[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Do you think that’s appropriate for a public servant?
[/quote]
Ideally no. But in this case I don’t believe Wilson’s behaviour would’ve made any difference. If he said, “I’m terribly sorry sir, but I’m afraid I’m going to have to place you in custody” - I’m sure Brown would’ve responded in a similar manner. The problem here is not cop’s roadside manner. It’s a case of a criminal who didn’t want to get arrested and who was in a crazy, violent mood.
[quote]
In reality I would also expect that type of speech as well, which is part of the problem. [/quote]
The only problem here is the bullshit story the media invented and the Justice Department’s egregiously unethical behaviour and their attempts to indict an innocent cop with absolutely no evidence that he did anything wrong whatsoever. Show me a legitimate real case of a cop behaving badly and I’ll agree with you. But the Brown shooting is fiction. The cop did nothing wrong; he risked his life doing his duty and now his life has been ruined. He’s left the force and has no income. He’ll probably have to take steps to hide his identity and start a new life from scratch. It’s an absolute disgrace what they did to him. [/quote]
1.) I’ve got no problem with you believing that. We will of course never know. I am not siding with Brown.
2.) How public servants (not just police officers) interact with citizens is an issue, big picture. Wilson’s actions were justified and the media made something out of nothing, I agree.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Just a thought: People are mistaken when they start asking if brown deserved to die. That isn’t the question. Him dying wasn’t a punishment. The question is, did the cop have the right to defend himself with deadly force? He wasn’t shot because he was doing wrong, he was shot because he was a threat to the life of another. [/quote]
In the realm of pure thought experiment – and that’s where we are right now, because, as I’ve tried to make clear, I am at the moment absolutely and unambiguously disgusted with the Left and the media and all the other usual suspects whom I’m usually at least partially defending (though I commend the Washpost and the NY Times for running rational and correct assessments in their news pages) – I think that if you could run an experiment wherein you tested the reactions of millions of different people to millions of interactions with the same cop under the same initial conditions, you would find that a profane and barked-out opening line is measurably likelier to lead to a problem than a professional and appropriate one. This is not a justification, it is merely a hypothesis.
As for the specific case, who knows what would have happened? Counterfactuals are tricky in ever sense of the term. This doesn’t change the simple fact that Brown is responsible for his own death, given the physical evidence and its corroboration of the exculpatory (vis-a-vis Wilson) testimonials. And it doesn’t change my related assessment that, even if Brown hadn’t ever met Wilson, he was headed for some kind of massive calamity if he stayed on the path he was on.
I put in bold the portions I disagree with. Here is why:
1.) I don’t agree that a police office gets to be a dick just because someone is breaking a minor law (in this case Jay Walking).
[/quote]
I never said cops have a right to “be a dick”. I merely said, from the evidence that I’ve seen it is understandable or “to be expected” is probably a better word, that a confrontational tone and/or words would be forthcoming.
I should point out that JB linked to the court records with notes, however it’s literally hundreds of pages and I’ve not read through the whole thing. I’m relying on media citations of the relevant evidence. And I have not seen any evidence that the cop did anything that escalated the situation. If he did so then please point to specifics otherwise we’re talking about vague accusations; I can’t really respond specifically without specific evidence being cited.
In this particular situation? Again, you would need to specify what words and what circumstances. From what I’ve seen I don’t see any indication that Wilson’s “word choices” had any influence on events. If you think otherwise then what words? When? Under what circumstances?
Again, I haven’t seen any evidence that he(Wilson) was being a dick. And the evidence indicates that Brown was not willing to be taken into custody; not even with pretty pleases with cherries on top.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Besides, the cop had every reason to “be a dick” to some thug creep wandering in the middle of the street blocking traffic.[/quote]
No.
The cop had every reason and authority to do his duty. Being a dick isn’t a police officers duty that I’m aware of.[/quote]
Being a “dick” was JB’s phrase. I’m assuming he means something like, “what the fuck are doing in the middle of the road idiot?” Because that’s the kind of response I would expect from a cop if I was walking in the middle of the street blocking traffic. Especially if I had the appearance of a thug; pants falling down, shoelaces missing etc.
[/quote]
I would never make a comment like that to a citizen. It’s unprofessional and inflammatory. The only time I have used profanity in public is during a fight or a resisting arrest situation. If you present and conduct yourself in the proper manner, many violent incidents/complaints can be mitigated.
But that is almost a different issue all together. And I agree, thugs have rights too.
