Roots of Human Morality

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
341

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Ironic, as Hitler believed he was following the will of the Christian God. [/quote]

Incorrect.[/quote]

In in his book.[/quote]

Wouldn’t it be more accurate that he was using religion to appeal to the relgious? Yes, that would be correct. I don’t know how many times we have to go over the Hitler is not religious thing. Even if Hitler were for the sake of argument religious, he still would have been an amateur compared to his rival Stalin who was a staunch atheist and murdered entire towns of his own people.
Why don’t you guys create a “Hitler was a devout Christian” Tread. This one is quite busy enough with out having to suffer fools.

342

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Well, Hitler sure believed he was a Christian…

[/quote]

Don’t ever get to wonderin’ why folks don’t take you seriously 'round here.
[/quote]

That’s fine. Your seriousness on the topic seems to blind you anyway. However, I’m convinced that you take me more seriously than anyone else here. [/quote]

That’s saying the rest of the folks really, really, really must heavily discount you.[/quote]

No, I’m saying you spend more time debating with me than anyone else here. You seem to put a lot of effort into looking like you’re not putting forth any effort as well.

343

Here’s my problem. You’re assuming a few starting preferences/opinions/value judgments as absolutes. From there, having determined those first things for everyone, you call everything else that follows ‘moral absolutes.’ Well, if your first things aren’t absolutes, but instead your preferences, nothing else that follows is a moral absolute.

344

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
For the moral relativists out there choke on this:

Now to be a moral relativist, you have to spin a scenario where what is happening to these people is not morally wrong.[/quote]

You can believe in a secular moral system and not be a moral relativist.

[/quote]

Then I am not talking to you. There are moral relativists on this board. Secular morality is an interesting topic. What’s it’s basis?

346

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Ironic, as Hitler believed he was following the will of the Christian God. [/quote]

Incorrect.[/quote]

In in his book.[/quote]

Wouldn’t it be more accurate that he was using religion to appeal to the relgious? Yes, that would be correct. I don’t know how many times we have to go over the Hitler is not religious thing. Even if Hitler were for the sake of argument religious, he still would have been an amateur compared to his rival Stalin who was a staunch atheist and murdered entire towns of his own people.
Why don’t you guys create a “Hitler was a devout Christian” Tread. This one is quite busy enough with out having to suffer fools.[/quote]

Are you suggesting atheism (or at least non-Christian morality) is bad because Stalin was bad?

347

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Ironic, as Hitler believed he was following the will of the Christian God. [/quote]

Incorrect.[/quote]

In in his book.[/quote]

Wouldn’t it be more accurate that he was using religion to appeal to the relgious? Yes, that would be correct. I don’t know how many times we have to go over the Hitler is not religious thing. Even if Hitler were for the sake of argument religious, he still would have been an amateur compared to his rival Stalin who was a staunch atheist and murdered entire towns of his own people.
Why don’t you guys create a “Hitler was a devout Christian” Tread. This one is quite busy enough with out having to suffer fools.[/quote]

Are you suggesting atheism (or at least non-Christian morality) is bad because Stalin was bad?[/quote]

Isn’t that what was being tacitly implied by saying Hitler was a Christian? My only contention is that, if you want to go there, comparing evils, you will lose. It comes up every time in these type threads. I usually feel I have to mitigate the point.

348

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Ironic, as Hitler believed he was following the will of the Christian God. [/quote]

Incorrect.[/quote]

In in his book.[/quote]

Wouldn’t it be more accurate that he was using religion to appeal to the relgious? Yes, that would be correct. I don’t know how many times we have to go over the Hitler is not religious thing. Even if Hitler were for the sake of argument religious, he still would have been an amateur compared to his rival Stalin who was a staunch atheist and murdered entire towns of his own people.
Why don’t you guys create a “Hitler was a devout Christian” Tread. This one is quite busy enough with out having to suffer fools.[/quote]

Are you suggesting atheism (or at least non-Christian morality) is bad because Stalin was bad?[/quote]

Isn’t that what was being tacitly implied by saying Hitler was a Christian? My only contention is that, if you want to go there, comparing evils, you will lose. It comes up every time in these type threads. I usually feel I have to mitigate the point.[/quote]

No. Push tried to compare moral nihilism to the holocaust. I countered by saying this is an ironic argument for him to make because Hitler claimed to be a Christian and therefore the holocaust would’ve been a result of Christian morality. Whether or not Hitler was actually a Christian in private is irrelevant because either way he used Christianity as a tool to get millions of people on his side.

