RIP Robin Williams

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

So, while I do understand the need not to mock those with depression, it does not sound like Mr. Williams had that problem. He had a lot of debt, had to do crappy commercial work to pay off bitchy ex-wives. This sounds a lot more like Situation B than Situation A, but I suppose we will never know.
[/quote]

Not really, given that he had a long history with depression according to all the write-ups of his death.

What evidence leads you to believe that it “sounds a lot more like” your selfish depression than clinical depression or mental illness?[/quote]

News reports stating as much. Again, note my post clearly stated “I don’t know,” and that “we will never know.”
[/quote]

I know you said those things. I’m not accusing you. I was wondering why you would say that it seems one is more likely than the other when news reports are also clearly stating that he struggled with depression and mental issues as well. All other things being equal, one of those is a more powerful and convincing explanation than the other. By a long shot.

[quote]csulli wrote:

If we grew psychological attachment to EVERY random person who ever died we’d probably go insane. [/quote]

Not even remotely close to what I’m trying to say.

So… You dont’ think there is a single thing “out of whack” with caring about drug addict drunks that fuck anything that will let them, who generally act like children every chance they get and play pretend for a living, and not giving a single fuck about a dude who saves children as his hobby?

If Hollywood celebrities worked at a factory down the street, lived the same life style they do now, in the house next door to you, each and every one of you in this thread would move to a better neighborhood. But because they play pretend, you like pretend, those of us who might have a different perspective need to grow the fuck up…

Yeah, your post made sense, and illustrated my issues perfectly.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
CLINK’s principle point was about the classless, ignorant (I mean the term literally) bullshit that is always flung around in the aftermath of a news item involving suicide.[/quote]

So he fought fire with fire? lol

Not really.

I’ll explain further, but you’ll have to dig up my email.

[quote]If you discover that Robin Williams offed himself in order to avoid something like debt or criminal charges, go ahead and call him a coward. Maybe I’ll join you. Until then, if you (universal you, not “you” as in Beans) insist on tossing insults at a suicide the relevant details of which are unknown to you, you are in the unenviable position of being both a fool a dick.

Edited[/quote]

How about: If you insist on celebrating a man that might have enjoyed getting fueled up on coke and vodka and going about town to rape and murder prostitutes, you just don’t know the details of his life, you are in the unenviable position of being both a fool a dick.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

False.

[i]noun: compassion; plural noun: compassions

sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others[/i]

Why the hell do you think these people give up their time and money to save kids they have never, ever known for a single second?

It certainly isn’t for the e-props they get on facebook or the phat royalty checks they get from acting like a goof ball on TV.
[/quote]

Once you meet someone first hand, you build a connection. Hearing about some sick kid you’ve never met who died in a hospital? Yeah sorry, I and most people have a hard time feeling connected to that. But a a celebrity who captivated us? Different story.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

So… Because “most people could, but choose not to” the people that actually do aren’t particular special?[/quote]

Yes - you seem to have trouble accepting how the human mind determines value. Blame your creator.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Really?

You’re smarter than that. [/quote]

Don’t talk down to me, you’re better than that.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
And let’s not sit here and place some ever lasting intrinsic value on playing pretend. Does he have a talent for it? Sure. Does Derek Jeter play a good short stop? Yes. They both still play for a living. [/quote]

Again you’re dabbling in how things ought to be than actually are.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

So, while I do understand the need not to mock those with depression, it does not sound like Mr. Williams had that problem. He had a lot of debt, had to do crappy commercial work to pay off bitchy ex-wives. This sounds a lot more like Situation B than Situation A, but I suppose we will never know.
[/quote]

Not really, given that he had a long history with depression according to all the write-ups of his death.

What evidence leads you to believe that it “sounds a lot more like” your selfish depression than clinical depression or mental illness?[/quote]

News reports stating as much. Again, note my post clearly stated “I don’t know,” and that “we will never know.”
[/quote]

I know you said those things. I’m not accusing you. I was wondering why you would say that it seems one is more likely than the other when news reports are also clearly stating that he struggled with depression and mental issues as well. All other things being equal, one of those is a more powerful and convincing explanation than the other. By a long shot.[/quote]

Certain news coverage focus on his past addictions. And others focus on his financial woes. I think it just depends on what the controlling party for that particular organization will get the most views. The ultimate goal is to sell advertising space (or is that too cynical?).

I still think, for now, it was a combination of the two.

[quote]MinotaurXXX wrote:
The ultimate goal is to sell advertising space (or is that too cynical?).

