RIP Robin Williams

Off Topic
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[quote]csulli wrote:

You calling someone who succumbs to suicide as a result of depression weaker and more selfish than someone who doesn’t is more or less tantamount to calling someone who dies of a heart attack weaker and more selfish than someone who survives a heart attack.[/quote]

This. If one has not seen depression and suicide up close, and I mean up very close, then I understand why one could have a difficult time understanding this. What I don’t understand is why one would then convert their misunderstanding into a foolish and malicious opinion and lob it into the public discourse.

And if you HAVE seen clinical depression lead to suicide, up close, and you still think it an act of selfish cowardice, then you should examine your capacity for basic human sympathy. And you observational skills.

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By the way Beans, I cannot find your email. I’ll get in touch tomorrow if you’d like to exchange an email or two with me.

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[quote]smh_23 wrote:

There is a fundamental difference between the avoidance of suicide’s glorification and the calling of a suicide a selfish coward.[/quote]

Later in the same blog Ace explains how he has had 48 hours to think it over, and two hour to write and edit his post, so his words are clear. Someone standing on a stage, doing hard news commentary for 6 hours or whatever, doesn’t have that luxury.

But that doesn’t address the people that actually think about and still say it you say? They didn’t have nuance?

Well, not only are you ignoring everyone else effected by the person’s actions but:

[quote]Also–and this seems not to matter to a troubling number of intelligent people–suicide brought on by clinical depression, which has absolutely not been ruled out in the present case, is not compatible with juvenile and prickish value judgements like “selfish coward.” Think about what human organ gives rise to an act of cowardice, and then think about what clinical depression does, by its very definition, to that same human organ.

Edited[/quote]

You ever play Marco Polo in a lake or pool growing up?
What happens when you play Marco Polo? More specific to my point, what happens if you play Marco Polo by yourself?

Well, you can’t see clearly, you’re clinching your eyes shut. Small fractions of light sneak in, but for the most part, the visual world is gone. Your mind may fill in the blanks.

You can shout Marco over and over, but no one is there to answer. The audio world is gone. Your brain my hallucinate whispers, but you know no one is there.

You can’t really feel anything but the water. Your touch is muted by over stimulation. The physical world is gone outside of your immediate surroundings. You mind knows, somewhere in there, where the boundaries are, but you can’t know where you are in relation.

So you’re all alone… Lost, can’t see, can’t hear, have no one calling back, and no where to turn but to yourself, and we’ve already established your mind is playing tricks on you…

You ever stood outside in January and had a gust of wind so cold it takes the breath out of your lungs? Lets say one of those hits you in the face, and suddenly, that panic, that hopelessness sets in.

What are you going to need? You’re now trapped, your emotions the gate and lock, your perspective the key, but a force has stopped the key from working. What are you going to need?

You’re going to need something to break through to give you reason. If that something just twists the key further (your implication of the effect of prickish remarks) it isn’t any different than the things that locked you up. But what if… and even if it is primal anger and hatred for someone so callous as to DARE not PC around the subject… what if that thing that breaks through gives you the long instant you need to open your eyes, catch your breath, reestablish a perspective outside your gates, and swim ashore?

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[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

You calling someone who succumbs to suicide as a result of depression weaker and more selfish than someone who doesn’t is more or less tantamount to calling someone who dies of a heart attack weaker and more selfish than someone who survives a heart attack.[/quote]

This. If one has not seen depression and suicide up close, and I mean up very close, then I understand why one could have a difficult time understanding this. What I don’t understand is why one would then convert their misunderstanding into a foolish and malicious opinion and lob it into the public discourse.

And if you HAVE seen clinical depression lead to suicide, up close, and you still think it an act of selfish cowardice, then you should examine your capacity for basic human sympathy. And your observational skills.[/quote]

Conversely maybe some people need to understand that perspective is individual

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[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
But then, this is also why i question the mentality of the depressed person when he makes the final choice. [/quote]

I don’t mean this as an attack, but you’ll never understand, not to the degree I suspect you want to.
[/quote]

I don’t see it as any form of attack. I do seek to understand, failing which, at least to be convinced of it’s severity so i can at least pay more attention to those close to me who may display symptoms and require treatment, if an inevitable outcome includes suicide.

Much like i don’t understand schizophrenia but i am convinced of the severity of the illness and that most of a schizophrenic’s actions are not of his own volition and there may be dire consequences if he were left untreated.