My point is, if you are a logical and compassionate person, then no rigid moral code is needed. It’s only needed if you are otherwise a cruel person and such people can and will get around such rigid moral codes by twisting it until it justifies what they want to do.

But just for the sake of argument, let’s say God decided it was time for the more heavy-handed approach he used back in the OT. Let’s say he commanded someone to murder 1 BILLION people. Would you support this?

349

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Ironic, as Hitler believed he was following the will of the Christian God. [/quote]

Incorrect.[/quote]

In in his book.[/quote]

Wouldn’t it be more accurate that he was using religion to appeal to the relgious? Yes, that would be correct. I don’t know how many times we have to go over the Hitler is not religious thing. Even if Hitler were for the sake of argument religious, he still would have been an amateur compared to his rival Stalin who was a staunch atheist and murdered entire towns of his own people.
Why don’t you guys create a “Hitler was a devout Christian” Tread. This one is quite busy enough with out having to suffer fools.[/quote]

Are you suggesting atheism (or at least non-Christian morality) is bad because Stalin was bad?[/quote]

Isn’t that what was being tacitly implied by saying Hitler was a Christian? My only contention is that, if you want to go there, comparing evils, you will lose. It comes up every time in these type threads. I usually feel I have to mitigate the point.[/quote]

No. Push tried to compare moral nihilism to the holocaust. I countered by saying this is an ironic argument for him to make because Hitler claimed to be a Christian and therefore the holocaust would’ve been a result of Christian morality. Whether or not Hitler was actually a Christian in private is irrelevant because either way he used Christianity as a tool to get millions of people on his side.

My point is, if you are a logical and compassionate person, then no rigid moral code is needed. It’s only needed if you are otherwise a cruel person and such people can and will get around such rigid moral codes by twisting it until it justifies what they want to do.

But just for the sake of argument, let’s say God decided it was time for the more heavy-handed approach he used back in the OT. Let’s say he commanded someone to murder 1 BILLION people. Would you support this? [/quote]

Compassion and cruelty have no meaning if there is no static moral code. Further, it’s not even that rigid.

Have you read the Bible? Do you know the OT? I am betting not. Only what some whack-a-doodle posted on some atheist website.

But for shits I’ll play even though your hypothetical sounds bizarre at best. I hear all the time about why does God allow people to get hurt by others or why he lets these evil, mean people do what they do, but then when it does come a time to deliver the justice, you get all bent out of shape too. You want God to fix it but not do anything about it all at the same time. Or you just want him to do what you think he should.
God ain’t gonna kill 1 billion people unless 1 billion people need killin’. You lot allow the killing of 1.2 million people a year and don’t give a damn about it. So spare me the artificial outrage at a off the wall hypothetical.

350

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Ironic, as Hitler believed he was following the will of the Christian God. [/quote]

Incorrect.[/quote]

In in his book.[/quote]

Wouldn’t it be more accurate that he was using religion to appeal to the relgious? Yes, that would be correct. I don’t know how many times we have to go over the Hitler is not religious thing. Even if Hitler were for the sake of argument religious, he still would have been an amateur compared to his rival Stalin who was a staunch atheist and murdered entire towns of his own people.
Why don’t you guys create a “Hitler was a devout Christian” Tread. This one is quite busy enough with out having to suffer fools.[/quote]

Are you suggesting atheism (or at least non-Christian morality) is bad because Stalin was bad?[/quote]

Isn’t that what was being tacitly implied by saying Hitler was a Christian? My only contention is that, if you want to go there, comparing evils, you will lose. It comes up every time in these type threads. I usually feel I have to mitigate the point.[/quote]

No. Push tried to compare moral nihilism to the holocaust. I countered by saying this is an ironic argument for him to make because Hitler claimed to be a Christian and therefore the holocaust would’ve been a result of Christian morality. Whether or not Hitler was actually a Christian in private is irrelevant because either way he used Christianity as a tool to get millions of people on his side.

