Rioting in St. Lou

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I figure the truth is somewhere in the middle here. As in the first shot or two was self defense and the cop then kept on shooting after he had gotten some separation, either due to adrenaline, rage, or fear.
[/quote]

Eh… I’m 100% speculating here but my money is on:

Once the cop decided to fire he decided on lethal force. Brown was something like 6’4" 290+, and the cop likely carrying a 9mm. The cop knowingly unloaded his mag into this kid.

I’m saying, unjustified shooting or not, every single trigger pull was the result of a conscious action. As in, if its self defense, it was going to take as many rounds as he could get off to stop someone this size, and even if its murder, its going to take as many rounds as he can to make sure someone his size dies. [/quote]

I wasn’t saying that it wasn’t a conscious action. And I don’t know what happened, but if there was an altercation, which I think is likely, and the police officer decided to draw his weapon and fire, after the first few shots he probably had separation. This would go along with witness statements. Then he made the decision to keep shooting. I don’t know why. Maybe he was just pissed, maybe he was afraid, but whatever the reason, he crossed the line into excessive by finishing off a downed man.

Again this is speculation but I always have the tendency to believe that the truth is most likely bits and pieces of what each side are saying.

42

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
So…

Looks like Mr. Brown was a ROBBERY suspect minutes before he was stopped.

I guess they got the crime on video.

Hmmmm[/quote]

Emphasis on the word, “SUSPECT”. UNARMED SUSPECT…[/quote]

And what happened during this encounter? He does not have the right to arrest him. Just because he matches the description, he can’t arrest the guy right? The victim has to ID the dude, right?

43

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I’m a little surprised that our local T-Nation law enforcement buddies are staying silent on this one… Could it be that they can’t find any excuses for the behavior of this department?
[/quote]

Could it possibly be that we don’t know all of the facts? When I give an opinion, I usually try to make an informed one. It’s curious to see the persumption of innocence doesn’t apply here. Let me make this clear: It appears to be excessive force given what we know. Emerging facts can counter that appearance, so why render an opinion? Can anyone imagine, even if it’s a slim chance, that maybe, just maybe that the officer was justified? The crediblity of the witness needs also to be examined.

Did anyone ask why this video just now became public? If he gave false statements and/or ommissions, this will be cruicial. Maybe not in the court of public opinion, but in the court of law. Again, I don’t defend nor condone the actions of the officer. I simply don’t know the facts and circumstances. Since I’m a detective, I appriciate and understand complexities of an investigation. If he was wrong, I say convict his ass like any other criminal. I don’t excuse criminal conduct, whether it’s a co-worker or a family member.
[/quote]

What is there to “wait a see” if dude is shot in the back?

44

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
after the first few shots he probably had separation. This would go along with witness statements. Then he made the decision to keep shooting. I don’t know why. [/quote]

We’re basically on the same page here. I’m just saying “I know why”. And my speculation was the cop’s mind was made up, and he had a smaller caliber firearm and this kids was fucking huge.

This is were I’m currently leaning as well.

[quote]Again this is speculation but I always have the tendency to believe that the truth is most likely bits and pieces of what each side are saying.
[/quote]

Agreed.

I don’t think the cop pulled up with the intention of killing anyone, but I do think (and it appears to be out of line) once he pulled that trigger he was intent on being the only one left alive.

45

Let’s keep in mind some of the original claims, that this kid was “minding his own business.”

We went from that, to him being a suspect in a robbery, along with video evidence showing him assaulting the store clerk.

Not saying he should be shot for that, but if he resisted arrested while standing 6’4 and 290 lbs, I can tell you many of us here (me included) would shit our pants if he struggled to get away or go for the cop’s gun.

46

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I’m a little surprised that our local T-Nation law enforcement buddies are staying silent on this one… Could it be that they can’t find any excuses for the behavior of this department?
[/quote]

I’m not surprised that people have assumed the police involved are guilty without knowing the facts. I didn’t comment for a few reasons, one of them being I don’t know the details of the case and I don’t find media to be reliable on these issues. I’m also not going to waste my time when “Fuck da PO-LEES” comes out. I have my time wasted fielding questions from the peanut gallery in real-life, so why do it here?