[/quote]

No that is modern journalism in a nut shell. You’ll have pockets of people doing real hard news, but it will be surrounded by what you said.

I assume Fox is the only one who does it too. Or Fox just needs to grow up I guess.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

How about: If you insist on celebrating a man that might have enjoyed getting fueled up on coke and vodka and going about town to rape and murder prostitutes, you just don’t know the details of his life, you are in the unenviable position of being both a fool a dick.[/quote]

Where did raping and murdering prostitutes come from?

Anyway, I’m not talking about the celebration of his life–I specifically attacked the mawkish hyperbole of the media circus. I’m talking about calling a suicide, about which no directly confirmed motivational details are known, a selfish coward. That is indeed stupid and childish and fantastically classless.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Once you meet someone first hand, you build a connection. Hearing about some sick kid you’ve never met who died in a hospital? Yeah sorry, I and most people have a hard time feeling connected to that. But a a celebrity who captivated us? Different story.[/quote]

If you were remotely correct here there would be no charity, and zero welfare programs.

You don’t need to know someone to have compassion, and I’m not sure why you are convinced otherwise.

[quote]
Yes - you seem to have trouble accepting how the human mind determines value. Blame your creator. [/quote]

Couple hundred years ago, and for thousands of years before that slavery was totally cool with the “average human mind”. As in vast amounts of societies practiced it and accepted it.

We no longer do.

“How we determine value” isn’t static, or dictated by a creator as such.

[quote]
you’re better than that.[/quote]

No, only some days.

Because doing that has never, ever lead to the advancement of the species.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Where did raping and murdering prostitutes come from?[/quote]

From that fact, like you said, no one knows the details of his life. He played pretend on a screen, so everyone is all weepy.

Well if it turns out he was doing lines and strangling hookers, will the reactions to the reactions change? If people “need to keep an open mind” with regards to their remarks about suicide, don’t those celebrating him have to keep an open mind because all they know of him is the pretend he played.

As was mentioned, people copy cat…

I’m not going to judge anyone’s response to suicide.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Where did raping and murdering prostitutes come from?[/quote]

From that fact, like you said, no one knows the details of his life. He played pretend on a screen, so everyone is all weepy.

Well if it turns out he was doing lines and strangling hookers, will the reactions to the reactions change? If people “need to keep an open mind” with regards to their remarks about suicide, don’t those celebrating him have to keep an open mind because all they know of him is the pretend he played. [/quote]

No, that form of doubt is literally universal. I don’t know that George Washington never raped and killed a hooker. I don’t know that Charlemagne never raped and killed a hooker. I don’t know that Chesley Sullenberger never raped and killed a hooker. I don’t know that my grandfather never raped and killed a hooker. I don’t know that you haven’t raped and killed a hooker. Without evidence to suggest any given person has done such a thing, it is reasonable to operate under the assumption that they haven’t, and it is unreasonable to operate under the reverse assumption.

With a suicide like this, on the other hand, it is unreasonable to assume that you know the motivations when you don’t know the person intimately and you haven’t been made privy to evidence of one kind of motivation or another. Thus the foolishness. And as for the dickishness: I don’t think I need to spell that part out. Calling a suicide a coward without knowing anything about their mental state, struggle, or incapacity is self-evidently the conduct of a dick.

However, I agree with you, Beans, on the media circus of bromide and beatification.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
However, I agree with you, Beans, on the media circus of bromide and beatification.[/quote]

Yeah, this I know.

It is impossible to actually get my point across re: the other things we were talking about in a public setting.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
However, I agree with you, Beans, on the media circus of bromide and beatification.[/quote]

Yeah, this I know.

It is impossible to actually get my point across re: the other things we were talking about in a public setting. [/quote]

Ahh I see what you meant now. That is fair enough. I’m going to search for your email address a little later.

Clipped from a much longer blog post:

[i]His first few remarks about it were a very fair criticism of the media’s maudlin celebration of him, and heaping praise and sympathy on him.

Why is that a problem?

Well, think about it: There are tens of thousands of suicidal people in the world at any moment. What is the Very Last Thing you could possibly want to say to such a person?

That you’ll be praised as a wonderful human being who just felt the pain of the world too intensely, and that your decision to take your own life (leaving behind emotionally-slain children!!!) is completely understandable and even, if not quite justifiable, certainly deserving of sympathetic respect.

The problem with giving this sort of adulation to a suicide is not because we don’t want to praise the person who killed himself.

