Can I interrupt this thread for some humor?
Lol
Brett and/or Clinton:
When someone first defies a simple verbal command, (“get out of the middle of the street/get off the street corner/move along”) and makes it clear they’re not going to comply ("no/fuck you/you’re not the boss of me), what’s going through your mind at that point? My simple understanding is that at this point your have the right to use open handed physical force to enforce compliance. I would also think (wrongly?) that this isn’t necessarily a road you want to go down. Really, you just want the guy to get the fuck out of the street; a physical altercation greatly increases the risk of something going wrong.
Once the guy says “no”, have you decided that he will be arrested? I guessing if it’s Barney, the town drunk, who you know to be harmless you might be willing to try and talk him out of the street, but if it’s a 19 year old man who won’t take his hands out of his pockets, you’d have a very different response…?
I guess my question is, how do you deal with a non-compliant but non-aggressive citizen?
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Can I interrupt this thread for some humor?[/quote]
still funny but
*executive action.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Uh oh SM, he rapped about shooting people, it must be true ;(
[/quote]
It’s true that his “lyrics” - if you could call them that - betrayed a sick mind. Yes, I know it’s common hip hop subject material, and that is indicative of widespread sickness of mind in that particular subculture.[/quote]
Come on SM, “sick” lyrics are in every genre of music. Elvis sang about an underage girl for God sake.[/quote]
Cash sang about shootin’ folks. Damn that Johnny Cash, he was horrible.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Brett and/or Clinton:
When someone first defies a simple verbal command, (“get out of the middle of the street/get off the street corner/move along”) and makes it clear they’re not going to comply ("no/fuck you/you’re not the boss of me), what’s going through your mind at that point? My simple understanding is that at this point your have the right to use open handed physical force to enforce compliance. I would also think (wrongly?) that this isn’t necessarily a road you want to go down. Really, you just want the guy to get the fuck out of the street; a physical altercation greatly increases the risk of something going wrong.
Once the guy says “no”, have you decided that he will be arrested? I guessing if it’s Barney, the town drunk, who you know to be harmless you might be willing to try and talk him out of the street, but if it’s a 19 year old man who won’t take his hands out of his pockets, you’d have a very different response…?
I guess my question is, how do you deal with a non-compliant but non-aggressive citizen? [/quote]
I think this is an adult diaper question…
Depends.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Brett and/or Clinton:
When someone first defies a simple verbal command, (“get out of the middle of the street/get off the street corner/move along”) and makes it clear they’re not going to comply ("no/fuck you/you’re not the boss of me), what’s going through your mind at that point? My simple understanding is that at this point your have the right to use open handed physical force to enforce compliance. I would also think (wrongly?) that this isn’t necessarily a road you want to go down. Really, you just want the guy to get the fuck out of the street; a physical altercation greatly increases the risk of something going wrong.
Once the guy says “no”, have you decided that he will be arrested? I guessing if it’s Barney, the town drunk, who you know to be harmless you might be willing to try and talk him out of the street, but if it’s a 19 year old man who won’t take his hands out of his pockets, you’d have a very different response…?
I guess my question is, how do you deal with a non-compliant but non-aggressive citizen? [/quote]
I am interested in the answer to this question as well.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Brett and/or Clinton:
When someone first defies a simple verbal command, (“get out of the middle of the street/get off the street corner/move along”) and makes it clear they’re not going to comply ("no/fuck you/you’re not the boss of me), what’s going through your mind at that point? My simple understanding is that at this point your have the right to use open handed physical force to enforce compliance. I would also think (wrongly?) that this isn’t necessarily a road you want to go down. Really, you just want the guy to get the fuck out of the street; a physical altercation greatly increases the risk of something going wrong.
Once the guy says “no”, have you decided that he will be arrested? I guessing if it’s Barney, the town drunk, who you know to be harmless you might be willing to try and talk him out of the street, but if it’s a 19 year old man who won’t take his hands out of his pockets, you’d have a very different response…?
I guess my question is, how do you deal with a non-compliant but non-aggressive citizen? [/quote]
Good question and your reasoning is pretty accurate. I will elaborate further when I have time.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Brett and/or Clinton:
When someone first defies a simple verbal command, (“get out of the middle of the street/get off the street corner/move along”) and makes it clear they’re not going to comply ("no/fuck you/you’re not the boss of me), what’s going through your mind at that point? My simple understanding is that at this point your have the right to use open handed physical force to enforce compliance. I would also think (wrongly?) that this isn’t necessarily a road you want to go down. Really, you just want the guy to get the fuck out of the street; a physical altercation greatly increases the risk of something going wrong.
Once the guy says “no”, have you decided that he will be arrested? I guessing if it’s Barney, the town drunk, who you know to be harmless you might be willing to try and talk him out of the street, but if it’s a 19 year old man who won’t take his hands out of his pockets, you’d have a very different response…?
I guess my question is, how do you deal with a non-compliant but non-aggressive citizen? [/quote]
As officers we are trained to de-escalate volatile situations and achieve voluntary compliance. So what happens when a suspect becomes verbally non-compliant? We have the legal right to escalte the matter one-step above to achieve compiance. The next step for us is “soft empty hand control”. Which would be a hands-on arrest. If he resists, the use of force escalates.
But in this sitatuion, Brown was committing a city ordinance violation, “jaywalking”. He was NOT committing a criminal offense I believe, which would be obstructing traffic. The elements of this offense would have to include impeding the flow of traffic. So, jaywalking is petty, BUT the officer gave Brown a lawful command. (** this is according to my city)
How you simply talk to someone or “command” them with the use of profanity will likely determine the outcome. But herein lies the difficult question. What if (just suggesting) that Wilson gave Brown a command such as “Hey, can you move out of the road for me?” And Brown turned around and said “F*** You!”
