Based on what I know about this one – which is basically that I’ve see the video – the protests this time are going to be justified and legitimate. What I saw was a guy getting killed for just about about no reason, with a choke-hold that is against NYPD policy, over the sale of a fucking cigarette.[/quote]
And people wonder why I’m not into government getting involved in things.
Who gives police power? Government.
Should we have police? Absolutely.
Should someone be able to stand on the sidewalk and sell a cigarette? Fuck yes.
[/quote]But then the DEMOCRATS, who want to ban cigarettes (and soda, and fast food, etc…) and tell people how the fuck to live would lose out on the SIN TAX that is imposed on each pack of cigarettes! A pack of smokes in NY cost almost ten bucks. This guy got killed for about $0.25 worth of lost revenue…[quote]
Should a cop have any reason to even do anything other than nod and say good day? No.
This is what happens when cops can live by special rules, and the people are regulated (literally) to death. [/quote]
That’s why they have all these stupid fucking laws, so that the Police can have just about ANY excuse to stop you and fuck with you. I’m not talking about major felonies, I’m talking about Jaywalking, selling cigarettes (or selling the leaves of a naturally growing plant, for that matter!), Driving without the right sticker on your car, etc…
My local cops are great. Good people, and only two arrogant douchebags, fair arrogant douchebags, but arrogant just the same.
I like police driving through my neighborhoods, because the scum of the surrounding cities trickles in now and again. I appreciate what police do for me and donate to their fund raisers all the time.
But unless something seriously different happened when that video cut… These dudes are cock suckers of the highest order.
Killed by a cop over a petty crime, and Mr. Special Rules (we won’t even get into them being able to own firearms citizens can’t) walks away no questions asked. Johnny Citizen puts Tommy Citizen in that hold, sits on his head and kills him… Johnny is getting 20 to life. Bobby LEO does it? Nah, you’re good son, have a nice day, get more leg tattoos.
My reasoning (which informed my wording above, because I am getting very good at covering my ass):
I find it reasonable to think that Brown acted like an aggressive and criminal thug with Wilson because in the only video of Brown I have ever seen, he was acting like an aggressive and criminal thug.
[/quote]
He was also a hip hop (ahem) “artist” and, from what I can decipher from the stream of conscious gibberish he has an interest in sadism and murdering people with firearms. He was a scumbag thug in my estimation and probably would’ve gone on to maim or kill somebody.
But finding something “reasonable” is not the same as finding him legally guilty of criminal offences. I’m as satisfied as one can be in such a situation, that Big Mike was guilty of assaulting a police officer and attempting to take his firearm(which I consider attempted murder from the subjective perspective of the officer). And I’m basing this assessment, not on some guess based upon Big Mike’s past behaviour but on the testimony of around a dozen witnesses.
I note the parallel. Now note the distinction I made about actual evidence in the form of witness testimonies. You’re guessing. And it’s a guess based on a personal animosity formed from his behaviour in an interview.
2 is not supported by any witnesses. 2 is a personal animosity you formed against the victim(Officer Wilson).
You wouldn’t convict him based on a guess as to what you think he said? How magnanimous of you.
Dealing with people “inappropriately” and even “aggressively” is entirely subjective and the terms are so vague as to be mere pejoratives. They’re the kind of terms that allow one to imply and suggest without committing oneself to specificities.
Who cares what Wilson said to him anyway? What kind of a nut tries to grab a cop’s gun, gets a chance to run then turns around and charges at the cop again? That’s precisely what the witnesses describe this maniac as doing. If you have some problem with police etiquette then deal with specifics instances of which evidence exists. I’ve found many cops to be antagonistic arseholes as I said above but this is a clear cut case of a clean kill. And it’s been turned into a playground for the left.
The interview you saw constitutes “incontrovertible evidence” that he was an “(vague pejorative term)” and a “bad cop”. You’re just trying to be provocative now. I know you guys on the left can’t help yourselves when there’s some mob action going on; I know you get whipped up in the frenzy, but thinking people are repulsed by the rabble and the looting and the arson and the race baiting. I’m inclined to give Wilson every benefit of the doubt under the circumstances. Only there isn’t any doubt. He did nothing wrong and your “incontrovertible” guessing amounts to nothing and merely reflects some underlying psychological impulse.