The problem is that we don’t wish to suggest to the tens of thousands of still-living potential suicides that we support them in their decision.

This is a dicey thing. On one hand, we do not wish to sound callous about someone who, reportedly and very plausibly, lived a less-than-happy life due to clinical depression. Our hearts go out to such persons-- as they go out to anyone living his life with a serious burden.

But on the other hand, we must not be so praiseworthy as to give encouragement to other people currently living right on the edge!

Limbaugh noted, quite properly, this tension, this ambiguity. How should we talk about suicides?

To call them “cowards” – as Shep Smith did – is to be cruel to they themselves (though, being dead, they can hardly feel the sting of the epithet), and yet it is also to be kind to those who have suicidal thoughts, and more importantly, to the families of those having suicidal thoughts.

We do not wish to put those families through the living nightmare of a suicide. For the rest of their lives, they will wonder: “What did I miss? Could I have done more? Was it all my fault?”

A suicide is actually a murder in which the killer makes his own family and close friends self-suspected conspirators in the murder for the rest of their lives.

So yes, we do wish to exhibit normal human sympathy for the dead.

But on the other hand, we do not want to encourage more people to kill themselves, thereby put more innocent victims (such as Robin Williams’ daughter Zelda) through the never-ending pain of always wondering, “Was I actually responsible for my father’s self-murder?”

It’s tricky, and people come down on this in different ways.

Limbaugh found that the media was being too praiseworthy of Williams, too understanding, and thus, with every good intention in the world, they wind up giving the signal that it’s really okay to kill yourself, if that’s where your demons drive you.

Do they intend that? Of course not! They intend nothing so terrible as that. But this is the natural consequence of being too effusive about a suicide.

As I said, it’s Tricky.

Sometimes by being cruel, you wind up being kind.

And sometimes by being kind, you wind up being cruel.[/i]

-Ace of Spades

I guess Ace has some growin’ up to do, eh?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Clipped from a much longer blog post:

[i]His first few remarks about it were a very fair criticism of the media’s maudlin celebration of him, and heaping praise and sympathy on him.

Why is that a problem?

Well, think about it: There are tens of thousands of suicidal people in the world at any moment. What is the Very Last Thing you could possibly want to say to such a person?

That you’ll be praised as a wonderful human being who just felt the pain of the world too intensely, and that your decision to take your own life (leaving behind emotionally-slain children!!!) is completely understandable and even, if not quite justifiable, certainly deserving of sympathetic respect.

The problem with giving this sort of adulation to a suicide is not because we don’t want to praise the person who killed himself.

The problem is that we don’t wish to suggest to the tens of thousands of still-living potential suicides that we support them in their decision.

This is a dicey thing. On one hand, we do not wish to sound callous about someone who, reportedly and very plausibly, lived a less-than-happy life due to clinical depression. Our hearts go out to such persons-- as they go out to anyone living his life with a serious burden.

But on the other hand, we must not be so praiseworthy as to give encouragement to other people currently living right on the edge!

Limbaugh noted, quite properly, this tension, this ambiguity. How should we talk about suicides?

To call them “cowards” – as Shep Smith did – is to be cruel to they themselves (though, being dead, they can hardly feel the sting of the epithet), and yet it is also to be kind to those who have suicidal thoughts, and more importantly, to the families of those having suicidal thoughts.

We do not wish to put those families through the living nightmare of a suicide. For the rest of their lives, they will wonder: “What did I miss? Could I have done more? Was it all my fault?”

A suicide is actually a murder in which the killer makes his own family and close friends self-suspected conspirators in the murder for the rest of their lives.

So yes, we do wish to exhibit normal human sympathy for the dead.

But on the other hand, we do not want to encourage more people to kill themselves, thereby put more innocent victims (such as Robin Williams’ daughter Zelda) through the never-ending pain of always wondering, “Was I actually responsible for my father’s self-murder?”

It’s tricky, and people come down on this in different ways.

Limbaugh found that the media was being too praiseworthy of Williams, too understanding, and thus, with every good intention in the world, they wind up giving the signal that it’s really okay to kill yourself, if that’s where your demons drive you.

Do they intend that? Of course not! They intend nothing so terrible as that. But this is the natural consequence of being too effusive about a suicide.

As I said, it’s Tricky.

Sometimes by being cruel, you wind up being kind.