What then? Do we let people openly disobey and respect out lawful authority? Little things like this empower criminals. “Oh they ain’t gonna do sh**!” They will say to the people with two people fighting in a mob in front of 2 officers. It’s the “give an inch, take a mile” train of thought. Police authority is the bedmark of a stable society. When the criminals don’t care, openly disrespect the police and the police are contrainted from enforcing minor offenses due to fear, that takes us down a very bad path.
So sometimes, I might just watch the guy, and unless traffic comes and there is a safety hazzard, I would let it go. I would stick to more improtant matters. That is just my simple take. Others may disagree.
For examples only:
http://www.policetest.info/FORCE_CONTINUUM_POLICE_USE_OF_FORCE.htm
@Brett - Wilson describes how Brown and Johnson were impeding traffic and described vehicles approaching and unable to pass. Presumably, the drivers were too intimidated to blow their horns or tell them to move off the road.
That is precisely what did happen.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
@Brett - Wilson describes how Brown and Johnson were impeding traffic and described vehicles approaching and unable to pass. Presumably, the drivers were too intimidated to blow their horns or tell them to move off the road.
That is precisely what did happen.
[/quote]
Then not only he should have acted, he is required to act if it’s a public safety matter. He then gives a lawful order… Tries to get out of his car, gets assaulted, it goes from there.
Yes, this is different from merely jaywalking and the officer saying something flippant. Different entirely.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Uh oh SM, he rapped about shooting people, it must be true ;(
[/quote]
It’s true that his “lyrics” - if you could call them that - betrayed a sick mind. Yes, I know it’s common hip hop subject material, and that is indicative of widespread sickness of mind in that particular subculture.[/quote]
Come on SM, “sick” lyrics are in every genre of music. Elvis sang about an underage girl for God sake.[/quote]
Whoa dude. We can compare a LOT of things but Elvis and gangsta rap ain’t some of 'em.[/quote]
It was just an example not a comparison 
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Brett and/or Clinton:
When someone first defies a simple verbal command, (“get out of the middle of the street/get off the street corner/move along”) and makes it clear they’re not going to comply ("no/fuck you/you’re not the boss of me), what’s going through your mind at that point? My simple understanding is that at this point your have the right to use open handed physical force to enforce compliance. I would also think (wrongly?) that this isn’t necessarily a road you want to go down. Really, you just want the guy to get the fuck out of the street; a physical altercation greatly increases the risk of something going wrong.
Once the guy says “no”, have you decided that he will be arrested? I guessing if it’s Barney, the town drunk, who you know to be harmless you might be willing to try and talk him out of the street, but if it’s a 19 year old man who won’t take his hands out of his pockets, you’d have a very different response…?
I guess my question is, how do you deal with a non-compliant but non-aggressive citizen? [/quote]
As officers we are trained to de-escalate volatile situations and achieve voluntary compliance. So what happens when a suspect becomes verbally non-compliant? We have the legal right to escalte the matter one-step above to achieve compiance. The next step for us is “soft empty hand control”. Which would be a hands-on arrest. If he resists, the use of force escalates.
But in this sitatuion, Brown was committing a city ordinance violation, “jaywalking”. He was NOT committing a criminal offense I believe, which would be obstructing traffic. The elements of this offense would have to include impeding the flow of traffic. So, jaywalking is petty, BUT the officer gave Brown a lawful command. (** this is according to my city)
How you simply talk to someone or “command” them with the use of profanity will likely determine the outcome. But herein lies the difficult question. What if (just suggesting) that Wilson gave Brown a command such as “Hey, can you move out of the road for me?” And Brown turned around and said “F*** You!”
What then? Do we let people openly disobey and respect out lawful authority? Little things like this empower criminals. “Oh they ain’t gonna do sh**!” They will say to the people with two people fighting in a mob in front of 2 officers. It’s the “give an inch, take a mile” train of thought. Police authority is the bedmark of a stable society. When the criminals don’t care, openly disrespect the police and the police are contrainted from enforcing minor offenses due to fear, that takes us down a very bad path.
So sometimes, I might just watch the guy, and unless traffic comes and there is a safety hazzard, I would let it go. I would stick to more improtant matters. That is just my simple take. Others may disagree. [/quote]
I think Brett summed it up nicely.
[quote]clinton131 wrote:
I think Brett summed it up nicely. [/quote]
Thanks to both of you.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Uh oh SM, he rapped about shooting people, it must be true ;(
[/quote]
It’s true that his “lyrics” - if you could call them that - betrayed a sick mind. Yes, I know it’s common hip hop subject material, and that is indicative of widespread sickness of mind in that particular subculture.[/quote]
Come on SM, “sick” lyrics are in every genre of music. Elvis sang about an underage girl for God sake.[/quote]
You’re comparing Elvis to hip hop? A meaningful comparison would be the music black people wrote and performed in the 50’s to the sick, stream of consciousness gibberish that passes for music in most of the black community today. Duke Ellington; Ella Fitzgerald. That’s music. Hip hop is infantile crap and demonstrates the cultural decline of African Americans. And I’m not saying they’re the only people in cultural decline. White folk are pulling from the lowest common denominator too.
Anyway, Earth Angel by The Penguins:
Compare the lyrics and the music to the misogynistic, hyper-masculine stream of consciousness gibberish of hip hop. The stark contrast is demonstrative of the general cultural decline of Western civilisation over the last half century or so.
Elvis, was a hero to most . . .