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[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

You calling someone who succumbs to suicide as a result of depression weaker and more selfish than someone who doesn’t is more or less tantamount to calling someone who dies of a heart attack weaker and more selfish than someone who survives a heart attack.[/quote]

This. If one has not seen depression and suicide up close, and I mean up very close, then I understand why one could have a difficult time understanding this. What I don’t understand is why one would then convert their misunderstanding into a foolish and malicious opinion and lob it into the public discourse.

And if you HAVE seen clinical depression lead to suicide, up close, and you still think it an act of selfish cowardice, then you should examine your capacity for basic human sympathy. And you observational skills.[/quote]

I was asking questions and seeking opinions. Perhaps you can be kind enough to answer them.

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[quote]countingbeans wrote:
And that is the point. Not that people have compassion for RW. That is fine. It’s that it seems because dude got paid to play pretend all his life he gets more than someone who sacrificed time and meals with his own kids to save some stranger kids life, simply because he could. [/quote]

From what I tell based on various media, those who lament his death the most tend to do so because they were greatly affected by his comedies or very presence on the screen.

In short-they felt a bond with him. He gave them something that they greatly enjoyed, and so they are heart-broken when they hear he committed suicide. It confuses and upsets them. It would be one thing if he just died of a heart attack or something, and something completely different if he died of suicide.

Now… Who would these people grieve for more? Some random person who spent his entire life helping homeless people who died on the same day Robin Williams died, or Robin Williams?

My paternal grandfather passed away due to Alzheimer’s about 5 years ago. I believe he was a great man. As far as I can tell, he is symbolic of the incredible Korean mentality that gave birth to the supposed “Miracle of the Han River” The man went to work at 6 AM and came home at 12 AM the next day. And he did it again, over and over; working at a steel foundry in I’ve been told were brutal conditions. He knew nothing of leisure time and worked solely so that his children can taste the promises of the future.

He also fought in the Korean War as an artillery-men. And he lost both his parents when he was an infant during the Imperial Japanese reign in Korea. He older sister raised him.

I am honestly shamed that I cannot even come close to living up to the standards I feel he lived under.

I still felt nothing for him when he died. I did feel incredible sadness for my dad because he just lost his dad, and because he landed in Korea an hour AFTER my grandfather died. He refused to go back sooner because his company needed him.

I felt nothing for him because I didn’t see him for most of my life. I felt a lot for my dad because I grew up with him. And because his own decisions directly resulted in him never getting to meet his own father again. I can’t even imagine to think of the guilt he feels; I do know that he gets tears just about every time my grandfather is even mentioned.

The point is- People emphasize and FEEL for those that they FEEL have done something to influence their lives.

Robin Williams may have been an actor, and we have no idea who he was in real-life, but people have certainly felt great pleasure at his comedies and dramas. This particularly seems to be the case for those of my generation, who grew up with comedies like Aladdin and Mrs. Doubtfire.

This gives person X a far greater emotional connection to Robin William than some person who may have done great things in his life, but have done nothing to influence person X.

That’s simply how it is. Whether it is a sad state of affairs or not I don’t know.

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[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

You calling someone who succumbs to suicide as a result of depression weaker and more selfish than someone who doesn’t is more or less tantamount to calling someone who dies of a heart attack weaker and more selfish than someone who survives a heart attack.[/quote]

This. If one has not seen depression and suicide up close, and I mean up very close, then I understand why one could have a difficult time understanding this. What I don’t understand is why one would then convert their misunderstanding into a foolish and malicious opinion and lob it into the public discourse.

And if you HAVE seen clinical depression lead to suicide, up close, and you still think it an act of selfish cowardice, then you should examine your capacity for basic human sympathy. And your observational skills.[/quote]

Conversely maybe some people need to understand that perspective is individual[/quote]

All perspective is individual. This doesn’t mean that all perspectives are equally reasonable and equally valuable. They are not. Read my earlier post about which organ is, by definition, responsible for cowardice and what, again by definition, clinical depression and mental illness do to the very same organ.

As for whether or not calling a clinically depressed or mentally ill suicide a selfish coward will help anybody in any way, there is no reason to believe it will, unless you are privy to evidence whereto I am not. Couple that with the far more important fact that it’s bullshit and people who actually study these things for a living will tell you so, and we’ve got a strong case on our hands. Note that none of this has anything whatsoever to do with what’s PC.