My point is, if you are a logical and compassionate person, then no rigid moral code is needed. It’s only needed if you are otherwise a cruel person and such people can and will get around such rigid moral codes by twisting it until it justifies what they want to do.

But just for the sake of argument, let’s say God decided it was time for the more heavy-handed approach he used back in the OT. Let’s say he commanded someone to murder 1 BILLION people. Would you support this? [/quote]

Compassion and cruelty have no meaning if there is no static moral code. Further, it’s not even that rigid.

Have you read the Bible? Do you know the OT? I am betting not. Only what some whack-a-doodle posted on some atheist website.

But for shits I’ll play even though your hypothetical sounds bizarre at best. I hear all the time about why does God allow people to get hurt by others or why he lets these evil, mean people do what they do, but then when it does come a time to deliver the justice, you get all bent out of shape too. You want God to fix it but not do anything about it all at the same time. Or you just want him to do what you think he should.
God ain’t gonna kill 1 billion people unless 1 billion people need killin’. You lot allow the killing of 1.2 million people a year and don’t give a damn about it. So spare me the artificial outrage at a off the wall hypothetical.[/quote]

I don’t think you’ve been following my posts in this thread since the beginning. We’re not as “at-odds” as you think we are on this.

All right, so we’ve established that you are okay with God commanding the death of 1 billion people, so long as those people deserve to be murdered in the eyes of God. That’s fine, I’m not judging you on that. But, let’s go a step further; What if God commanded you to personally kill these 1 billion people?

351

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Ironic, as Hitler believed he was following the will of the Christian God. [/quote]

Incorrect.[/quote]

In in his book.[/quote]

Wouldn’t it be more accurate that he was using religion to appeal to the relgious? Yes, that would be correct. I don’t know how many times we have to go over the Hitler is not religious thing. Even if Hitler were for the sake of argument religious, he still would have been an amateur compared to his rival Stalin who was a staunch atheist and murdered entire towns of his own people.
Why don’t you guys create a “Hitler was a devout Christian” Tread. This one is quite busy enough with out having to suffer fools.[/quote]

Are you suggesting atheism (or at least non-Christian morality) is bad because Stalin was bad?[/quote]

Isn’t that what was being tacitly implied by saying Hitler was a Christian? My only contention is that, if you want to go there, comparing evils, you will lose. It comes up every time in these type threads. I usually feel I have to mitigate the point.[/quote]

No. Push tried to compare moral nihilism to the holocaust. I countered by saying this is an ironic argument for him to make because Hitler claimed to be a Christian and therefore the holocaust would’ve been a result of Christian morality. Whether or not Hitler was actually a Christian in private is irrelevant because either way he used Christianity as a tool to get millions of people on his side.

My point is, if you are a logical and compassionate person, then no rigid moral code is needed. It’s only needed if you are otherwise a cruel person and such people can and will get around such rigid moral codes by twisting it until it justifies what they want to do.

But just for the sake of argument, let’s say God decided it was time for the more heavy-handed approach he used back in the OT. Let’s say he commanded someone to murder 1 BILLION people. Would you support this? [/quote]

Compassion and cruelty have no meaning if there is no static moral code. Further, it’s not even that rigid.

Have you read the Bible? Do you know the OT? I am betting not. Only what some whack-a-doodle posted on some atheist website.

But for shits I’ll play even though your hypothetical sounds bizarre at best. I hear all the time about why does God allow people to get hurt by others or why he lets these evil, mean people do what they do, but then when it does come a time to deliver the justice, you get all bent out of shape too. You want God to fix it but not do anything about it all at the same time. Or you just want him to do what you think he should.
God ain’t gonna kill 1 billion people unless 1 billion people need killin’. You lot allow the killing of 1.2 million people a year and don’t give a damn about it. So spare me the artificial outrage at a off the wall hypothetical.[/quote]

I don’t think you’ve been following my posts in this thread since the beginning. We’re not as “at-odds” as you think we are on this.