There was miscarriage of justice here in the form of your AG sending federal agents to investigate an officer and an entire police department over a fabricated story - another fabricated story like Trayvon Martin. Eric smells racial animus again and a massive federal operation is launched; investigations; millions upon millions of dollars; hundreds of federal agents and shyster civil rights lawyers on the public payroll acting like fucking NKVD or something. It’s frightening stuff. All initiated out of nowhere by these race hustlers and then taken advantage of by Obama and Holder to act out their pathological spite and delusions.
[quote]
But there are peripheral things that we can talk about – and that we should talk about – even if they are things we believe rather than things we can prove, or things we suspect rather than things we believe.
Edited.[/quote]
Get out of here with that crap. The only thing you should be concerned with is your tyrannical federal government and the problems you’ve got with “youths”.
I just watched the video. What’s your take on that, Brett?
I see a guy who’s obviously been harassed before, being taken down and choked to death by multiple police officers while repeatedly communicating the officers that he in unable to breath. But they kept going…
And this resulted in no indictment? Not even a TRIAL?
The Brown case was obviously some Media-fueled bullshit. This is a legitimate reason for a community to be upset.
[/quote]
Without saying too much, I was surprised. Hell, the ME ruled it as a homicide. Our dept., like NYC bars the use of chokeholds. It’s deadly force. If you are justified using deadly force, just shoot. I don’t want to say I disagree at this point without seeing the full transcript, but very surprised.
And illegal cigarettes are a joke. What’s next, Big Gulps?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I don’t care if the officer called Brown names - no matter WHAT he said, it doesn’t justify Brown ATTACKING and HITTING him (or going for his gun…) WORDS are not a reason to attack ANYONE, for that matter. Brown attacked a POLICE OFFICER. If the officer called him an idiot, I’d say Brown proved him right.
[/quote]
I don’t think a single person here disagrees. I certainly never don’t, and nothing I wrote did.
You have; however, made it clear you think it’s appropriate (or at least acceptable) for a police officer to exhibit this sort of behavior when speaking to a citizen
[/quote]
Firstly, WHAT SORT OF BEHAVIOUR? Have you guys lost your minds? There was no antagonistic behaviour or being a dick or whatever. It’s a figment of your own imagination.
[quote]
(not even a suspect) especially if they look like a thug.
I wholeheartedly disagree.
It’s to be expected that anyone, police officer or otherwise, is going to be less amenable to someone who looks like a thug and behaves like a thug. That doesn’t mean I condone any kind of inappropriate behaviour. I’m just acknowledging an obvious fact. And it’s not an “issue.” A specific incidence is an issue. Pointing out a general fact about human interactions does not mean there is an issue to address.
I’m sufficiently qualified in research methodology to determine the relative weight to give to different types of sources. When a major media outlet directly quotes witness statements and I have no reason to doubt the validity of the quotes then I assess them and draw my own conclusions, which are often at odds with the accompanying interpretations and/or opinions. So, I rely upon the media only in so far as they can be relied upon and no further.
And your point is?
That has nothing to do with this case and the two should not be linked. This is an innocent cop who had his life destroyed by the mob.
Actually it is the point. Your issues with how the police deal with citizens in general is entirely unrelated and you should not play into the hands of the left with this. This should be a time when you back the police because they are in the right and the mob has turned a non-incident into a vehicle for their subversive agenda.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I don’t care if the officer called Brown names - no matter WHAT he said, it doesn’t justify Brown ATTACKING and HITTING him (or going for his gun…) WORDS are not a reason to attack ANYONE, for that matter. Brown attacked a POLICE OFFICER. If the officer called him an idiot, I’d say Brown proved him right.
[/quote]
I don’t think a single person here disagrees. I certainly never don’t, and nothing I wrote did.[/quote]
Ya, I think we’re pretty much all in agreement here.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Firstly, WHAT SORT OF BEHAVIOUR? Have you guys lost your minds? There was no antagonistic behaviour or being a dick or whatever. It’s a figment of your own imagination. [/quote]
You don’t know and can’t prove there was no antagonistic behavior. You weren’t there. I think you’re being purposefully naive if you think Wilson was all sun shine and rainbows while Brown was Satan reincarnated. I think most people have had both good and bad interactions with the police in their life.
