Rounding Lower Back With Squats

Training Bodybuilding
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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
chriscarani wrote:
This has nothing to do with a “saggital plane”. This is a technical term used to divide the body into left and right, mid-saggital would describe a point in the center of the body, creating two equal left and right sides. More appropriate terms for this purpose would be anterior/posterior flexion/extension.

Whilst I’m here and have nothing else to do, I want to discuss this point further. You see I believe it has everything to do with a sagittal plane, or more specifically, movement in a sagittal plane.

Yes the mid-sagittal plane does split the body down the center and that is what is used in both medicine, anatomy, kinesiology and biomechanics to determine the planes of movement.

Anterior, posterior, flexion and extension are only anatomical terms that relate to position, not movement.

You can only move anteriorly (for example) in relation to another structure in the body. For example “the sternum is anterior to the heart”. You cannot move the body through space ‘anteriorly’, but only in a sagittal plane (or transverse or coronal plane).

So lets say you choose to flex the spine to tilt the pelvis? Well you can do that in a sagittal plane or in a coronal plane.

Sure you could say “I flex the spine forwards or to the side”, however that wouldn’t be scientifically accurate.

The psoas group attaches to the femur and lumbar spine, flexing the hip and spine. The rectus femoris attaches to the leg (which is anatomically considered the tibia ans fibula) via pattellar tendon and the pelvis (AIIS). The hamstring group attaches to the leg and pelvis, and extends the hip and flexes the leg.

Or to be scientifically accurate, there is no ‘psoas group’. There is an ‘iliopsoas’, a psoas and an iliacus. The psoas and iliacus are commonly lumped together under the title ‘iliopsoas’. However the iliacus does not attach to the lumbar spine, but sits in the iliac fossa.

Also, the hamstring muscles do not flex the leg, but flexes the knee. One is a bone and the other is a joint.

When you squat down, you start bending the knee, which starts creating tension in the RF. This will pull the pelvis forward.

Only if the RF is tight though, because the ‘parallelogram’ action of the insertion of the RF onto the ASIS allows the origin and insertion of the RF to remain relatively equidistant.

If this has not clicked for you, spend some time with your AP book and really think about it before responding. I have a ton to learn about the body, but trust me on this one.

I also have a huge amount to learn about a whole heap of things, but I am about to finish the academic portion of a masters degree in chiropractic, so what do I know :wink:

Bushy[/quote]

Good points on the planes and joint!!! I digress!!!

However the psoas is a group divided into minor and major. The minor does not attach to the femur, which is why I made the distinction.

The RF point is exactly what I was saying. “If it is tight” was my point.

No disrespect to you at all ; )

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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
chriscarani wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to respond. This might be my last post for a time. The flu is fading away and I am slowly returning to the real world, and out of my bed, lol.

I see what you are saying, but again this is an incorrect assumption. There is no tension in the hamstrings at this position, whatsoever. The hip extensor tension is coming from the hips (like I mentioned in my first post). Glute max, med, and there IT band attachments. Then the rotatores, (again like I mentioned) piri GS GI etc. At this position those muscles are tight and pulling the pelvis posteriorly. The hamstrings are completely relaxed, they cannot be pulling on anything. What is contributing to this posture is the spine and hip flexors, even up into the pecs and intercostals, abdominals etc. The hamstrings have nothing to do with it.

During hip flexion AND knee flexion hip extensors EXCEPT the hamstrings are in tension rotating the pelvis posteriorly. Again because the femur is moving down and back, the spine must also follow. Do you see it now?

Sorry dude, but unless I’ve been asleep for the last 3 years, what you are saying is totally whack.

No tension in the hams? Really? The hams are in fact relaxed, wow, so then they do not contribute to a squat at all then surely. That is not true. Weak hams will negatively affect your squatting potential as the torso will try to fall forwards.

I have some of the most tight and fibrous piris, glute meds and mins my clinician has ever seen, yet I squat perfectly. How do you explain this please?

You also say:
“What is contributing to this posture is the spine and hip flexors”.

The spine flexor idea I can just about see your reasoning for (though you are completely wrong IMO), but the HIP FLEXORS??? WTF? they are antagonist to the spine flexors fer gawd sake.

I fee like I have been whacked with the silly stick here.

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt for now, speak to a few professors of biomechanicas and see what they have to say.

I hope you feel better soon. I also hope you are indeed insane though, otherwise I’m gonna need a serious re-education, lol!

Bushy[/quote]

No need to resort to Ad hominem attacks here. I don’t think you need a reeducation I just think you are a little confused on some things.

Ok really now, last post, I’ll try to make it as simple as possible. Read carefully.

I said, in that position, the hams are completely relaxed. Sure the hams are involved in the squat to some degree. They however do not get directly targeted unless the knee is flexed or the spine is extended, for example, during leg curls and deadlifts, etc. I don’t know anyone who has gotten big hams from squatting. A big butt and quads, yes.

Next, I don’t know that you squat perfectly and I have not assessed you. So I would not be at liberty to say, if what you say is true. Everyone is different. This guys problems may just lie with his ankles, or just his hips etc. We don’t know. Which is why I recommended the comprehensive book to address the body in total, not just one muscle group.

An antagonist is an opposer. Some hip flexors are synergist to spine flexors, if fact some do both!!! Case in point the psoas. This muscle group both flexes the spine and flexes the hip. Hip extensors are antagonist to hip flexors. Hamstrings to quads, erector to psoas. On we clear on that. So yes it appears you have been whacked by something, and it wasn’t logic.

No need to give me anything here. What I am right on I am right on. What I was inaccurate about I stood corrected. We all make mistakes, it’s ok to admit them.

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[quote]kinein wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
kinein wrote:

The verdict is in! I stand corrected.[/quote]

Is that a train conductor hat?

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Hey man.

I wasn’t trying to be condescending, I met that with sincerity. Often times people, including myself, will glance over a post and then respond. Sometimes I start to respond, then I read read it over and then over again, I will realize I didn’t need to respond in the first place and the post actually made sense. I felt like this was the case when you were reading my post. So my apologies if I came across that way. You sound like a smart guy, but again just confused like I was on the plane and knee movement. We both know are stuff, but we don’t know everything all the time. Sometimes things are fresh and others we forget.

I did feel the statements were AH, but I misread your humor I guess, it happens frequently on a forum.

About the Psoas. Yes there is some debate on the issue, as with anything dealing with the human body. However I would encourage you to read some of Dr. Janda’s work if you have not already. He invented something called the Janda sit-up in which you contract the hamstrings while performing a sit up. This takes the psoas out of the movement (RI), and requires the abdominals to perform the work. If you have ever done this your realize what a powerful spine flexor the psoas really is. More recent electromyography studies on this muscle that I have reviewed supports this.

Anyway, no hard feelings on this side of the computer. Good luck with school, see you around!