One of the most hated figures in the comedy world for decades for his notorious status as a prolific joke thief.
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]CLINK wrote:
(as they’ve used on Fox News)
[/quote]
Fox news is on the “he was a Saint” bandwagon, so I am not sure what you mean here.
Nope, right on the mark.
Anyone “sucidee” who does not realize what he is doing to his children (or whomever) is either so selfish he doesn’t care about his kids or lashing out at loved ones in the ultimate passive-agressive bullshit manner that he can be called a coward.
Yeah, I don’t know shit about depression, PTSD or what injured vets go through. Not a clue what its like sitting in Walter Reed 1/2 covered with 2nd and 3rd degree burns, getting my raw skin scraped off with silver oxide debridement, and wondering if my dick will work. No idea, at all.
Idiot.
I think you’re approaching the issue with a degree of otherwise noble naivety. You have a much better understanding of the hardships that can lead people down the path of depression and mental problems, and with that knowledge you have I would encourage you to have a frank discussion with a fellow veteran who is open about PTSD to better appreciate the challenge that comes with living a normal life under the pall of depression or anxiety or overwhelming anger. Suicide is not caused by an inherent selfishness. It’s a final symptom of and - to the victim - a desperate solution to the relentless ebb and flow of mental and emotional instability. Generally speaking of course.
If we go about discussing this issue in terms of selfishness, weakness or a lack of some stereotypical bravery we’re supposed to have then we are totally ignoring the psychological realities that people with depression or PTSD live in. So many people are sad about Robin Williams dying. But it’s not just about Williams.
[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]CLINK wrote:
(as they’ve used on Fox News)
[/quote]
Fox news is on the “he was a Saint” bandwagon, so I am not sure what you mean here.
Nope, right on the mark.
Anyone “sucidee” who does not realize what he is doing to his children (or whomever) is either so selfish he doesn’t care about his kids or lashing out at loved ones in the ultimate passive-agressive bullshit manner that he can be called a coward.
Yeah, I don’t know shit about depression, PTSD or what injured vets go through. Not a clue what its like sitting in Walter Reed 1/2 covered with 2nd and 3rd degree burns, getting my raw skin scraped off with silver oxide debridement, and wondering if my dick will work. No idea, at all.
Idiot.
I think you’re approaching the issue with a degree of otherwise noble naivety. You have a much better understanding of the hardships that can lead people down the path of depression and mental problems, and with that knowledge you have I would encourage you to have a frank discussion with a fellow veteran who is open about PTSD to better appreciate the challenge that comes with living a normal life under the pall of depression or anxiety or overwhelming anger. Suicide is not caused by an inherent selfishness. It’s a final symptom of and - to the victim - a desperate solution to the relentless ebb and flow of mental and emotional instability. Generally speaking of course.
If we go about discussing this issue in terms of selfishness, weakness or a lack of some stereotypical bravery we’re supposed to have then we are totally ignoring the psychological realities that people with depression or PTSD live in. So many people are sad about Robin Williams dying. But it’s not just about Williams.
[/quote]
But how is suicide a “final symptom”? Is the afflicted person not in at least partial control of his mental faculties? Or is the act performed in a state of automatism? In the end, is it not a conscious choice?
[quote]dt79 wrote:
But how is suicide a “final symptom”? Is the afflicted person not in at least partial control of his mental faculties? Or is the act performed in a state of automatism? In the end, is it not a conscious choice?
[/quote]
Yes, I see what you’re saying. I’m not using the word ‘suicide’ in it’s technical sense. What I mean is: the cause and affect context of suicide following decades of depression is a scenario that would very likely never have ended the way it did if Williams wasn’t suffering from depression.
Essentially, the psychology of a person suffering a mental illness is broken. It is not inherently cowardly, or weak or selfish. It’s broken and it can be repaired to an extent. You wouldn’t call a car with a dead battery a bad car, right? Or a person with a damaged heart cowardly? why are we accusing suicidal people with clinical conditions that can seek treatment and a degree of repair names?
[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
But how is suicide a “final symptom”? Is the afflicted person not in at least partial control of his mental faculties? Or is the act performed in a state of automatism? In the end, is it not a conscious choice?
[/quote]
Yes, I see what you’re saying. I’m not using the word ‘suicide’ in it’s technical sense. What I mean is: the cause and affect context of suicide following decades of depression is a scenario that would very likely never have ended the way it did if Williams wasn’t suffering from depression.
Essentially, the psychology of a person suffering a mental illness is broken. It is not inherently cowardly, or weak or selfish. It’s broken and it can be repaired to an extent. You wouldn’t call a car with a dead battery a bad car, right? Or a person with a damaged heart cowardly? why are we accusing suicidal people with clinical conditions that can seek treatment and a degree of repair names?[/quote]
I’m not so sure. I would think, with my limited ability to emphatize with a truly depressed person, that one who carries out the final act would be weaker in constitution or perhaps more selfish than one who chooses not to, given that both are making a conscious choice.
Or is the degree of suffering related to the gift/curse of imagination, as in the case of Robin Williams?
Which may be why i have not seen this happen with simpler people living truly hopeless lives.
Interesting views.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
I’m not so sure. I would think, with my limited ability to emphatize with a truly depressed person, that one who carries out the final act would be weaker in constitution or perhaps more selfish than one who chooses not to, given that both are making a conscious choice.
