Saving Your CNS While Going to Failure?

Training Bodybuilding
21

[quote]mr popular wrote:
I don’t know about you guys but all of this stuff just sounds completely retarded.

Unless you’re some kind of elite athlete I don’t understand why anyone would worry about “frying out” their nervous system by lifting some freaking weights.

I work up to a heavy weight and then lift it as many times as I can. If I don’t think I’m going to get the next rep of a squat or bench press, I don’t go for it because I don’t want to crush myself. If I’m doing lateral raises or cable rows or curls, I might go until I literally can’t complete a full rep.

Six days a week.

Not a big deal.[/quote]

Yes, but the “failure” heroes believe that nothing happens until they are burning out their nervous systems either failing to complete reps despite absolute best effort to do so, or at least labelling their last rep as “failure” though it wasn’t, but still was grinding.

You don’t have their problems because you know that it is not necessary to do this for gains, and it can even be counterproductive.

22

Can everyone calm down, I just posted because I sought some help to a question, and i was fully aware that I was far less knowledgeable that 90-95% people on this site, which is why i asked it. I thank everyone who has helped by giving their input and I now get that there is no need for constant failure on every set to stimulate hypertrophy. I’m a work in progress =p

23

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:
I don’t know about you guys but all of this stuff just sounds completely retarded.

Unless you’re some kind of elite athlete I don’t understand why anyone would worry about “frying out” their nervous system by lifting some freaking weights.

I work up to a heavy weight and then lift it as many times as I can. If I don’t think I’m going to get the next rep of a squat or bench press, I don’t go for it because I don’t want to crush myself. If I’m doing lateral raises or cable rows or curls, I might go until I literally can’t complete a full rep.

Six days a week.

Not a big deal.[/quote]

Yes, but the “failure” heroes believe that nothing happens until they are burning out their nervous systems either failing to complete reps despite absolute best effort to do so, or at least labelling their last rep as “failure” though it wasn’t, but still was grinding.

You don’t have their problems because you know that it is not necessary to do this for gains, and it can even be counterproductive.[/quote]

When did lifting a weight become so damned complicated?

24

It’s not a question of people being calm or not: what my point is it’s a matter of whether your question has a fundamental and common misunderstanding in it or not.

It’s just a surface change in what you do if that isn’t addressed.

25

And you’ve done this a little bit, but “there is no need for constant failure on every set” is just putting a toe in the water but still apparently hanging on to a fundamentally wrong idea (that there is a need for “failure” on at least some sets.)

26

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
It’s not a question of people being calm or not: what my point is it’s a matter of whether your question has a fundamental and common misunderstanding in it or not.

If you don’t want to look at the underlying issue, then fine, but I think it would be productive for you to do so.[/quote]

People seem to only want to get responses that tell them what they want to hear. telling this guy his foundation of knowledge is completely wrong seems to piss off those who spend more time worrying about “theory” than how hard they worked…thus all of the uneducated CNS bullshit going around the forum.

27

I was saying calm down to people who were like getting aggressive toned, but it might be an common misunderstanding. What I thought was necessary for muscle growth was muscle overload and going to failure, and I was trying to experiment and combine different philosophies so I could do so with minimal physical under recovery.

But I guess the problem itself is the actual training to failure on each set.

28

[quote]mr popular wrote:
I don’t know about you guys but all of this stuff just sounds completely retarded.

Unless you’re some kind of elite athlete I don’t understand why anyone would worry about “frying out” their nervous system by lifting some freaking weights.

I work up to a heavy weight and then lift it as many times as I can. If I don’t think I’m going to get the next rep of a squat or bench press, I don’t go for it because I don’t want to crush myself. If I’m doing lateral raises or cable rows or curls, I might go until I literally can’t complete a full rep.

Six days a week.

Not a big deal.[/quote]

Thank you for that sliver of sanity in an increasingly crazy world.

29

[quote]kjmont wrote:
I was saying calm down to people who were like getting aggressive toned.[/quote]

Goodness. Maybe some of you just need thicker skin.

How the hell do some of you expect to have the nuts to bench press 400+lbs if “aggressive toned” posts cause this much of a problem for you?

30

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]kjmont wrote:
I was saying calm down to people who were like getting aggressive toned.[/quote]

Goodness. Maybe some of you just need thicker skin.

How the hell do some of you expect to have the nuts to bench press 400+lbs if “aggressive toned” posts cause this much of a problem for you?[/quote]

None of this has gotten under my skin, but the only problem that this caused is that people were wasting time questioning my intelligence rather than to help me with my goal which was to get advice from people with different perspectives so I can better my training.

31

Cliffnotes:

See weight, lift weight fast, repeat.

When weight if lifted slower, stop set.

eat, eat, eat.

32

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]kjmont wrote:
I was saying calm down to people who were like getting aggressive toned.[/quote]

Goodness. Maybe some of you just need thicker skin.