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[quote]countingbeans wrote:
What are you going to need? You’re now trapped, your emotions the gate and lock, your perspective the key, but a force has stopped the key from working. What are you going to need?

You’re going to need something to break through to give you reason. If that something just twists the key further (your implication of the effect of prickish remarks) it isn’t any different than the things that locked you up. But what if… and even if it is primal anger and hatred for someone so callous as to DARE not PC around the subject… what if that thing that breaks through gives you the long instant you need to open your eyes, catch your breath, reestablish a perspective outside your gates, and swim ashore?
[/quote]

Seriously?

So your solution to clinical depression is to piss them off until they break through?

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[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

You calling someone who succumbs to suicide as a result of depression weaker and more selfish than someone who doesn’t is more or less tantamount to calling someone who dies of a heart attack weaker and more selfish than someone who survives a heart attack.[/quote]

This. If one has not seen depression and suicide up close, and I mean up very close, then I understand why one could have a difficult time understanding this. What I don’t understand is why one would then convert their misunderstanding into a foolish and malicious opinion and lob it into the public discourse.

And if you HAVE seen clinical depression lead to suicide, up close, and you still think it an act of selfish cowardice, then you should examine your capacity for basic human sympathy. And you observational skills.[/quote]

I was asking questions and seeking opinions. Perhaps you can be kind enough to answer them.
[/quote]

I was not attacking you specifically. I quoted csulli and agreed because I do emphatically agree. I don’t know what your position is here and don’t intend for anything I wrote to be directed toward you.

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[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

You calling someone who succumbs to suicide as a result of depression weaker and more selfish than someone who doesn’t is more or less tantamount to calling someone who dies of a heart attack weaker and more selfish than someone who survives a heart attack.[/quote]

This. If one has not seen depression and suicide up close, and I mean up very close, then I understand why one could have a difficult time understanding this. What I don’t understand is why one would then convert their misunderstanding into a foolish and malicious opinion and lob it into the public discourse.

And if you HAVE seen clinical depression lead to suicide, up close, and you still think it an act of selfish cowardice, then you should examine your capacity for basic human sympathy. And you observational skills.[/quote]

I was asking questions and seeking opinions. Perhaps you can be kind enough to answer them.
[/quote]

I was not attacking you specifically. I quoted csulli and agreed because I do emphatically agree. I don’t know what your position is here and don’t intend for anything I wrote to be directed toward you.[/quote]

Oh ok. But i still seek your opinion. Unless it’s too sensitive of an issue to discuss.

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
I’m not so sure. I would think, with my limited ability to emphatize with a truly depressed person, that one who carries out the final act would be weaker in constitution or perhaps more selfish than one who chooses not to, given that both are making a conscious choice.
[/quote]

You calling someone who succumbs to suicide as a result of depression weaker and more selfish than someone who doesn’t is more or less tantamount to calling someone who dies of a heart attack weaker and more selfish than someone who survives a heart attack. They are simply two different outcomes of a medical condition, and it can only ever be one way or the other.[/quote]

My line of questioning was simply to understand this illness more in depth. The term “depressed” has been used loosely in various contexts, sometimes even describing someone having really bad day.

If depression as a clinical term is as you have described, then i apologise if what i wrote came across as insensitive. The only form of mental illness i have personally had interaction with is a person with schizophrenia (with symptoms of manic depression), and i fully agree with your heart attack analogy in his case.

But then, this is also why i question the mentality of the depressed person when he makes the final choice. How would you compare this to a schizophrenic WITH depression?[/quote]

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Clinical depression is essentially the term used to describe the most severe of depressions, and/or situations where people exhibit behavior associated with depression because of literal changes in their brain chemistry.

The basic idea is that the severest of depressions has nothing to do with what you’ve experienced, and more with the fact that your brain is seriously messed up in some fashion and incapable of acting “normally”.

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[quote]magick wrote:
Clinical depression is essentially the term used to describe the most severe of depressions, and/or situations where people exhibit behavior associated with depression because of literal changes in their brain chemistry.

The basic idea is that the severest of depressions has nothing to do with what you’ve experienced, and more with the fact that your brain is seriously messed up in some fashion and incapable of acting “normally”.[/quote]

So such a person would be mentally incapacitated in a sense during the commision of the act?

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[quote]dt79 wrote:
So such a person would be mentally incapacitated in a sense during the commision of the act?[/quote]

Possibly; I think that is what smh_23 is suggesting.