I’m simply open to the possibility Wilson wasn’t acting like Mary mother of Jesus at the initial encounter.
[quote]
It’s to be expected that anyone, police officer or otherwise, is going to be less amenable to someone who looks like a thug and behaves like a thug. [/quote]
Which is an issue. Police officers aren’t paid to judge a person on their fashion choice or how they walk.
[quote]
That doesn’t mean I condone any kind of inappropriate behaviour. [/quote]
Ok.
[quote]
I’m just acknowledging an obvious fact. And it’s not an “issue.” A specific incidence is an issue. Pointing out a general fact about human interactions does not mean there is an issue to address. [/quote]
Police officers are caught on camera all the time being assholes. I would that an issue.
[quote]
I’m sufficiently qualified in research methodology to determine the relative weight to give to different types of sources. When a major media outlet directly quotes witness statements and I have no reason to doubt the validity of the quotes then I assess them and draw my own conclusions, which are often at odds with the accompanying interpretations and/or opinions. So, I rely upon the media only in so far as they can be relied upon and no further. [/quote]
Ok.
Was already made. Police interaction with non-suspects is an issue.
It’s a perfect opportunity to open up a dialogue about the issue.
[quote]
Actually it is the point. Your issues with how the police deal with citizens in general is entirely unrelated and you should not play into the hands of the left with this. This should be a time when you back the police because they are in the right and the mob has turned a non-incident into a vehicle for their subversive agenda.[/quote]
I’m not playing into anyone’s hands, lol… I do back the police in this case. I’ve said as much in several posts.
This recent story of the cop strangling this big black guy to death shows that video evidence doesn’t matter anyway. Makes me reconsider my position on Ferguson.
If there was no video evidence I wonder what the official story would have been.
You can hear him fading while trying to say “I can’t brehhh…” Ugh, that’s disturbing. It didn’t even seem like once he was unconscious, and presumably no longer breathing, anyone tried to help him.
My reasoning (which informed my wording above, because I am getting very good at covering my ass):
I find it reasonable to think that Brown acted like an aggressive and criminal thug with Wilson because in the only video of Brown I have ever seen, he was acting like an aggressive and criminal thug.
[/quote]
He was also a hip hop (ahem) “artist” and, from what I can decipher from the stream of conscious gibberish he has an interest in sadism and murdering people with firearms. He was a scumbag thug in my estimation and probably would’ve gone on to maim or kill somebody.
But finding something “reasonable” is not the same as finding him legally guilty of criminal offences. I’m as satisfied as one can be in such a situation, that Big Mike was guilty of assaulting a police officer and attempting to take his firearm(which I consider attempted murder from the subjective perspective of the officer). And I’m basing this assessment, not on some guess based upon Big Mike’s past behaviour but on the testimony of around a dozen witnesses.
I note the parallel. Now note the distinction I made about actual evidence in the form of witness testimonies. You’re guessing. And it’s a guess based on a personal animosity formed from his behaviour in an interview.
2 is not supported by any witnesses. 2 is a personal animosity you formed against the victim(Officer Wilson).
You wouldn’t convict him based on a guess as to what you think he said? How magnanimous of you.
Dealing with people “inappropriately” and even “aggressively” is entirely subjective and the terms are so vague as to be mere pejoratives. They’re the kind of terms that allow one to imply and suggest without committing oneself to specificities.
Who cares what Wilson said to him anyway? What kind of a nut tries to grab a cop’s gun, gets a chance to run then turns around and charges at the cop again? That’s precisely what the witnesses describe this maniac as doing. If you have some problem with police etiquette then deal with specifics instances of which evidence exists. I’ve found many cops to be antagonistic arseholes as I said above but this is a clear cut case of a clean kill. And it’s been turned into a playground for the left.