How the hell do some of you expect to have the nuts to bench press 400+lbs if “aggressive toned” posts cause this much of a problem for you?[/quote]

That’s right. As people read, I apologized in some of my recent posts for my sometimes sarcastic and hostile tone. The reason why I became so hot-headed on here is because of people who want others to work–provide online training and nutrition counseling, scour hundreds of articles–for free! And even when VERY detailed information is provided, most of the annoying and thick-headed people only return to show that they completely dismissed and discarded all good, solid information given to them.

You’ll have a guy come come on here listing his program or diet. Others will provide pretty good feedback. Weeks and sometimes DAYS later, the same poster will come back with a new diet and/or training routine wanting new feedback, clearly showing that he didn’t give a shit about what anyone wrote in the first place!

Another example that causes intense frustration of those more experienced and knowledgeable is the inability of grown adults on here to understand the most basic shit on earth - shit as basic as warming and ramping up. We needed a goddamn 50-page thread on how to warm up and ramp up.

Do you know how frustration it is to have to outline OVER AND OVER again stuff like this?

Warmup sets
50
60
70

Ramp up sets
80
90

Work set
100

I mean really, some people on here can drive others to drink - or get really fucking irritated!

33

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]kjmont wrote:
I was saying calm down to people who were like getting aggressive toned.[/quote]

Goodness. Maybe some of you just need thicker skin.

How the hell do some of you expect to have the nuts to bench press 400+lbs if “aggressive toned” posts cause this much of a problem for you?[/quote]

Hell yeah!

34

[quote]bugeishaAD wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]kjmont wrote:
I was saying calm down to people who were like getting aggressive toned.[/quote]

Goodness. Maybe some of you just need thicker skin.

How the hell do some of you expect to have the nuts to bench press 400+lbs if “aggressive toned” posts cause this much of a problem for you?[/quote]

Hell yeah![/quote]

Wait, you mean 600+ raw bench presses don’t get done by PLers with serene, calm looks on their faces? I thought PRs were a time of inner peace, solitude, and tranquility? WTF.

35

The reason why I became so hot-headed on here is because of people who want others to work–provide online training and nutrition counseling, scour hundreds of articles–for free! And even when VERY detailed information is provided, most of the annoying and thick-headed people only return to show that they completely dismissed and discarded all good, solid information given to them.

You’ll have a guy come come on here listing his program or diet. Others will provide pretty good feedback. Weeks and sometimes DAYS later, the same poster will come back with a new diet and/or training routine wanting new feedback, clearly showing that he didn’t give a shit about what anyone wrote in the first place!

I mean really, some people on here can drive others to drink - or get really fucking irritated!
[/quote]

Ok, i do see your point and agree, but there’s so much information that can occasionally conflict with other stuff that sometimes I need to ask people who are more experienced than me who have hopefully had similar situations with the topic and could shed some light on it with personal experiences to back it up. I’ll try to limit the number of guys I send to AA lol

36

I agree. The misunderstanding you had is:

  1. Propagated by any number of authors, though certainly not all (not CT for example) and

  2. Propagated by any number of lifters including who absolutely don’t do what they are saying, or if one wants to claim they are, they’re doing so only in a Newspeak sense where “failure” doesn’t involve any reps he failed to complete the lifts on, but only successful reps.

It isn’t just incredibly easy to be misled by this, it’s rather hard not to be, unless already being aware that this nonsense use of words goes on all the time and simply cannot be stamped out.

37

[quote]kjmont wrote:

Ok, i do see your point and agree, but there’s so much information that can occasionally conflict with other stuff that sometimes I need to ask people who are more experienced than me who have hopefully had similar situations with the topic and could shed some light on it with personal experiences to back it up. I’ll try to limit the number of guys I send to AA lol[/quote]

There’s nothing wrong with doing what you’ve explained, asking people about real-world advice and information. I was just addressing what has caused hot-headedness and frustration around here.

It’s not even a person’s fault for getting suckered by information from all sorts of media these days, including information on nutrition and exercise and even LIFE. I’ve been suckered and fooled before. Now I’ve grown up and learned–this is cynical to say–that most people and information are FULL OF SHIT! Keep that in mind.

I’m grateful for all the nutrition and exercise information out there. I’m a dietitian and grateful for my own education on the topics. However, I really think there was a time when men just simply ate enough decent food, put on their sneakers, a t-shirt, and sweats and just hit the damn gym and did what all the successful guys were doing with variations depending on their needs. AND THAT WAS IT!

Same goes for the goddamn over-thinking that has been promoted and caused by the hucksters in the media, most notably all the self-help gurus out there now. I highly doubt that 50 or more years ago, people were analyzing every goddamn facet of life:

Do I have three months of living expenses saved? I know I can’t buy this 69-cent cup of coffee if I don’t. Suze Orman said so.
Do I have my dream man? I’m a Yankee fan and he’s a Mets fan. He’s also not funny enough.
My creative juices aren’t flowing right now. Is this really my “dream job”. I think I’ll have a latte and play pinball at the company rec room.
Am I dysfunctional or functional?
I think that comment my mom gave me when I was three fucked up my whole self-image forever. That’s god to be it.
I “deserve” better than this. In fact, I’m “entitled” to it.
I can be anything I want to be. And so can you!
I’m not settling.

