off the internet for a few months

If you do number two (LOL), number three will happen as long as the effort is there. Number four will help you out with number one.

70

So, the one question here that hasn’t been brought up is, should I train my CNS on push or pull day?

71

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
So, the one question here that hasn’t been brought up is, should I train my CNS on push or pull day?[/quote]

.

72

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I am convinced most of these people just enjoy failure. [/quote]

Haven’t you heard? Failure isn’t failure at all if it’s accompanied by the appropriate
cop-out. Cop-outs excuse people from having to put forth enough effort to actually fail in the first place. So, a cop-out makes an individual ‘failure-proof’. That’s why cop-outs are so popular. I mean, you can’t fail at what you never tried, can you?

It’s like the grown-up version of the fat kid forging sick notes to dodge P.E… For example:

“I can’t workout for more than three days a week, because it’s a well-known fact that training on consecutive days will force my cortisol production to dangerously high levels, and hamper my progress”.

Urr, yes it will hamper your progress, but not for the reasons you think.

(that’s a relatively new one, but I predict it will become very popular, very quickly)

The CNS is so last season; the cortisol look is in.

73

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]GuerillaZen wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

On top of that, I just had a debate with a guy in another thread who called Bonez out for being clueless because he misspelled the word “ridiculous”…which in itself is ridiculous and implies some of these people are dumb enough to avoid advice from successful lifters unless it sounds like a physics lecture.

I get the impression people in general just aren’t as “superintelligent” as they think they are.[/quote]

You call one post a debate? That I have seen, Bonez never actually offers much in the way of advice. Its amazing how much you read into ONE post. I have been around here a long time and most of what I do in the gym is adapted from what I have read in your own Professor X: A Request Thread, Modok, and C_C. I am listening to big guys, and big guys only, but I do take offense to people being douche bags just for the sake of being douche bags. I also don’t listen to the pseudo-scientists like Dankid or Trextacy. Yet, you are trying to lump me into the same category with these guys when I do not agree with them, have never pretended to agree with them, have never-quotes a study or even an article on this website, and rarely offer-advice that I am not yet qualified to give.

Generally, I will ONLY offer advice on fatloss, as I have lost 90 lbs of fat. That said, I manage to give out this advice sparingly and without insulting the person I am giving it to.

I go to the gym and work my ass off. I read a lot on here, and rarely post because I do not have much to offer that has not been said a thousand times.

[/quote]

Are you that big of a pussy that you have to call me out indirectly? I didn’t even know that post you made about a spelling error was about me.

And now my screen name is popping up in another one of your posts. And the post isn’t even directed to me. Get a life dude.

[/quote]

It was posted on the internet forum which is the only place in life I could post it for you to see it. It wasn’t hidden. But I do not do internet wars and caps lock cock measuring, sorry.

74

[quote]GuerillaZen wrote:

I think it makes you a big person for admitting that you were wrong, but to the first part of this quote: Isn’t that the point of the forum? To give bodybuilding advice to people who want to look and train like bodybuilders? The whole point is to share ideads, thoughts, about bodybuilding training, right? I mean, if a post is overly needy then I understand your point but it would be more constructive just not to post. However, it seems like people who have genuine questions are attacked radically for simply daring to seek advice. [/quote]

The problem isn’t when people ask questions individual to their training. It’s when they ask questions that they would’ve already found the answers to if they had dedicated ANY appreciable amount of time to reading.

It would be like going to a movie festival and asking how to turn on a camera, and what it means to “zoom in”.

75

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t go to absolute failure even on my last set. Absolute failure means the weights falls and you can’t lift it. That is a great way to injure yourself.

Many of these concepts are very hard to explain over the internet and would be more clear if someone were actually watching while someone else lifted.[/quote]

I must admit Professor X’s Webcam Workout Challenge would be pretty darned entertaining. It would certainly silence a few extremely vocal posters…

I am convinced most of these people just enjoy failure. [/quote]

That’s what I wrote numerous times, that many people on here are self-defeatist or just like striking meaningless conversation and asking for advice they deep down don’t even give a shit about.