47

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
I want more background on the kid. If he was a good kid and getting ready to go to college, why didn’t he just get out of the road like the cop said and what the hell was he doing reaching for the cop’s gun?[/quote]

People panic.

You don’t expect people to act rationally when under stress or facing situations that they haven’t faced before.

Did that happen here? I dunno.

But I don’t really get it when people say “Why did X do Y or Z? It’s stupid”.

Of course it’s stupid. But only to a detached individual who isn’t in the moment.

48

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I’m a little surprised that our local T-Nation law enforcement buddies are staying silent on this one… Could it be that they can’t find any excuses for the behavior of this department?
[/quote]

Could it possibly be that we don’t know all of the facts? When I give an opinion, I usually try to make an informed one. It’s curious to see the persumption of innocence doesn’t apply here. Let me make this clear: It appears to be excessive force given what we know. Emerging facts can counter that appearance, so why render an opinion? Can anyone imagine, even if it’s a slim chance, that maybe, just maybe that the officer was justified? The crediblity of the witness needs also to be examined.

Did anyone ask why this video just now became public? If he gave false statements and/or ommissions, this will be cruicial. Maybe not in the court of public opinion, but in the court of law. Again, I don’t defend nor condone the actions of the officer. I simply don’t know the facts and circumstances. Since I’m a detective, I appriciate and understand complexities of an investigation. If he was wrong, I say convict his ass like any other criminal. I don’t excuse criminal conduct, whether it’s a co-worker or a family member.
[/quote]

I agree that we should wait to comment on the spark that caused the explosion (although shooting an unarmed person seems excessive IMO), I’m commenting on the arrest of reporters charging their laptop in McDonalds, shooting tear gas at reporters, arresting aldermen, shooting rubber bullets at people praying… THAT kind of behavior…

49

[quote]magick wrote:

People panic.

You don’t expect people to act rationally when under stress or facing situations that they haven’t faced before.

[/quote]

It’s true. The first time the police pulled me over I “panicked” and went for his gun. It’s a perfectly normal reaction to try to steal a police officer’s gun. /sarcasm

But it’s good to throw it out there like a red herring though isn’t it?

50

[quote]Will207 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I’m a little surprised that our local T-Nation law enforcement buddies are staying silent on this one… Could it be that they can’t find any excuses for the behavior of this department?
[/quote]

I’m not surprised that people have assumed the police involved are guilty without knowing the facts. I didn’t comment for a few reasons, one of them being I don’t know the details of the case and I don’t find media to be reliable on these issues. I’m also not going to waste my time when “Fuck da PO-LEES” comes out. I have my time wasted fielding questions from the peanut gallery in real-life, so why do it here? [/quote]

I have not written the words, “fuck the police” since I agreed not to several threads back. And like I told Brett, I’m less interested in the particulars of the initial shooting than I am in the militarized response, total suspension of civil rights and just blatant outrageous offensive actions against people not advancing at them. Tear gas shot at a news crew. Reporters charging their laptops inside a McDonalds arrested. Pastor shot with a rubber bullet WHILE PRAYING… You cant really deny any of THAT can you? It’s been recorded, tweeted and backed up by witnesses…

HOW DO YOU EXCUSE THOSE ACTIONS?

51

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I’m a little surprised that our local T-Nation law enforcement buddies are staying silent on this one… Could it be that they can’t find any excuses for the behavior of this department?
[/quote]

Could it possibly be that we don’t know all of the facts? When I give an opinion, I usually try to make an informed one. It’s curious to see the persumption of innocence doesn’t apply here. Let me make this clear: It appears to be excessive force given what we know. Emerging facts can counter that appearance, so why render an opinion? Can anyone imagine, even if it’s a slim chance, that maybe, just maybe that the officer was justified? The crediblity of the witness needs also to be examined.