NO! People got up in the morning, fried an egg, got their boots or shoes on and went to fuckin’ work! No complaining - no over-thinking!

Same goes for training! Read some articles, ask for SOME help and advice, put a pair of kicks on, and get into a goddamn gym!

38

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I agree. The misunderstanding you had is:

  1. Propagated by any number of authors, though certainly not all (not CT for example) and

  2. Propagated by any number of lifters including who absolutely don’t do what they are saying, or if one wants to claim they are doing they, they’re doing so only in a Newspeak sense where “failure” doesn’t involve any reps he failed to complete the lifts on, but only successful reps.

It isn’t just incredibly easy to be misled by this, it’s rather hard not to be, unless already being aware that this nonsense use of words goes on all the time and simply cannot be stamped out.[/quote]

Exactly, Bill. And I’m very fond of you addressing this whole “intensity-failure-badass” MYTHOLOGY going on.

All of the “low-volume” guys–Dorian Yates, Trevor Smith, Mike Mentzer, Arthur Jones, all of them!–had a way with words regarding this subject. All of the HIT and low-volume squad speak (or spoke) about how insane their training intensity is and that no human being can train with more than one working set employing it when the fact is that all of these people sure do/did a great deal of “working warm-up” sets that DO have effects on strength and size and it’s the way MOST of the successful strength trainees train! Most or no advanced guys use straight sets, making this “one-set” phenomenon a matter of semantics and word-weaving!

Look at Yates’ training video or his books. He employed about 2 or 3 warmup sets and 2 or 3 “working warmup” sets for each first exercise of a workout, and 1 to 3 working warmup sets for subsequent exercises. That DOES provide a significant amount of volume to a workout.

39

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
It’s not even a person’s fault for getting suckered by information from all sorts of media these days, including information on nutrition and exercise and even LIFE. I’ve been suckered and fooled before. Now I’ve grown up and learned–this is cynical to say–that most people and information are FULL OF SHIT! Keep that in mind.

I’m grateful for all the nutrition and exercise information out there. I’m a dietitian and grateful for my own education on the topics. However, I really think there was a time when men just simply ate enough decent food, put on their sneakers, a t-shirt, and sweats and just hit the damn gym and did what all the successful guys were doing with variations depending on their needs. AND THAT WAS IT!

…

NO! People got up in the morning, fried an egg, got their boots or shoes on and went to fuckin’ work! No complaining - no over-thinking!

Same goes for training! Read some articles, ask for SOME help and advice, put a pair of kicks on, and get into a goddamn gym![/quote]
A part of the problem is that BB’ing is something that is far more suited to internship-type learning, so to speak, rather than reading-learning.

For example, if I understand Professor X’s posts correctly, he didn’t find out from books how to train. There were some big guys in his gym and he learned to train how they did.

I am sure he supplemented this also with knowledge acquired from reading, but the backbone and gold standard was what was working in the gyms for the guys who had gotten big and were getting bigger.

These days, going into the typical gym and seeing what the various yahoos are doing isn’t going to do much good in most cases.

So I can readily understand seeking the written word to fill the gap.

Problem is, as Bricknyce says, most of it is full of shit. And some of it does have validity if you know how to filter through the shit, but you have to know where the shit is in the first place to be able to filter through it, so that doesn’t help much when starting out.

I will say however that CT’s writings are very clear and I don’t think are going to lead anyone astray. It also seems to me that each of the successful powerlifters that writes on the subject gives out good information that is clear, and while some regards of it are not optimized for bb’ing there are valid things to learn from what they have to say. Just employ some judgment and ask “Are successful bb’ers also doing this?” and if the answer is no and your goal is bb’ing, then you don’t need to do that.

40

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

All of the “low-volume” guys–Dorian Yates, Trevor Smith, Mike Mentzer, Arthur Jones, all of them!–had a way with words regarding this subject. All of the HIT and low-volume squad speak (or spoke) about how insane their training intensity is and that no human being can train with more than one working set employing it when the fact is that all of these people sure do/did a great deal of “working warm-up” sets that DO have effects on strength and size and it’s the way MOST of the successful strength trainees train! Most or no advanced guys use straight sets, making this “one-set” phenomenon a matter of semantics and word-weaving!

Look at Yates’ training video or his books. He employed about 2 or 3 warmup sets and 2 or 3 “working warmup” sets for each first exercise of a workout, and 1 to 3 working warmup sets for subsequent exercises. That DOES provide a significant amount of volume to a workout. [/quote]

Yup, and a lot of the guys in Mentzer’s day observed that Mike did as many sets as them, merely calling them ‘warmups’, supposedly short of ‘failure’.