The interview you saw constitutes “incontrovertible evidence” that he was an “(vague pejorative term)” and a “bad cop”. You’re just trying to be provocative now. I know you guys on the left can’t help yourselves when there’s some mob action going on; I know you get whipped up in the frenzy, but thinking people are repulsed by the rabble and the looting and the arson and the race baiting. I’m inclined to give Wilson every benefit of the doubt under the circumstances. Only there isn’t any doubt. He did nothing wrong and your “incontrovertible” guessing amounts to nothing and merely reflects some underlying psychological impulse.
There was miscarriage of justice here in the form of your AG sending federal agents to investigate an officer and an entire police department over a fabricated story - another fabricated story like Trayvon Martin. Eric smells racial animus again and a massive federal operation is launched; investigations; millions upon millions of dollars; hundreds of federal agents and shyster civil rights lawyers on the public payroll acting like fucking NKVD or something. It’s frightening stuff. All initiated out of nowhere by these race hustlers and then taken advantage of by Obama and Holder to act out their pathological spite and delusions.
You’re either deliberately missing my point or too emotional about this whole thing to take it. Either way, it is so riddled with error and straw man – with plain and simple bullshit – that I am not going to go after every point. A few observations:
– You spent a bunch of time arguing that Brown was a bad guy and that Wilson, on the available evidence, was justified in his use of force. Why? This has nothing to do with anything I said, and you are more (far, far more) than smart enough to understand this. In fact, I said a bunch of times, and explicitly, that Brown was a bad guy, and Wilson’s use of force was justified. If you have any problem on that front, it isn’t with me.
– You mention the arson and the riots and the race-baiting. Why? It has nothing to do with this – nothing whatsoever – and, anyway, what exactly is there to say about it? “I’m really totally against rioting and arson guys?” Indeed I am. But that doesn’t make for good debate or argument, so I simply accept that we’re all against rape and cancer and rioting, and that we all believe that rape and cancer and rioting should be condemned unequivocally and fought vigorously. And then I move on to things that are interesting and useful to debate.
– “You’re just trying to be provocative now. I know you guys on the left can’t help yourselves when there’s some mob action going on; I know you get whipped up in the frenzy.” I say this in the tone of an e-friend who truly enjoys reading your posts, which are generally among the most provocative (the term is a compliment here) on this subforum: This belongs back up the ass whence it came. I am disgusted with the rabid, malicious Left/media and have said so plainly. As for the specific point of mine which occasioned the forequoted outburst: The simple fact is that we have one single recording of Wilson-as-officer, and in it Wilson is being
An asshole (which is not a vague term, but if you’d like to see what I mean when I say asshole, look up the video in question: That’s what an asshole is)
and
Stupid
and (related to [1] and [2] both)
A bad cop
Which is why I say that I know, to a moral certainty, that he had it in him to be an asshole, and stupid, and a bad cop. I know this because I have literally seen it, and have read the corroborative report – Wilson’s report. What I haven’t seen is Wilson being smart or professional (i.e., a good cop). And neither have you.
This is a valuable observation in the larger public policy discussion, particularly vis-a-vis whether or not we should be spending hundreds of millions of tax dollars on body cameras (we should, for about a hundred reasons). And it is
– None of the foregoing has anything to do with the fact that, on the evidence, Brown was an aggressive criminal and thug and general lowlife piece of shit whose death was entirely his own fault and whose killer deserved the freedom he is currently enjoying (or, more likely, not enjoying). Let me say that again: He who grabs at a cop’s gun, and then gets killed, has caused himself to die. He who does the killing has used force justifiably. Rioting and cancer and erectile dysfunction are all very, very, very bad. It’s just that I can hold all of these reasonable and correct thoughts in my head simultaneously. And you can too.
You can hear him fading while trying to say “I can’t brehhh…” Ugh, that’s disturbing. It didn’t even seem like once he was unconscious, and presumably no longer breathing, anyone tried to help him.
Yeah, that cop should be in jail. That is murder.
[/quote]
Yeah it’s tough.
JJ, who, being employed in the legal profession, has forgotten more about the law than I’ve read, linked to something I’ll look into. Maybe there are legal ins and outs (like I said, I only watched the video, haven’t followed the case, and am not a lawyer or anything close to a lawyer or particularly knowledgeable about the law).