Did anyone ask why this video just now became public? If he gave false statements and/or ommissions, this will be cruicial. Maybe not in the court of public opinion, but in the court of law. Again, I don’t defend nor condone the actions of the officer. I simply don’t know the facts and circumstances. Since I’m a detective, I appriciate and understand complexities of an investigation. If he was wrong, I say convict his ass like any other criminal. I don’t excuse criminal conduct, whether it’s a co-worker or a family member.
[/quote]

What is there to “wait a see” if dude is shot in the back?
[/quote]

I’m not privy to the evidence. Let’s wait for the autopsy results. So now we take media reports, and their purported bias, at face value?

53

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Will207 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I’m a little surprised that our local T-Nation law enforcement buddies are staying silent on this one… Could it be that they can’t find any excuses for the behavior of this department?
[/quote]

I’m not surprised that people have assumed the police involved are guilty without knowing the facts. I didn’t comment for a few reasons, one of them being I don’t know the details of the case and I don’t find media to be reliable on these issues. I’m also not going to waste my time when “Fuck da PO-LEES” comes out. I have my time wasted fielding questions from the peanut gallery in real-life, so why do it here? [/quote]

I have not written the words, “fuck the police” since I agreed not to several threads back. And like I told Brett, I’m less interested in the particulars of the initial shooting than I am in the militarized response, total suspension of civil rights and just blatant outrageous offensive actions against people not advancing at them. Tear gas shot at a news crew. Reporters charging their laptops inside a McDonalds arrested. Pastor shot with a rubber bullet WHILE PRAYING… You cant really deny any of THAT can you? It’s been recorded, tweeted and backed up by witnesses…

HOW DO YOU EXCUSE THOSE ACTIONS?[/quote]

I wasn’t speaking about you, just the forums in general.

I didn’t excuse or condemn the actions of the police in this matter. There is a process and I’ll wait until it is complete to form an opinion.

54

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I’m a little surprised that our local T-Nation law enforcement buddies are staying silent on this one… Could it be that they can’t find any excuses for the behavior of this department?
[/quote]

Could it possibly be that we don’t know all of the facts? When I give an opinion, I usually try to make an informed one. It’s curious to see the persumption of innocence doesn’t apply here. Let me make this clear: It appears to be excessive force given what we know. Emerging facts can counter that appearance, so why render an opinion? Can anyone imagine, even if it’s a slim chance, that maybe, just maybe that the officer was justified? The crediblity of the witness needs also to be examined.

Did anyone ask why this video just now became public? If he gave false statements and/or ommissions, this will be cruicial. Maybe not in the court of public opinion, but in the court of law. Again, I don’t defend nor condone the actions of the officer. I simply don’t know the facts and circumstances. Since I’m a detective, I appriciate and understand complexities of an investigation. If he was wrong, I say convict his ass like any other criminal. I don’t excuse criminal conduct, whether it’s a co-worker or a family member.
[/quote]

I agree that we should wait to comment on the spark that caused the explosion (although shooting an unarmed person seems excessive IMO), I’m commenting on the arrest of reporters charging their laptop in McDonalds, shooting tear gas at reporters, arresting aldermen, shooting rubber bullets at people praying… THAT kind of behavior…[/quote]

Fair enough. It doesn’t really make sense, but again, I suspect maybe the department has a take on this incident. For instance, where is the whole unedited video? I see cell phone footage, but where is the McDonald’s video. All of them have it. Check the dispatch tapes, did management call requesting police assistance because the reporters were there taking up the lobby limiting customer space? They camped out at the restaurant and used it for their home base for how many days? What if (speculate for a second), police released the dispatch tapes showing a call for service to remove the reporters from the lobby? I’m just saying this is possible. Everyone who works patrol knows these type of incidents are fairly common. That’s why I can’t imagine them doing something like that (as reported by the men who were detained) knowing they are under a microscope. And with the department already showing their ability to hold their evidence close, I just think this may be possible before I comment and throw the officers under the bus.