I honestly don’t know much about depression beyond that there is a clear difference between the kind of depression that moody teenagers claim to experience, the kind that mothers may experience shortly after giving birth, the kind that people may experience after losing a dearly loved spouse and/or loved one, the kind people may experience after a traumatic event, and the kind that people just randomly get out of the blue and stays with them for a long, long time.

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[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
So such a person would be mentally incapacitated in a sense during the commision of the act?[/quote]

Possibly; I think that is what smh_23 is suggesting.[/quote]

Understood. Thanks.

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Something popped into my head on my way home from work, so I logged to say it, and luckily it actually addresses this, but I will address other points tomorrow when I go back to work

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
there is no reason to believe it will, unless you are privy to evidence whereto I am not. Couple that with the far more important fact that it’s bullshit and people who actually study these things for a living will tell you so, [/quote]

You and Magic are misunderstanding my point, to varying degrees. This is largely due to my convoluted manner in which I’m posting. So please bear with me here.

Let’s look at Good Will Hunting.

What is it that gets Will through all his pain in life up until the point he comes to trust RW’s character? It certainly isn’t his intellect, Ben Aflec tells him so in the “you better not answer your door one morning or I’ll kill you” monologue. It’s his anger. People seriously under estimate the power of anger. Look at Will’s pranks, his sarcasm, the monologue about working for the government, how he treats his woman in times of stress, his general Fuck The World attitude. He is angry. Anger is a primal survival mechanism that has saved as many lives as it has taken.

Well, being Hollywood, the end of the movie is Will understanding love will save him, and he chases the girl. But don’t be confused. RW doesn’t teach him that a woman’s love with save him, he simply shows how a woman’s love can shape your choices,and a wonderful woman can lead to wonderful choices. In a very powerful scene RW shows Will that it is okay to love himself. “It’s not your fault”. So no, love isn’t saving him, in fact he teaches him to refocus his anger, teaches it to use it better.

And no, stop trying to read everything I write as literal and think “oh he thinks making depressed people angry saves them.” That isn’t what I think, nor is it what I’m saying.

What I’m saying is people in this situation need help. But they won’t seek help, nor will any help be effective without reason. Some times the smallest acorns grow into the largest trees. One blink, one nano-second of clarity can change the course of a lifetime. Anger certainly can be clarity. Because anger allows you to battle, and dealing with depression isn’t just a battle its a war, a lifetime’s worth of war. I don’t care what drugs people come up with, if you don’t have reason you don’t take them, and you lose the war. I don’t care how good the therapy is, if you don’t have reason you don’t trust and take advantage. People have to have a reason.

People without depression have this reason innate, it’s like breathing for them. They don’t have to wake up in the morning and remind themselves then, and throughout the day why life is good and worth living. They don’t have certain songs that will just simply shut down their entire ability to function. They don’t know how comfortable misery can be. Drugs and therapy don’t give you reason, they give your reason the weapons it needs to fight.

Now you can link studies until you are blue in the face, not a single one, or any single person is going to change my mind here, for reasons that don’t have the empirical backing your evidence will have. And that is fine by me. A hundred more people can post 200 more stompy foot childish rants about people having to grow up and it isn’t going to change survival.

I’m not trying to change your mind, you can still think it is a poor approach or thing to say. You can think I’m an asshole. I’m just trying to get you to take a step back, and do what I was told to do by someone who didn’t do what they demanded others to do, and stand in different shoes trying to get a perspective on WHY they would say something like that. Be a bit more intellectually curious than “they are just apathetic pricks”. Because most of the time, the people that hold the opinion you dislike are anything but.

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[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
What are you going to need? You’re now trapped, your emotions the gate and lock, your perspective the key, but a force has stopped the key from working. What are you going to need?

You’re going to need something to break through to give you reason. If that something just twists the key further (your implication of the effect of prickish remarks) it isn’t any different than the things that locked you up. But what if… and even if it is primal anger and hatred for someone so callous as to DARE not PC around the subject… what if that thing that breaks through gives you the long instant you need to open your eyes, catch your breath, reestablish a perspective outside your gates, and swim ashore?
[/quote]

Seriously?

So your solution to clinical depression is to piss them off until they break through?[/quote]

No, my solution, if you must have one, is reason.

For people so touched by people playing make believe that happen to make some art once in awhile you guys sure miss subtly.