That having been said, my simple, childlike moral view of the world says to me that when you’ve got your arms around an obese man’s throat, and he tells you repeatedly he can’t breathe, and your arm stays there, and he dies, you’ve murdered him. Regardless of what the rule-books and handbooks say.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Firstly, WHAT SORT OF BEHAVIOUR? Have you guys lost your minds? There was no antagonistic behaviour or being a dick or whatever. It’s a figment of your own imagination. [/quote]
You don’t know and can’t prove there was no antagonistic behavior. You weren’t there. I think you’re being purposefully naive if you think Wilson was all sun shine and rainbows while Brown was Satan reincarnated. I think most people have had both good and bad interactions with the police in their life.
I’m simply open to the possibility Wilson wasn’t acting like Mary mother of Jesus at the initial encounter.
[quote]
It’s to be expected that anyone, police officer or otherwise, is going to be less amenable to someone who looks like a thug and behaves like a thug. [/quote]
Which is an issue. Police officers aren’t paid to judge a person on their fashion choice or how they walk.
[quote]
That doesn’t mean I condone any kind of inappropriate behaviour. [/quote]
Ok.
[quote]
I’m just acknowledging an obvious fact. And it’s not an “issue.” A specific incidence is an issue. Pointing out a general fact about human interactions does not mean there is an issue to address. [/quote]
Police officers are caught on camera all the time being assholes. I would that an issue.
[quote]
I’m sufficiently qualified in research methodology to determine the relative weight to give to different types of sources. When a major media outlet directly quotes witness statements and I have no reason to doubt the validity of the quotes then I assess them and draw my own conclusions, which are often at odds with the accompanying interpretations and/or opinions. So, I rely upon the media only in so far as they can be relied upon and no further. [/quote]
Ok.
Was already made. Police interaction with non-suspects is an issue.
It’s a perfect opportunity to open up a dialogue about the issue.
Perfectly said, all the way through.
I think you and I are in complete agreement that Wilson should have walked, Brown caused his own death, and rioting and arson are bad.
That doesn’t mean that it is somehow terrible to suggest that the only thing we know about Wilson’s interactions with citizens involves his interacting unprofessionally, and that it is therefore perfectly reasonable to suggest that maybe he was just generally unprofessional, and – given that every corner of this country is shouting at itself about police/citizen interaction at this particular moment – it is a perfectly legitimate thing to discuss.
You’re either deliberately missing my point or too emotional about this whole thing to take it. Either way, it is so riddled with error and straw man – with plain and simple bullshit – that I am not going to go after every point. A few observations:
– You spent a bunch of time arguing that Brown was a bad guy and that Wilson, on the available evidence, was justified in his use of force. Why? This has nothing to do with anything I said, and you are more (far, far more) than smart enough to understand this. In fact, I said a bunch of times, and explicitly, exactly that – that Brown was a bad guy, and Wilson’s use of force was justified. If you have an problem on that front, it isn’t with me.
[/quote]
I was making the point that that’s all there is to this case. It should’ve made a paragraph in a local newspaper at most. If it deserves any discussion at all then it deserves discussion of it as a non-story and a non-issue that has been blown up into a fantasy by the mob and the AG and the President. The fact that your contribution is a conjecture about what Wilson might have said and so on reflects a preoccupation of some sort.
It has everything to do with this. What is the story here? The story here is the media and the mob inventing a fictitious story that fuelled race riots and the involvement of the federal government in the whole thing. That’s the story.
What is there to say about it? Plenty. Why it started; who was involved and why. As I said, that is the story here.
[quote]
– “You’re just trying to be provocative now. I know you guys on the left can’t help yourselves when there’s some mob action going on; I know you get whipped up in the frenzy.” I say this in the tone of an e-friend who truly enjoys reading your posts, which are generally among the most provocative (the term is a compliment here) on this subforum: This belongs back up the ass whence it came. I am disgusted with the rabid, malicious Left/media and have said so plainly. As for the specific point of mine which occasioned the forequoted outburst: The simple fact is that we have one single recording of Wilson-as-officer, and in it Wilson is being
An asshole (which is not a vague term, but if you’d like to see what I mean when I say asshole, look up the video in question: That’s what an asshole is)
and
Stupid
and (related to [1] and [2] both)
A bad cop
Which is why I say that I know, to a moral certainty, that he had it in him to be an asshole, and stupid, and a bad cop. I know this because I have literally seen it, and have read the corroborative report – Wilson’s report. What I haven’t seen is Wilson being smart or professional (i.e., a good cop). And neither have you.