I’ve just had a look through the different witness statements and the only account of Wilson being verbally aggressive came from Dorian Johnson, the thug with Brown who was caught lying in his testimony. This is Wilson’s account:
[quote] Wilson’s account:
"Wilson said that he had just left a call involving a sick person when he heard on his radio that there was a theft in progress at a local convenience store. Wilson heard the description of the suspects and soon after observed two black males walking down the middle of the street. Wilson pulled up to them and told the two to walk on the sidewalk, and Johnson replied, “we’re almost to our destination”. As they passed his window, Brown said “fuck what you have to say”…
[/quote]
As far as I can tell without going through hundreds of pages of testimony, Wilson’s account is the only account of what was actually said in the initial confrontation, with the exception of Dorian Johnson’s account which has since been exposed as a complete fabrication.
Essentially, there is no evidence whatsoever that Wilson was being a dick. In my opinion, people seem to be keen to find some criticism of Wilson when there is no legitimate cause for any criticism. Again, I haven’t read the hundreds of pages of witness statements; I’m relying upon media sources that have quoted and paraphrased the relevant material. So unless I’ve missed something(have I?), Wilson was not being a dick or “barking” orders. On the contrary, the evidence is that he “told the two…to walk on the sidewalk”.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Besides, the cop had every reason to “be a dick” to some thug creep wandering in the middle of the street blocking traffic.[/quote]
No.
The cop had every reason and authority to do his duty. Being a dick isn’t a police officers duty that I’m aware of.[/quote]
Being a “dick” was JB’s phrase. I’m assuming he means something like, “what the fuck are doing in the middle of the road idiot?” Because that’s the kind of response I would expect from a cop if I was walking in the middle of the street blocking traffic. Especially if I had the appearance of a thug; pants falling down, shoelaces missing etc.
[/quote]
I would never make a comment like that to a citizen. It’s unprofessional and inflammatory. The only time I have used profanity in public is during a fight or a resisting arrest situation. If you present and conduct yourself in the proper manner, many violent incidents/complaints can be mitigated.
But that is almost a different issue all together. And I agree, thugs have rights too.
[/quote]
It’s a moot point anyway because there’s no evidence that Wilson said anything of the sort. For some reason a number of posters have latched onto the idea that Wilson was aggressive and antagonistic in his initial confrontation with Brown and Johnson. I’ve just gone over the reported witness accounts and there’s no evidence that Wilson was antagonistic or unprofessional.
As a side note, I’ve had dealings with police that were extremely hostile and antagonistic. From my experience it’s pretty common. The Police Force attracts people who are bullies. Especially in recent years when the recruiting standards have lowered and the force is having trouble recruiting people and keeping people in the job once they join. My mother used to teach new recruits at the academy and she said 80% of new recruits are semi-literate kids fresh from high school. She used to show me examples of some of their assignments; illiterate gibberish. They’re really pulling from the bottom of the barrel nowadays. Most leave the force within two years of joining. She said, the smart ones can’t stand it and end up leaving because they’re working with idiots and scumbags for the most part. I don’t have any animosity towards police in general - a number of my relatives were cops. But the force is in a shambles nowadays in Australia.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I never said cops have a right to “be a dick”. [/quote]
I never said that you said the above.
You have; however, made it clear you think it’s appropriate (or at least acceptable) for a police officer to exhibit this sort of behavior when speaking to a citizen (not even a suspect) especially if they look like a thug.
I wholeheartedly disagree.
[quote]
I merely said, from the evidence that I’ve seen it is understandable or “to be expected” is probably a better word, that a confrontational tone and/or words would be forthcoming. [/quote]
I’m saying the fact that it is “to be expected” is an issue.
[quote]
I should point out that JB linked to the court records with notes, however it’s literally hundreds of pages and I’ve not read through the whole thing. I’m relying on media citations of the relevant evidence. [/quote]
You’re relying on the media?
[quote]
And I have not seen any evidence that the cop did anything that escalated the situation. If he did so then please point to specifics otherwise we’re talking about vague accusations; I can’t really respond specifically without specific evidence being cited. [/quote]
It doesn’t surprise me there is no evidence. Wilson may or may not have used inappropriate language. That is not my point.
[quote]
In this particular situation? Again, you would need to specify what words and what circumstances. From what I’ve seen I don’t see any indication that Wilson’s “word choices” had any influence on events. If you think otherwise then what words? When? Under what circumstances? [/quote]
I’m talking more about the big picture. How the police interact with citizens.
It’s a moot point anyway because there’s no evidence that Wilson said anything of the sort. For some reason a number of posters have latched onto the idea that Wilson was aggressive and antagonistic in his initial confrontation with Brown and Johnson. I’ve just gone over the reported witness accounts and there’s no evidence that Wilson was antagonistic or unprofessional.
[/quote]
My reasoning (which informed my wording above, because I am getting very good at covering my ass):
I find it reasonable to think that Brown acted like an aggressive and criminal thug with Wilson because in the only video of Brown I have ever seen, he was acting like an aggressive and criminal thug.