But if managment did not request the officers (unless they have a trespass waiver, which is another story), and management advised the officers they were customers and/or welcome at the restaurant, it would appear to be an unlawful detention. I would imagine if the reporters statements were accurrate, there might be a civil suit. This is just my way of thinking before I comment.

55

I am glad things seem to have settled down.

56

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I’m a little surprised that our local T-Nation law enforcement buddies are staying silent on this one… Could it be that they can’t find any excuses for the behavior of this department?
[/quote]

Could it possibly be that we don’t know all of the facts? When I give an opinion, I usually try to make an informed one. It’s curious to see the persumption of innocence doesn’t apply here. Let me make this clear: It appears to be excessive force given what we know. Emerging facts can counter that appearance, so why render an opinion? Can anyone imagine, even if it’s a slim chance, that maybe, just maybe that the officer was justified? The crediblity of the witness needs also to be examined.

Did anyone ask why this video just now became public? If he gave false statements and/or ommissions, this will be cruicial. Maybe not in the court of public opinion, but in the court of law. Again, I don’t defend nor condone the actions of the officer. I simply don’t know the facts and circumstances. Since I’m a detective, I appriciate and understand complexities of an investigation. If he was wrong, I say convict his ass like any other criminal. I don’t excuse criminal conduct, whether it’s a co-worker or a family member.
[/quote]

What is there to “wait a see” if dude is shot in the back?
[/quote]

I’m not privy to the evidence. Let’s wait for the autopsy results. So now we take media reports, and their purported bias, at face value? [/quote]

Why did the police wait so damn long to release this info? I mean, don’t you think it was in the publics best interest to bring up all of this to quell the riots and chaos? And what “scenario” can you spin to justify dude getting shot with his hands up and in the back???

57

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I’m a little surprised that our local T-Nation law enforcement buddies are staying silent on this one… Could it be that they can’t find any excuses for the behavior of this department?
[/quote]

Could it possibly be that we don’t know all of the facts? When I give an opinion, I usually try to make an informed one. It’s curious to see the persumption of innocence doesn’t apply here. Let me make this clear: It appears to be excessive force given what we know. Emerging facts can counter that appearance, so why render an opinion? Can anyone imagine, even if it’s a slim chance, that maybe, just maybe that the officer was justified? The crediblity of the witness needs also to be examined.

Did anyone ask why this video just now became public? If he gave false statements and/or ommissions, this will be cruicial. Maybe not in the court of public opinion, but in the court of law. Again, I don’t defend nor condone the actions of the officer. I simply don’t know the facts and circumstances. Since I’m a detective, I appriciate and understand complexities of an investigation. If he was wrong, I say convict his ass like any other criminal. I don’t excuse criminal conduct, whether it’s a co-worker or a family member.
[/quote]

What is there to “wait a see” if dude is shot in the back?
[/quote]

I’m not privy to the evidence. Let’s wait for the autopsy results. So now we take media reports, and their purported bias, at face value? [/quote]

Why did the police wait so damn long to release this info? I mean, don’t you think it was in the publics best interest to bring up all of this to quell the riots and chaos? And what “scenario” can you spin to justify dude getting shot with his hands up and in the back???[/quote]

Look up Tennessee vs Garner.

58

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
I want more background on the kid. If he was a good kid and getting ready to go to college, why didn’t he just get out of the road like the cop said and what the hell was he doing reaching for the cop’s gun?[/quote]

He committed a robbery about 3 minutes before being shot. Did a grab and go of swisher sweets and pushed over a clerk and some dude in line. Long ish rap sheet. Wanna be rapper.

59

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
I am glad things seem to have settled down.[/quote]

O really? Lol. We’re u aware of the “Rev.” Jesse Jackson’s comments?

60

One thing in this whole deal and would like explained. How is showing the video of Mr. Brown strong arm robbing someone an act of character assignation?

Isn’t it showing a proof of character?

If in the video the store employee would have pulled a gun and shot Mr. Brown when he turned around and aggressively approached him would it be justified homicide?