This is a valuable observation in the larger public policy discussion, particularly vis-a-vis whether or not we should be spending hundreds of millions of tax dollars on body cameras (we should, for about a hundred reasons). And it is
– None of the foregoing has anything to do with the fact that, on the evidence, Brown was an aggressive criminal and thug and general lowlife piece of shit whose death was entirely his own fault and whose killer deserved the freedom he is currently enjoying (or, more likely, not enjoying). Let me say that again: He who grabs at a cop’s gun, and then gets killed, has caused himself to die. He who does the killing has used force justifiably. Rioting and cancer and erectile dysfunction are all very, very, very bad. It’s just that I can hold all of these reasonable and correct thoughts in my head simultaneously. And you can too.[/quote]
As I said, my point is that there is no story about police behaviour - that’s conjecture on your part and I think it’s kind of odd. I would’ve thought people would be - not stating the obvious and condemning the riots - but rather, discuss why such riots would occur over nothing. That is the story. Why the media, a large section of the public and the AG/President invented a phoney racial incident. The story is the circus that arrived in town after the shooting had taken place.
But anyway, you’ve seen a video of the cop; you’ve taken a dislike to him and you’re focused on that. Which I think is strange, as I said.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Uh oh SM, he rapped about shooting people, it must be true ;(
[/quote]
It’s true that his “lyrics” - if you could call them that - betrayed a sick mind. Yes, I know it’s common hip hop subject material, and that is indicative of widespread sickness of mind in that particular subculture.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
What is the story here? The story here is the media and the mob inventing a fictitious story that fuelled race riots and the involvement of the federal government in the whole thing. That’s the story.
[/quote]
It’s a story – the most important story, and one with which I completely and unambiguously agree. But, like I said, I am capable of holding these indirectly related but all relevant and important ideas in my head at once, and you are too.
I haven’t “taken a dislike to him.” He isn’t my roommate. I have observed that, on the only available and relevant evidence, Wilson went into this ordeal with an attitude and professionalism problem (i.e., as a cop who says stupid shit in stupid ways). You don’t think that’s relevant, particularly vis-a-vis the larger public-policy, tax-dollar question? That’s your own problem. You can go look at studies on police professionalism and incidents, on cameras and their relationship to the number of issues that arise in precincts wherein they’re adopted.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Besides, the cop had every reason to “be a dick” to some thug creep wandering in the middle of the street blocking traffic.[/quote]
No.
The cop had every reason and authority to do his duty. Being a dick isn’t a police officers duty that I’m aware of.[/quote]
Being a “dick” was JB’s phrase. I’m assuming he means something like, “what the fuck are doing in the middle of the road idiot?” Because that’s the kind of response I would expect from a cop if I was walking in the middle of the street blocking traffic. Especially if I had the appearance of a thug; pants falling down, shoelaces missing etc.
[/quote]
I would never make a comment like that to a citizen. It’s unprofessional and inflammatory. The only time I have used profanity in public is during a fight or a resisting arrest situation. If you present and conduct yourself in the proper manner, many violent incidents/complaints can be mitigated.
But that is almost a different issue all together. And I agree, thugs have rights too.
[/quote]
Agree 100%. Better to be a silver tongued devil and gain compliance verbally then having to go hands on to gain compliance. And it saves wear and tear on the body.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Uh oh SM, he rapped about shooting people, it must be true ;(
[/quote]
It’s true that his “lyrics” - if you could call them that - betrayed a sick mind. Yes, I know it’s common hip hop subject material, and that is indicative of widespread sickness of mind in that particular subculture.[/quote]
Come on SM, “sick” lyrics are in every genre of music. Elvis sang about an underage girl for God sake.