[/quote]
Look I used to be all pragmatic about suicides and found it to be the ultimate cop out and act of cowardice, but it’s really not that simple. Depression, in addition to being a descriptive noun, is also an actual medical condition. Is it applied often in situations where it doesn’t actually fit? Yea I’m sure it is, but as a scientifically minded person I cannot ignore the data accrediting the existence of depression as a medical condition.
I’ve never had anything even remotely approaching depression, I’m just looking at the science. You calling someone who succumbs to suicide as a result of depression weaker and more selfish than someone who doesn’t is more or less tantamount to calling someone who dies of a heart attack weaker and more selfish than someone who survives a heart attack. They are simply two different outcomes of a medical condition, and it can only ever be one way or the other.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
I’m not so sure. I would think, with my limited ability to emphatize with a truly depressed person, that one who carries out the final act would be weaker in constitution or perhaps more selfish than one who chooses not to, given that both are making a conscious choice.
[/quote]
Look I used to be all pragmatic about suicides and found it to be the ultimate cop out and act of cowardice, but it’s really not that simple. Depression, in addition to being a descriptive noun, is also an actual medical condition. Is it applied often in situations where it doesn’t actually fit? Yea I’m sure it is, but as a scientifically minded person I cannot ignore the data accrediting the existence of depression as a medical condition.
I’ve never had anything even remotely approaching depression, I’m just looking at the science. You calling someone who succumbs to suicide as a result of depression weaker and more selfish than someone who doesn’t is more or less tantamount to calling someone who dies of a heart attack weaker and more selfish than someone who survives a heart attack. They are simply two different outcomes of a medical condition, and it can only ever be one way or the other.[/quote]
Exactly.
Perfect point and analogy.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Don’t let anyone think I’m trivializing depression. Not my point.
My point is don’t idolize people who really have done nothing more than just make their livings by appearing in front of large groups of people. They’re really not as “special” as you think.
Now surely they are special to their own friends and families, don’t get me wrong, but if you don’t know him/her personally and you literally are getting depressed about his/her depression and death your life is way too easy and unfulfilled in its own right – and that’s something YOU can do something about.[/quote]
Push I got you point but these threads always, ALWAYS devolve down to the people that do not believe in depression and the ones who do.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
My point is don’t idolize people who really have done nothing more than just make their livings by appearing in front of large groups of people. They’re really not as “special” as you think.
Now surely they are special to their own friends and families, don’t get me wrong, but if you don’t know him/her personally and you literally are getting depressed about his/her depression and death your life is way too easy and unfulfilled in its own right – and that’s something YOU can do something about.[/quote]
Well I can’t argue with that I guess lol. I think I get what you’re saying now. Your advice would just be that people shouldn’t be getting attached to celebrities in such a way. People do though. A lot of people feel their lives enriched by certain folks who get in front of large groups of people trying to provide them with enjoyment and escapism and maybe even some more profound things.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Don’t let anyone think I’m trivializing depression. Not my point.
My point is don’t idolize people who really have done nothing more than just make their livings by appearing in front of large groups of people. They’re really not as “special” as you think.
Now surely they are special to their own friends and families, don’t get me wrong, but if you don’t know him/her personally and you literally are getting depressed about his/her depression and death your life is way too easy and unfulfilled in its own right – and that’s something YOU can do something about.[/quote]
I have to agree with a lot of this. I don’t have a problem with people being upset about the violent suicide of a public person they’ve liked for a long while–it’s natural. I liked Robin Williams since I was a little kid, I loved Good Will Hunting, I’m disturbed by the image of his death, I have seen suicide up close and I sympathize with anyone driven to such an extreme, and I feel for his family.
What gets me is the media circus. I am disgusted by the (lucrative) marathons of mawkish bromide and vapid hyperbole that the media run in the aftermath of a well-liked celebrity’s death. Should we all just pretend that there weren’t kids dying in the United States on the day that Williams expired? Innocent kids who never got the opportunity to make money and have sex with beautiful people and eat expensive meals at exclusive restaurants? This is not to mention the fact that all the Wolf Blitzer/Shep Smith/“now-we’ve-got-Henry-Winkler-on-the-phone” bullshit detracts from the actual tragedy of the actual man who actually killed himself.
But the coward thing: If one is going to say something stupid and uninformed, one should always try to make sure it’s something nice. Dumb and asshole are a nasty duo of adjectives.
[Edit: Last sentence not directed at you, Push. I get what you are saying and mostly agree with it.]
[quote]pushharder wrote:
My point is don’t idolize people who really have done nothing more than just make their livings by appearing in front of large groups of people. They’re really not as “special” as you think.
[/quote]
The rarity of his talent is what made him “special”. The average jerkoff couldn’t captivate the masses, especially not to the degree he could.
I agree that people shouldn’t feel overly depressed from the death of a celebrity but it doesn’t necessarily surprise me or strike me as a evidence for some personal deficiency.
People get tied to those who give them feel good emotions - in person or on camera. Just the way we are wired.
To those who are angered by all this and to those who are greatly saddened by this, I’m not going to say one’s right and the other’s wrong.
However, not everyone who pays respect to a recently deceased celebrity - be it movie star, athlete, scientist - have lost perspective.