I find it reasonable to think that Wilson acted like an asshole cop to Brown because in the only video of Wilson I have ever seen, he was acting like an asshole cop. [Note the parallel to (1)]
(2) is supported by a less reliable witness than is (1) [though both have a clear incentive to paint with the brushes they chose] and hence would and should not stand in an official or legal setting. That is to say that if I were going to decide Wilson’s fate in some hypothetical court for violating some hypothetical law against a cop’s being an asshole by barking orders or swearing at people, I would not convict him in this case. This point exists in that airy realm of what’s known and what’s believed and what’s proved and what’s evidenced and all of that.
In the less airy realm of “things I’d bet on if I were forced to,” b can coexist with my reasonable assumption, based on the only relevant evidence available, that Wilson deals with people aggressively and inappropriately. At the very least, I find it distinctly possible that Wilson’s account of his words to Brown were for obvious reasons watered down – because, again, I have only seen Wilson interact with the public once, and he was an asshole, by which evidence I conclude that he is an asshole[/b]. Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying: On the evidence available to me, which is very small but which also does exist and is incontrovertible, Darren Wilson is an asshole and a bad cop.
None of this detracts from the simple fact that no reasonable and fair observer can see the evidence and decide that he (Wilson) should be in prison or that there was some grave miscarriage of justice here.
But there are peripheral things that we can talk about – and that we should talk about – even if they are things we believe rather than things we can prove, or things we suspect rather than things we believe.
To put my last post in a different, and probably better, and definitely simpler way:
Based on what I have seen about Wilson’s demeanor and comportment, I would wonder whether he’d been a dick to Brown – and conclude that he probably was – whether Johnson had said so or not. Because I’ve seen him talk to one citizen, and he came out of that conversation with the distinct air of a stupid guy, a bad cop, and just generally a little asshole.
Based on what I know about this one – which is basically that I’ve see the video – the protests this time are going to be justified and legitimate. What I saw was a guy getting killed for just about about no reason, with a choke-hold that is against NYPD policy, over the sale of a fucking cigarette.
I don’t care if the officer called Brown names - no matter WHAT he said, it doesn’t justify Brown ATTACKING and HITTING him (or going for his gun…) WORDS are not a reason to attack ANYONE, for that matter. Brown attacked a POLICE OFFICER. If the officer called him an idiot, I’d say Brown proved him right.
The sky is blue, water is wet and SOME cops are fucking dicks.
I’ve gotten my ass beat by cops multiple times (if I had a dollar everytime a cop was rude to me, I’d take the entire forum out to Morton’s). I sure as hell wasn’t stupid enough to go for their gun!
Based on what I know about this one – which is basically that I’ve see the video – the protests this time are going to be justified and legitimate. What I saw was a guy getting killed for just about about no reason, with a choke-hold that is against NYPD policy, over the sale of a fucking cigarette.[/quote]
And people wonder why I’m not into government getting involved in things.
Who gives police power? Government.
Should we have police? Absolutely.
Should someone be able to stand on the sidewalk and sell a cigarette? Fuck yes.
Should a cop have any reason to even do anything other than nod and say good day? No.
This is what happens when cops can live by special rules, and the people are regulated (literally) to death.
The sky is blue, water is wet and SOME cops are fucking dicks.
I’ve gotten my ass beat by cops multiple times (if I had a dollar everytime a cop was rude to me, I’d take the entire forum out to Morton’s). I sure as hell wasn’t stupid enough to go for their gun! [/quote]
Pretty much this.
I doubt Wilson is some devout democrat racist (but I repeat myself) who woke up that morning thinking “I’m gonna kill me some black folks today, because I be hatin’ them.” But I don’t doubt he has a chip on his shoulder and acted like God’s gift to the world at least that morning if not everyday.
I doubt Brown suddenly went crazy and thought “today is a good day to be a true gangsta and fuck up a cop”. But I don’t doubt he was bent on not being “disrespected” or “talked down too” and made a piss, piss poor judgment that got him killed.
I just watched the video. What’s your take on that, Brett?
I see a guy who’s obviously been harassed before, being taken down and choked to death by multiple police officers while repeatedly communicating the officers that he in unable to breath. But they kept going…
And this resulted in no indictment? Not even a TRIAL?
The Brown case was obviously some Media-fueled bullshit. This is a legitimate reason for a community to be upset.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
The Brown case was obviously some Media-fueled bullshit. This is a legitimate reason for a community to be upset.
[/quote]
This, I think, is the reason for pushing the Brown incident on America. The shooting was so obviously justifiable that legitimate claims of police brutality and poor judgment will be easy to dismiss, or at least make seem foolish, for a while.