And sometimes by being kind, you wind up being cruel.[/i]

-Ace of Spades

I guess Ace has some growin’ up to do, eh?
[/quote]

//// El Fin ///

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
I’m not so sure. I would think, with my limited ability to emphatize with a truly depressed person, that one who carries out the final act would be weaker in constitution or perhaps more selfish than one who chooses not to, given that both are making a conscious choice.
[/quote]

You calling someone who succumbs to suicide as a result of depression weaker and more selfish than someone who doesn’t is more or less tantamount to calling someone who dies of a heart attack weaker and more selfish than someone who survives a heart attack. They are simply two different outcomes of a medical condition, and it can only ever be one way or the other.[/quote]

My line of questioning was simply to understand this illness more in depth. The term “depressed” has been used loosely in various contexts, sometimes even describing someone having really bad day.

If depression as a clinical term is as you have described, then i apologise if what i wrote came across as insensitive. The only form of mental illness i have personally had interaction with is a person with schizophrenia (with symptoms of manic depression), and i fully agree with your heart attack analogy in his case.

But then, this is also why i question the mentality of the depressed person when he makes the final choice. How would you compare this to a schizophrenic WITH depression?

[quote]dt79 wrote:
But then, this is also why i question the mentality of the depressed person when he makes the final choice. [/quote]

I don’t mean this as an attack, but you’ll never understand, not to the degree I suspect you want to.

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
The fisher king is one of my favorite movies of all time. RIP [/quote]

got a hand job during it in the theater…good stuff…nanoo nanoo…mmm… yeah !

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Clipped from a much longer blog post:

[i]His first few remarks about it were a very fair criticism of the media’s maudlin celebration of him, and heaping praise and sympathy on him.

Why is that a problem?

Well, think about it: There are tens of thousands of suicidal people in the world at any moment. What is the Very Last Thing you could possibly want to say to such a person?

That you’ll be praised as a wonderful human being who just felt the pain of the world too intensely, and that your decision to take your own life (leaving behind emotionally-slain children!!!) is completely understandable and even, if not quite justifiable, certainly deserving of sympathetic respect.

The problem with giving this sort of adulation to a suicide is not because we don’t want to praise the person who killed himself.

The problem is that we don’t wish to suggest to the tens of thousands of still-living potential suicides that we support them in their decision.

This is a dicey thing. On one hand, we do not wish to sound callous about someone who, reportedly and very plausibly, lived a less-than-happy life due to clinical depression. Our hearts go out to such persons-- as they go out to anyone living his life with a serious burden.

But on the other hand, we must not be so praiseworthy as to give encouragement to other people currently living right on the edge!

Limbaugh noted, quite properly, this tension, this ambiguity. How should we talk about suicides?

To call them “cowards” – as Shep Smith did – is to be cruel to they themselves (though, being dead, they can hardly feel the sting of the epithet), and yet it is also to be kind to those who have suicidal thoughts, and more importantly, to the families of those having suicidal thoughts.

We do not wish to put those families through the living nightmare of a suicide. For the rest of their lives, they will wonder: “What did I miss? Could I have done more? Was it all my fault?”

A suicide is actually a murder in which the killer makes his own family and close friends self-suspected conspirators in the murder for the rest of their lives.

So yes, we do wish to exhibit normal human sympathy for the dead.

But on the other hand, we do not want to encourage more people to kill themselves, thereby put more innocent victims (such as Robin Williams’ daughter Zelda) through the never-ending pain of always wondering, “Was I actually responsible for my father’s self-murder?”

It’s tricky, and people come down on this in different ways.

Limbaugh found that the media was being too praiseworthy of Williams, too understanding, and thus, with every good intention in the world, they wind up giving the signal that it’s really okay to kill yourself, if that’s where your demons drive you.

Do they intend that? Of course not! They intend nothing so terrible as that. But this is the natural consequence of being too effusive about a suicide.

As I said, it’s Tricky.

Sometimes by being cruel, you wind up being kind.

And sometimes by being kind, you wind up being cruel.[/i]

-Ace of Spades

I guess Ace has some growin’ up to do, eh?
[/quote]

Yeah, he does.

There is a fundamental difference between the avoidance of suicide’s glorification and the calling of a suicide a selfish coward.

Also–and this seems not to matter to a troubling number of intelligent people–suicide brought on by clinical depression, which has absolutely not been ruled out in the present case, is not compatible with juvenile and prickish value judgements like “selfish coward.” Think about what human organ gives rise to an act of cowardice, and then think about what clinical depression does, by its very definition, to that same human organ.

Edited