All right, so we’ve established that you are okay with God commanding the death of 1 billion people, so long as those people deserve to be murdered in the eyes of God. That’s fine, I’m not judging you on that. But, let’s go a step further; What if God commanded you to personally kill these 1 billion people? [/quote]

I didn’t actually render an opinion on it. I just said that if God were to do something like that, there would be a damn good reason, it would not be just willy-nilly and random. Second, death is not the end it life, it’s the end of the body. Third, I am not indulging the scenario any longer because it’s ridiculous. This whole, “what if God told you to do something evil, would you do it?” is pretty stupid. God isn’t asking us to do evil, he asks us to do good. When that status changes I’ll let you know. He asks us to love one another, take care of our families, care for the down trodden, lend a helping hand, do good with out expectation, etc. He is not asking us to murder, ass-fuck babies, kill and boil puppies, or what ever hair brained scenarios one can dream up.

I know where you are getting this but when you read the Bible and understand it as a whole, then we can talk about some of the more ‘interesting’ parts.

352

[quote]pat wrote:

I didn’t actually render an opinion on it. I just said that if God were to do something like that, there would be a damn good reason, it would not be just willy-nilly and random. Second, death is not the end it life, it’s the end of the body. Third, I am not indulging the scenario any longer because it’s ridiculous. This whole, “what if God told you to do something evil, would you do it?” is pretty stupid. God isn’t asking us to do evil, he asks us to do good. When that status changes I’ll let you know. He asks us to love one another, take care of our families, care for the down trodden, lend a helping hand, do good with out expectation, etc. He is not asking us to murder, ass-fuck babies, kill and boil puppies, or what ever hair brained scenarios one can dream up.

I know where you are getting this but when you read the Bible and understand it as a whole, then we can talk about some of the more ‘interesting’ parts.[/quote]

Do you believe god does things that our puny human minds can’t always comprehend the purpose for?

353

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I didn’t actually render an opinion on it. I just said that if God were to do something like that, there would be a damn good reason, it would not be just willy-nilly and random. Second, death is not the end it life, it’s the end of the body. Third, I am not indulging the scenario any longer because it’s ridiculous. This whole, “what if God told you to do something evil, would you do it?” is pretty stupid. God isn’t asking us to do evil, he asks us to do good. When that status changes I’ll let you know. He asks us to love one another, take care of our families, care for the down trodden, lend a helping hand, do good with out expectation, etc. He is not asking us to murder, ass-fuck babies, kill and boil puppies, or what ever hair brained scenarios one can dream up.

I know where you are getting this but when you read the Bible and understand it as a whole, then we can talk about some of the more ‘interesting’ parts.[/quote]

Do you believe god does things that our puny human minds can’t always comprehend the purpose for?

[/quote]

Do you realize how little we know? Or even think we know? There is so much more to know that what your senses can tell you.

354

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I didn’t actually render an opinion on it. I just said that if God were to do something like that, there would be a damn good reason, it would not be just willy-nilly and random. Second, death is not the end it life, it’s the end of the body. Third, I am not indulging the scenario any longer because it’s ridiculous. This whole, “what if God told you to do something evil, would you do it?” is pretty stupid. God isn’t asking us to do evil, he asks us to do good. When that status changes I’ll let you know. He asks us to love one another, take care of our families, care for the down trodden, lend a helping hand, do good with out expectation, etc. He is not asking us to murder, ass-fuck babies, kill and boil puppies, or what ever hair brained scenarios one can dream up.

I know where you are getting this but when you read the Bible and understand it as a whole, then we can talk about some of the more ‘interesting’ parts.[/quote]

Do you believe god does things that our puny human minds can’t always comprehend the purpose for?

[/quote]

Do you realize how little we know? Or even think we know? There is so much more to know that what your senses can tell you.[/quote]

…

Is that a yes?

355

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I didn’t actually render an opinion on it. I just said that if God were to do something like that, there would be a damn good reason, it would not be just willy-nilly and random. Second, death is not the end it life, it’s the end of the body. Third, I am not indulging the scenario any longer because it’s ridiculous. This whole, “what if God told you to do something evil, would you do it?” is pretty stupid. God isn’t asking us to do evil, he asks us to do good. When that status changes I’ll let you know. He asks us to love one another, take care of our families, care for the down trodden, lend a helping hand, do good with out expectation, etc. He is not asking us to murder, ass-fuck babies, kill and boil puppies, or what ever hair brained scenarios one can dream up.

I know where you are getting this but when you read the Bible and understand it as a whole, then we can talk about some of the more ‘interesting’ parts.[/quote]

Do you believe god does things that our puny human minds can’t always comprehend the purpose for?

[/quote]

Do you realize how little we know? Or even think we know? There is so much more to know that what your senses can tell you.[/quote]

…

Is that a yes?
[/quote]

How is it not obvious? What do think all these scientists and such are trying to figure out? It’s a dumb question, of course God does things we don’t know and haven’t figured out, duh. If he didn’t we’d know everything.

356

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I didn’t actually render an opinion on it. I just said that if God were to do something like that, there would be a damn good reason, it would not be just willy-nilly and random. Second, death is not the end it life, it’s the end of the body. Third, I am not indulging the scenario any longer because it’s ridiculous. This whole, “what if God told you to do something evil, would you do it?” is pretty stupid. God isn’t asking us to do evil, he asks us to do good. When that status changes I’ll let you know. He asks us to love one another, take care of our families, care for the down trodden, lend a helping hand, do good with out expectation, etc. He is not asking us to murder, ass-fuck babies, kill and boil puppies, or what ever hair brained scenarios one can dream up.

I know where you are getting this but when you read the Bible and understand it as a whole, then we can talk about some of the more ‘interesting’ parts.[/quote]

Do you believe god does things that our puny human minds can’t always comprehend the purpose for?

[/quote]

Do you realize how little we know? Or even think we know? There is so much more to know that what your senses can tell you.[/quote]

…

Is that a yes?
[/quote]

How is it not obvious? What do think all these scientists and such are trying to figure out? It’s a dumb question, of course God does things we don’t know and haven’t figured out, duh. If he didn’t we’d know everything.[/quote]

So if you think god is only interested in doing good and you think he commands things that our puny minds couldn’t comprehend, you will kill people (you yourself deem innocent) if he came down tomorrow you and asked you to?

357

[quote]therajraj wrote:

So if you think god is only interested in doing good and you think he commands things that our puny minds couldn’t comprehend, you will kill people (you yourself deem innocent) if he came down tomorrow you and asked you to?

[/quote]

No, because we have a theology that would identify such a thing as the beast, the anti-christ, etc. You might as well have asked if ‘good’ is killing innocent people, would you be good. Hypothetical are useful, but they also can be eye-rollingly stupid. We await the return, but it aint nothing like that.

358

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I didn’t actually render an opinion on it. I just said that if God were to do something like that, there would be a damn good reason, it would not be just willy-nilly and random. Second, death is not the end it life, it’s the end of the body. Third, I am not indulging the scenario any longer because it’s ridiculous. This whole, “what if God told you to do something evil, would you do it?” is pretty stupid. God isn’t asking us to do evil, he asks us to do good. When that status changes I’ll let you know. He asks us to love one another, take care of our families, care for the down trodden, lend a helping hand, do good with out expectation, etc. He is not asking us to murder, ass-fuck babies, kill and boil puppies, or what ever hair brained scenarios one can dream up.

I know where you are getting this but when you read the Bible and understand it as a whole, then we can talk about some of the more ‘interesting’ parts.[/quote]

Do you believe god does things that our puny human minds can’t always comprehend the purpose for?

[/quote]

Do you realize how little we know? Or even think we know? There is so much more to know that what your senses can tell you.[/quote]

…

Is that a yes?
[/quote]

How is it not obvious? What do think all these scientists and such are trying to figure out? It’s a dumb question, of course God does things we don’t know and haven’t figured out, duh. If he didn’t we’d know everything.[/quote]

So if you think god is only interested in doing good and you think he commands things that our puny minds couldn’t comprehend, you will kill people (you yourself deem innocent) if he came down tomorrow you and asked you to?

[/quote]

I already spoke to the astoundingly stupid trend of this idiotic line of questioning ^^ up there. I am stopping it. It’s a dumb question completely devoid of reality and reason. Like I said ^^ up there, God calls us to do good not evil. When that status changes I will let you know.

359

Well I think we are making progress now. We finally agree that humans are the ones who decide good and evil otherwise they would be unable to determine the christ from the anti-christ.

360

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Well I think we are making progress now. We finally agree that humans are the ones who decide good and evil otherwise they would be unable to determine the christ from the anti-christ.[/quote]

Well no, we identify what is good. We don’t make it the good.